Zamasu's arc -- anime vs manga

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Re: Zamasu's arc -- anime vs manga

Post by ahill1 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:47 am

I think both mediums share its flaws. In the manga, we have Goku's pretty contrived mastery of SSJ allowing him to fight on par with Merged Zamasu when minutes earlier he was praising Vegeta's mastery of the transformations. Trunks' healing power, while helping to riddle the mess of Mai surviving Black's blast and helping reducce the plot armour, also comes off as contrived, since why wouldn't Kaioshin tell him the goal of the ritual? Are you telling me he'd perform such ritual, circling around Trunks for hours, and not inform him of what would come of such? Yeah, sure.

In the anime, like people pointed out, the Genki provided by a few people allowing Trunks to compete with Merged Zamasu is clearly nonsense considering Goku has already highlighted the lack of contributors before as a predicament for the Genki-Dama. Same stays true for random achievements in fights against way stronger opponents, like Goku and Vegeta all of a sudden managing to clash against Merged Zamasu when they should be many times inferior. Classical TOEI portrayment of fights, I feel.

But I'd say the anime edges out the manga in the construction, build of the main characters for this arc. Zamasu having an interaction with Goku and losing to him serves as better reasons for his later obsession with him than simply watching him on GodTube, like mentioned. Black seems also more intruguing in the anime, in which he actually manages to find his way out of troublesome situations, e.g when being overpowered by Vegeta. He doesn't lose his cool as easily and seems more well grounded, so to speak. When the manga chapters came out, the whole mystery had already been sorted, so there's that to consider as well. Kaioshin playing a more significant role in the manga can also be considered as a point for the manga, I guess.

I don't like the outcome revolving around Zeno, though. Besides being cheap, it really undermines the whole tension of the arc. It means the whole thing could be sorted that way from the beginning... that doesn't sound right.
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Re: Zamasu's arc -- anime vs manga

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:41 am

Same stays true for random achievements in fights against way stronger opponents, like Goku and Vegeta all of a sudden managing to clash against Merged Zamasu when they should be many times inferior. Classical TOEI portrayment of fights, I feel.
Fused Zamasu was toying with them (this is directly stated by Vegeta), so when he got into his beam fight with Vegeta and Trunks, he was just messing around and not really trying. Five seconds earlier he had effortlessly crushed Goku and Vegeta. It's just that he wasn't expecting Vegeta and Trunks to unleash so much power, and when he did it was too late. Later on when Zamasu and Goku had their beam struggle, it's true that it was kind of absurd that Goku managed to overpower a Zamasu who was actually trying, but at the same time we can at least see the impact that that beam struggle had on Goku. He had to push himself so much beyond his limits that his arms literally broke. So even if he did beat Zamasu in a beam struggle when he was getting dicked on by him in the previous episode, there was at least a considerable fallout on Goku that made that moment more tolerable.

Really, I don't have a lot of issues with the powerscaling in episode 65-most of 66, because it can be explained (even if not perfectly). My only issue is when Trunks steps in and destroys Zamasu's physical body with the power of 30 civilians, one cat, one turtle, one android, and two exhausted base saiyans. It is explained how that was possible. Gowasu said earlier in the episode that their chance of victory lied in attacking Zamasu with enough strength to shatter the balance between his immortal soul and mortal body. And Trunks did just that. So it's not like it was a complete asspull that came out of nowhere. But it still feels very rushed and mostly done for the "woah!" moment. In this regard Xenoverse 2 did it better by also having individuals from other timelines give their energy to Trunks.
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Re: Zamasu's arc -- anime vs manga

Post by Grimlock » Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:53 pm

ahill1 wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:47 am
spill the beans.
Very well. The third medium that adapted Future Trunks saga was the video-game, more specifically Dragon Ball Xenoverse 2 (well, it is currently the only other place that adapted it).

That says a lot, though. If it is a game, then it is more closely based on the Toei version. But it did what no other medium did (and what they both should have done): it knew how to expand and explore the possibilities.

Firstly, I would like to say that they stated a year for when the events occur in Trunks timeline. And what's better, unlike certain people behind Dragon Ball Super: Broly who don't seem to know basic math, the year given (AGE 796) does not bring any contradiction, except for those who consider all the times Shenlong was summoned (since the beginning of Universe 6 saga) and filler events, which is something one shouldn't be doing.

