Dragon Ball Super: positives and negatives

[ronaldnorth_03]

Name seven positives and seven negatives of Dragon Ball Super. What could be better, what surprised you the most ...

[Nokra]

P: ...UI??
N: Pretty much everything.

[Grimlock]

Name seven positives

• More love/screentime to Super Saiyan 2.
• Addition of an entity that rules the Megaverse.
• Kaio-ken brought back.
• Final Kamehameha was used.
• The first 25 minutes of its movie.
• ???
• ???

and seven negatives of Dragon Ball Super.

• Lack of exploration.
• Safe zone.
• Wasted opportunities.
• Tournaments.
• Retellings.
• Old characters unnecessarily returning.
• Stuck in the same era.

Dishonorable mentions:

• Too much nostalgia.
• Characters don't age.
• The other 75 minutes of its movie.

What could be better, what surprised you the most ..

It would be better to have a new series that had some substance. It surprised me that all we got was a new series that all it could deliver was some mediocre stuff at best.

[wolflonnie]

Positives

- Vegeta's development.
- The Zamasu arc.
- Creative techniques and battles (anime especially).
- Screentime to some old, forgotten characters (A17 especially).
- Interesting new concepts and lore being introduced (GoDs, angels, universes, etc.).
- Way more laid-back than DBZ.
- Awesome new characters (Hit, Zamasu, Black, Jiren, etc.).

Negatives

- Sometimes bad pacing (ToP especially).
- Confusing power scaling, as opposed to the, for the most parts, precise one in DBZ.
- Missed opportunities (Vegetto interacting with the Z-Warriors, better motivation for Zamasu, etc.).
- Majin Buu's mistreatment (excluding the Moro arc, and the battle in the Exibition match).
- Bad animation sometimes (anime) / Bad paneling composition sometimes (manga)

Can't reach 7.

[Luso Saiyan]

+ Toriyama's involvement
+ Expansion of the world and lore
+ Generally entertaining
+ Future Trunks arc
+ Universe 6 Tournament arc
+ Bridging material between arcs
+ Inconsequential fan pandering

- Consequential fan pandering
- Too many episodes for what the stories call for
- Animation should be better
- Kale
- Tournament of Power's episode length
- BoG and RoF retellings
- Filler

[Shaddy]

+ Great new characters in the forms of Hit, Zamasu/Black, many of the TOP participants, and the gods/angels if you count them as Super rather than BoG
+ When one of the star animators is actually on an episode, the movement is better than any other TV Dragon Ball series
+ Ultra Instinct is a unique transformation and the limits placed on it make it less easy to abuse than earlier forms
+ Goku and Vegeta's friendship dynamic is always good for a laugh
+ Feels more fun and light than Z which could be downright bleak at many points
+ The interrim/SOL/"filler" episodes are usually a lot of fun
+ The focus on atmosphere and direction in the pre-TOP episodes gives a unique feel no other DB series has
+ Sumitomo's score is great after you get past the Freeza arc
+ We had an arc where Piccolo, Krillin, Tien, 17, 18, and Roshi actually got to contribute to shit, even if detractors like to call every opponent that doesn't fight a saiyan "fodder"
+ Less boring and slow than GT

- Character designs, color choices and general aesthetic is kind of clinical and boring to look at, along with just being broken in some cases
- Schedule fuckups mean many episodes animate like scrunched up balls of paper
- Brought out the worst of the fan theory/power scaling/youtube clickbait fandom
- Writing was all over the place, being great in one episode and Namek Z filler-level in the next
- Clearly the team was not coordinated due to the aforementioned scheduling and the entire first half of the show lacks a consistent directorial vision
- Held back by the status quo, big time
- Fueled a whole hoard of misinformation, lies, misreadings of the original material, and toxicity in the fanbase that has yet to subside

[Kataphrut]

Positives

1. Shifting focus from saving-th-world stories back to martial arts development- one of the few benefits of its 10-year time skip setting
2. Toning down the rigid adherence to vertical progression and power-scaling- characters are allowed to "step outside their lanes" more than before
3. Lots of cool, interesting new characters- Champa, Hit, Goku Black, Zamasu, Future Mai, Caulifla, Kale, Cheelai and Lemo are the standouts. And I'll stick up for Jiren and Ribrianne if nobody else will
4. Ultra Instinct is the best transformation in Dragon Ball.
5. Really good development and characterisation for Freeza. If he has to be Dragon Ball's Joker, then this is the best possible version he could be.
6. Good filler/slice of life content - stuff like baseball and Dr Slump are fun, but other stuff like the Krillin, Saiyaman and Hit two-parters have some surprisingly good character work
7. Interesting Toriyama lore- his version of hell, GoD/Kai/Angel pairing, Zeno, multiverse, all interesting stuff

Negatives

1. The art style is garbage- it was made for Heroes cards, not a running narrative. Hard to rewatch after DBS: Broly.
2. Similarly, production issues are really obvious. The first three arcs are plain awful, the other two are better but there are still times you can really see the strings.
3. Too formulaic- Goku and Vegeta are training with Whis while Beerus is making food jokes, they learn about a bad guy causing mischief, they go to where the bad guy is, and take turns fighting him. Which Super arc am I describing?
4. SImilar to the above, doesn't do enough with the two leads. Most arcs usually have a supporting player to get development (Freeza, Future Trunks, Gohan, 17) but Goku and Vegeta are stuck in a rut. They tried with the ToP with them branching off into different powerups, but went right back to formula afterward. Also, Vegeta's powerup was shit.
5. Vegeta's powerup was shit.
6. Characters not aging. If you're not going to use Goten and Trunks, might as well stop making them look like kid sidekicks. You've got the Universe 6 Saiyans for that.
7. Dodgy pacing- Future Trunks has about ten episodes of buildup to going back to the future, then they spend the next ten ping-ponging between the two timelines. ToP takes up nearly half the length of the show and spends 35 episodes on a 48-minute tournament.

[CJStriker_CBR]

Positives

3. Lots of cool, interesting new characters- Champa, Hit, Goku Black, Zamasu, Future Mai, Caulifla, Kale, Cheelai and Lemo are the standouts. And I'll stick up for Jiren and Ribrianne if nobody else will

Well Said Kataphrut and You know me, You are not alone on Sticking up for Ribrianne , thanks for sticking up for her Like you have done and it is good to stick up for Jiren too!

[supersaiyanZero]

+ When one of the star animators is actually on an episode, the movement is better than any other TV Dragon Ball series

Not really. We got a lot of flashy fluid animation towards the end that still lacked any sort of impact and completely disregarded the use of composition, pacing, and colors that made watching the original Z series a treat. (I'm not sure if this falls on the director or the animator, from my personal experience I would say that this is a directorial problem) To be honest, when one of the "star animators" was on an episode it's saving grace was that it reminded us of what Z was like - which is why everybody went bonkers when Takahashi completely ignored the current character designs and went with the designs we've seen in Z.

[Dbzfan94]

Positives
-Limit Break x Survivor is a good opening
-Takahashi’s episodes were really well animated
-the first 8 or so episodes of the Black arc were good
-The soundtrack had some great tracks
-Baby Pan is adorable
-Seeing 17 fight again was nice
-Some of the slice of life filler was great

Negatives
-Everything else

[Shaddy]

Not really. We got a lot of flashy fluid animation towards the end that still lacked any sort of impact and completely disregarded the use of composition, pacing, and colors that made watching the original Z series a treat. (I'm not sure if this falls on the director or the animator, from my personal experience I would say that this is a directorial problem) To be honest, when one of the "star animators" was on an episode it's saving grace was that it reminded us of what Z was like - which is why everybody went bonkers when Takahashi completely ignored the current character designs and went with the designs we've seen in Z.

I'm not talking about the character art, that's why I said the movement. And the other shows don't really move the same. Z in general could be pretty choppy and a lot of it's action didn't always feel impressive, even if there were a lot of decent cuts overall. Rarely did you see something go above and beyond to look as good as some of the best animation of that era, unless it was someone like Naotoshi Shida, or something in a movie.