Since stuff happen very similar to what was seen in the anime, I'll skip to what makes this version better: The battle against Goku Black after he opens a portal in the sky. He says he does not know what it is, and speculates what it can do, maybe one could go to the past? To the future? Or even to another reality. Dimps, knowing better, did not waste opportunity and used it to bring a few villains from another dimension. This is what modern Dragon Ball should be about. It is time to get the hell out of the safe zone and start expanding itself gloriously. You're finally applying Akira Toriyama's words (spoken in Daizenshuu 6) in-universe. It is time to acknowledge and explain how the movies stand and work in this grand scope to your broader audience. If you are already taking a lot from comic books' features (hell, even the protagonist has a backstory that perfectly mirrors a comic book superhero), why stop there now?

By using the access to another dimension, you don't need to keep rebooting characters, let them be what they are (except Janemba, he really needs a "reboot" in his personality so that he can be the greatest villain). Anyway, later on, that same rift that Goku Black open served another purpose. During the confrontation between Trunks and Merged Zamasu, his "Genki-Dama Sword" received even more energy thanks to the rift being connected not only to another dimension, but also to the past and "our present", as we see Goku, Pan and Trunks (another dimension), Trunks and Gohan (past) and Gohan and Piccolo (our present) also helping Trunks out. Once again making me put a huge smile on my face. It made more sense because I don't think the energy took only from what's left on Earth would be enough to take down Merged Zamasu.

I clapped when I saw that Dimps cleverly used that rift to do all of this. This is exactly what I was expecting to see and was hoping it would happen back when Future Trunks saga was airing. Dragon Ball has potential, and unfortunately it seems only games know how to use it. All of this can bring a lot of possibilities in the future to work with, other great stories that are not stuck with the same characters, in the same place.

Since it was confirmed that Dragon Ball Super Trunks is the same as the Time Patroller Trunks in XV2, I assume Trunks became a Time Patroller after the events of Future Trunks saga. Which means the end of the saga is also better here. I wanted to punch someone when I saw that they would end the saga with Trunks going to live with himself in another timeline. That is the WORST. ENDING. EVER. They could have done anything but they chose the worst of all. Hell, Trunks was even wearing a green pullover, the same seen underneath his black coat as Time Patroller, I thought they would finally make things right...



So this is it. I pretty much prefer Future Trunks saga by Dimps. Though there were some cool stuff in the other media, such as the love for Super Saiyan 2, it was nice that Trunks got it (despite Toei screwing it up by not changing Trunks hair properly) and Vegeta using it once again in the manga. Super Saiyan God Vegeta finally appeared, and Dende knows how badly I wanted to see Vegeta in that form as I always thought it would look better on him and I was right. I also liked that they "gave Trunks his Majin Buu saga", here's to hope games adapt it (though I know games tend to adapt what's in the anime. And what was seen in the anime was literally nothing. Damn you Toei!), it goes without saying that Toyotaro did it best here. They both did some cool stuff of their own (but also some bad stuff, such as Vegetto who shouldn't have been brought back in the first place. It should have been either Gogeta or Vegenks) but there's no contest here. In these modern times, we need more than just "cool stuff".
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Re: Zamasu's arc -- anime vs manga

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:29 pm

Dimps, knowing better, did not waste opportunity and used it to bring a few villains from another dimension. This is what modern Dragon Ball should be about. It is time to get the hell out of the safe zone and start expanding itself gloriously. You're finally applying Akira Toriyama's words (spoken in Daizenshuu 6) in-universe. It is time to acknowledge and explain how the movies stand and work in this grand scope to your broader audience. If you are already taking a lot from comic books' features (hell, even the protagonist has a backstory that perfectly mirrors a comic book superhero), why stop there now?
That's... interesting. Many people on this forum told me in the past that that is precisely what modern Dragon Ball should NOT be about. Just reciclying old villains (like Freeza and Broly) just because they are popular.
"You give corruption far too much credit, evil does not inform good. It sullies it, like the Babari sullied their world with violence, and that arrogant Goku sullied this sacred ground by swinging his fists at a God. Mortals receive the divine gift of intellect, the potential for wisdom, but they misuse it to destroy the beauty of creation. Mortals do not succumb to evil, they are the evil. They create it, and spread it with minds they shouldn't possess. How can we call ourselves gods if we watch this plight and do nothing to stop it?"

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Re: Zamasu's arc -- anime vs manga

Post by SSJgogeto » Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:23 pm

IMO bring villains from another non-canon dimension would make things even more confuse. It's nice to see things like that happening in the games though, specially because there's no real consequence; they're just games after all.

Well, the manga have some cool moments, but I prefer the anime.

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Re: Zamasu's arc -- anime vs manga

Post by Xeogran » Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:48 pm

wolflonnie wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:06 am
Vegetto has a MUCH better fight in the anime, making him a lot more memorable.
And about this I respectfully disagree. I didn't like seeing Vegetto getting punched around by Merged Zamasu and actually bleeding in the anime. It made him feel very weak, nothing like the Z Vegetto we know. Doesn't help that Zamasu's fusion wasn't supposed to be anywhere as strong, as SSB Goku managed to overwhelm him alone in certain moments. Not to mention the Final Kamehameha which did absolutely nothing.

Meanwhile, manga Vegetto took zero damage, and cut Zamasu's arms showing his dominance in the fight. It was shorter, but gave me better impressions.

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Re: Zamasu's arc -- anime vs manga

Post by wolflonnie » Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:06 pm

Xeogran wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:48 pm
wolflonnie wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:06 am
Vegetto has a MUCH better fight in the anime, making him a lot more memorable.
And about this I respectfully disagree. I didn't like seeing Vegetto getting punched around by Merged Zamasu and actually bleeding in the anime. It made him feel very weak, nothing like the Z Vegetto we know. Doesn't help that Zamasu's fusion wasn't supposed to be anywhere as strong, as SSB Goku managed to overwhelm him alone in certain moments. Not to mention the Final Kamehameha which did absolutely nothing.

Meanwhile, manga Vegetto took zero damage, and cut Zamasu's arms showing his dominance in the fight. It was shorter, but gave me better impressions.
Ah with this I absolutely agree. The manga got the idea right.
Still, I feel like the anime at least gave more a care about Vegetto, and the battle itself was quite spectacular.
Still... yeah. It could've been so much better. Give Vegetto a bigger edge, and also make his contribution more important down the line. A very easy fix which hadn't been the case sadly.

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Re: Zamasu's arc -- anime vs manga

Post by Grimlock » Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:05 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:29 pm
That's... interesting. Many people on this forum told me in the past that that is precisely what modern Dragon Ball should NOT be about. Just reciclying old villains (like Freeza and Broly) just because they are popular.
Dragon Ball has grown way past being about main characters fighting common villains coming out of nowhere within the same context over and over. They hardly even bother to change outfits of the characters.

What's Dragon Ball supposed to be now? Retellings with every aspect being worse than the original material? Tournaments that lead nowhere and the results being obvious? As I said, it has so much potential to be so much more. There's absolutely no valid excuse or reason not to explore other ideas. Hell, two of them come from Toriyama himself (evil Kaio/Kaioshin and alternate dimension). All of that, and I didn't even mention Dragon Ball Online...

Broly and Freeza are examples of what not to do. The former because if you are going to revamp the character from scratch and keeping only a few things here and there, you might as well come up with a new one instead. The latter was purely for fanservice/popularity, as you said.

It is better to do what Heroes did, Cooler turned out to be a great character in Prison Planet saga, you took him from the movies and let the circumstances do the rest. You can develop what's already there, give a new spin and change things without having to keep rebooting characters for the sake of it. I don't care about Garlic Junior at all, he's one of the most boring characters in this franchise, but I would give him a chance if he gets involved in a far more interesting plot, for example.
SSJgogeto wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:23 pm
IMO bring villains from another non-canon dimension would make things even more confuse. It's nice to see things like that happening in the games though, specially because there's no real consequence; they're just games after all.
What would be "more confusing"? Dealing with characters from other realities is an easier task to do than dealing with time travel.

On the contrary, it's nice to see things like that happening in the games, specially because the series is stuck in comfort zone and don't try to take a few risks. So games are here to save the franchise from monotony.
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Re: Zamasu's arc -- anime vs manga

Post by SSJgogeto » Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:40 pm

More confusing because there's already a whole debate about canon and non-canon (and before you say something like "there's no canon in the franchise" let me tell you we will agree in disagree).