Takahashi isn't even that incredible an animator -- he's good, very good, but people get worked up over his character art instead of the way it moves. Either way, there's plenty of good artists on the show -- Shida and Tate having improved and refined their styles post-Z to become as memorable as they are, along with people who haven't worked on DB before like Onishi, Karasawa, Miuma, Yong-Ce, Yokoya, Manabe, Nikaido, Higashide and Otsuka. There's plenty more, but they're all talented and not really lacking anything the Z team had (also, a ton of the Z people are still here). They proved that even more with the Broly film, which largely had similar staff to the show with the huge exception of Shintani's character designs.

If you can point to which person or what technique is gone that validates this "it has no impact" claim, without going "just look at it tho" like every other time you argue with me, I'd love to hear it. I'm not here to debate which is better. Sudden bursts of great animation and steady streams of okay work are both valid models -- but the idea that it's only good because it looks like the other show -- doesn't really hold water in practice, and is mostly just insulting to the staff. Which isn't a surprise, I've seen your posts, but if you can't actually hold it up in argument it's not a great look.

[The gr]

Going with the Anime version.

Positives
-UI was a cool concept especially Omen.
-It's great seeing characters like Krillin, Piccolo, #17, etc in action rather than sitting down.
-Black and Zamasu were cool villain with decent motives.
-The animation got really good nearing the end
-Limit Break X survivor is a great opening even the ending weren't that bad aside from the food one
-Great SOL episode's

Negatives
-A weak start with the unnecessary retellings
-U6 tournament felt very boring aside from the Hit and Cabba match.
-Most of the universes felt underdeveloped
-Majin buu was horribly handled here
-Some filler episode were terrible like the Dojo, poachers, etc.
-Some unnecessary callbacks.
-Being stuck at the 10 year gap.

What could be better
More planning with the story and schedule for the Animation as well better CD.

What surprised you the most ...
Evil Goku actually being thing that wasn't bad and amazing animation at the TOP.

[OhHiRenan]

Positives

1. Battle of Gods as a story is genuinely very good and about on par with the original manga in terms of quality.)

2. The slice of life episodes tend to be genuinely good and offer unique glimpses into the daily lives of Dragon Ball characters.

3. Goku Black and Zamasu are both good villains, and the only ones from GT or Super that can really compare to the original antagonists.

4. Ultra Instinct is a good idea that's handled well in both the anime & manga.

5. A more diverse and developed cast of female characters who actually get to contribute meaningfully.

6. The Moro arc is shaping up to be the best thing to come out of Super.

7. When the Tournament of Power is good, it's really good.

Negatives

1. When the Tournament of Power is bad, it's really bad. It's one of the worst arcs in the franchise.

2. The retellings are inferior to their movies in just about every way imaginable, and Resurrection F already wasn't good.

3. The anime started and ended way too slow paced.

4. The manga is too fast paced up until the Moro arc.

5. Vegeta's regressed as a character and his "development" is completely derivative of his best moments in the original series.

6. Goku's character assassination in the anime's version of the Goku Black arc sours an otherwise fine story arc.

7. Fight choreography is severely lacking on a whole. Only a few fights stand out.

[Lord Beerus]

+ Has that distinct Toriyama charm when it comes to comedy or general storytelling in both mediums
+ Some of the inconsequential episodes in the anime are the best in show
+ Wonderful expansion on the Dragon Ball cosmos
+ Mostly good new characters introduced
+ The debut and concept of Ultra Instinct
+ Some of the best animation in all of Dragon Ball is scattered across the anime
+ The manga is generally very good.

- Production issues plague 1/3 of the anime
- Some elements of the Battle Of Gods retelling in the anime are terribly handled
- The second half of the Resurrection F retelling in the anime is the dirt fucking worst
- All of the Copy Vegeta arc episode
- The soundtrack is very bipolar
- The story, in both mediums, at times runs on "Rule Of Cool" to its detriment
- Super in general takes place during a period in Dragon Ball's overall narrative where it's impossible to create tension.