Also, just because the series don't work the way you like doesn't mean it isn't taking risks, or is being monotone. This will depend a lot on the individual interpretation, among other things.

I see Heroes being boring as hell for example, even if it take "risks".

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Re: Zamasu's arc -- anime vs manga

Post by Zamasu55 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:40 pm

Manga.

Because... at least time travel makes sense. And it fixed the anime's most important error: Present Zamasu fighing Goku, losing and stealing his body due to that loss. But Goku went there only because Black had a time ring, so it makes no sense at all.

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Re: Zamasu's arc -- anime vs manga

Post by Grimlock » Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:10 pm

SSJgogeto wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:40 pm
More confusing because there's already a whole debate about canon and non-canon (and before you say something like "there's no canon in the franchise" let me tell you we will agree in disagree).
What does this have to do with anything? Characters from different realities interacting with each other does not affect canonicity at all (but yeah, it's indeed not like Dragon Ball has an official canon established). What happens to Miles Morales from another Earth does not affect what happens to Peter Parker after they had met.

Xeno Goku (Dragon Ball GT) and Goku (Dragon Ball Super) meeting each other does not mean one is connected to the other somehow, they are still separate entities and will remain like that. So canon debates is and forever will be pointless.
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Re: Zamasu's arc -- anime vs manga

Post by Dbzfan94 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:02 pm

Neither are very good, but I do like the first part of the arc in the anime more.

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Re: Zamasu's arc -- anime vs manga

Post by SSJgogeto » Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:51 pm

"Dragon Ball has an official canon established"

Pretty sure I said this before, but the phrase sounds like a poor excuse to consider everything canon. I mean, putting things like the original manga and Xenoverse, most of the movies or GT in the same place is absurd at least. Even if the phrase is true (pretty sure it isn't) we need to avaliate everything carefully.

Comparing DB with Marvel is like comparing oranges with apples; they don't work in the same way (unless you consider DBM as a thing). The comparation itself isn't even fair because the Ultiverse is just another universe, like universes 6 and 7. A better comparision is between DB and Star Wars.

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Re: Zamasu's arc -- anime vs manga

Post by Grimlock » Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:30 pm

SSJgogeto wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:51 pm
the phrase sounds like a poor excuse to consider everything canon.
That depends on who is speaking. And it makes sense, actually. Since Dragon Ball lacks a canon, then people are allowed to consider whatever they want. It's the lack of a canon what allows people to choose between Toyotaro's continuity or Toei's continuity (and when it comes to Beerus and Golden Freeza, Toriyama's continuity/the movies as well). Like I said in another thread, we're always in the "headcanon" territory whenever we discuss it, because we lack an official one.
SSJgogeto wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:51 pm
I mean, putting things like the original manga and Xenoverse, most of the movies or GT in the same place is absurd at least.
No one is doing that, though.
SSJgogeto wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:51 pm
Comparing DB with Marvel is like comparing oranges with apples; they don't work in the same way (unless you consider DBM as a thing). The comparation itself isn't even fair because the Ultiverse is just another universe, like universes 6 and 7. A better comparision is between DB and Star Wars.
I think I conveyed the message very clear but if you really want to nitpick, then okay... Go with your Star Wars comparison.
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Re: Zamasu's arc -- anime vs manga

Post by SSJgogeto » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:15 pm

You aren't really clear, that's why I used the Star Wars comparison.

Also, there's a difference between state what is canonical and analysing things carefully. You could make any mental gimnastics you want, but there's no way to say the original manga isn't CANON. And logically speaking you could say there's "tiers" of canon, with the manga being the first.

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Re: Zamasu's arc -- anime vs manga

Post by Grimlock » Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:33 pm

SSJgogeto wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:15 pm
You aren't really clear, that's why I used the Star Wars comparison.
Then I'll keep it simple for you to understand: Goku and Vegeta meeting Cabba and Caulifla won't change the former's course of history. Whatever happened to Universe 6 Saiyans will forever remain an event exclusive to the Universe 6 Saiyans. And so, the history they've experienced, despite their meeting in a tournament, won't somehow connect with the Universe 7's Saiyans. The future of Goku and Vegeta will not be Cabba and Caulifla's future events. This logically applies to characters from different realities/dimensions too.
SSJgogeto wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:15 pm
but there's no way to say the original manga isn't CANON. And logically speaking you could say there's "tiers" of canon, with the manga being the first.
No one is disputing the validity of the manga. We need to have a basis/source (in this case, the manga) and start working from there. That said, it obviously means that canonicity is generally "concerned" with other materials, not the source. Manga being canonical or not is irrelevant (if it is already our source) when analysing all the other works.
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Re: Zamasu's arc -- anime vs manga

Post by SSJgogeto » Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:15 am

When someone say something like "there's no canon in the franchise" then the validity of the manga is questioned. Probably isn't the intention, but in this case the manga is no different from GT, DBE or Xenoverse.

And I used Star Wars as a example because in this case we aren't talking about Cabba/Kyabe, Caulifla and such. We are talking about guys like Turles, and this would be game changing because if he appears in the anime/manga like he appeared in the game then the movies would be confirmed as CANON, or at least they would be one step closer to it.

When we talk about Marvel this is something ordinary, but in Star Wars and DB something like this would really repercute.

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Re: Zamasu's arc -- anime vs manga

Post by Grimlock » Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:22 am

SSJgogeto wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:15 am
When someone say something like "there's no canon in the franchise" then the validity of the manga is questioned.
It is not. No one questions the original/"main" work of a franchise. Like I said, "canon" concerns more about which other materials the original work acknowledges. It is not the intention of anyone to dispute the validity of an original work. Well, I see now that the problem does not come from those who say "there is no canon", the problem comes from people who misunderstand those who say such thing.
SSJgogeto wrote:
Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:15 am
We are talking about guys like Turles, and this would be game changing because if he appears in the anime/manga like he appeared in the game then the movies would be confirmed as CANON.
That is where you are still wrong. And I've already addressed why this isn't the case/how things work in the posts above.
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Re: Zamasu's arc -- anime vs manga

Post by Shaddy » Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:57 am

How many times are you going to need it explained to you? When people ask "what is canon", they're not asking about what technically literally counts as an alternate timeline that ostensibly takes place in the sea of alternate timelines that is the series canon, they're asking what is part of the mainline continuing story the series is going to continue following earlier. They're asking what needs to be understood for the main story continuing, what's part of the central timeline.

A story justifying it's hypothetical scenarios as alternate timelines within a single multiverse is moot when those timelines never interact and are in many cases built to never interact. If you generalize it to "all alternate timelines are canonically alternate timelines" like this, then literally everything is canon in any universe ever, removing the point to answering, so you just end up looking like a tool.

Your idea of canon is completely meaningless in the face of how anyone actually consumes the story of the series, and unhelpful to any proper discussion of canon. The question is always about what events can and have happened relative to each other. Being able to declare everything or nothing canon due to a technicality about how the series structures it's alternate scenarios doesn't mean that there aren't events that take obvious precedence over everything else.
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Re: Zamasu's arc -- anime vs manga

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:40 am

Xeogran wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:48 pm
wolflonnie wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:06 am
Vegetto has a MUCH better fight in the anime, making him a lot more memorable.
And about this I respectfully disagree. I didn't like seeing Vegetto getting punched around by Merged Zamasu and actually bleeding in the anime. It made him feel very weak, nothing like the Z Vegetto we know. Doesn't help that Zamasu's fusion wasn't supposed to be anywhere as strong, as SSB Goku managed to overwhelm him alone in certain moments. Not to mention the Final Kamehameha which did absolutely nothing.

Meanwhile, manga Vegetto took zero damage, and cut Zamasu's arms showing his dominance in the fight. It was shorter, but gave me better impressions.
Zamasu became stronger after Goku overwhelmed him (after breaking his limits and his limbs, I might add). He used the Light of Divine Justice on himself to grow more powerful, much like Black did in the previous episode by stabbing his hand.
"You give corruption far too much credit, evil does not inform good. It sullies it, like the Babari sullied their world with violence, and that arrogant Goku sullied this sacred ground by swinging his fists at a God. Mortals receive the divine gift of intellect, the potential for wisdom, but they misuse it to destroy the beauty of creation. Mortals do not succumb to evil, they are the evil. They create it, and spread it with minds they shouldn't possess. How can we call ourselves gods if we watch this plight and do nothing to stop it?"

Zamasu/Fused Zamasu fan.

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