Hit vs Dyspo was the most strategic fight in the series?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
Tai Lung
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 931
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:38 pm

Hit vs Dyspo was the most strategic fight in the series?

Post by Tai Lung » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:42 am

although it is true that Dragon ball has been changing over time, usually the fights did not, it always have an easy to understand fighting style and techniques without something that differentiates it much from the others battles in the series ...
if a character was very powerful ... there really wasn't much the opponent could do against him and even if he had some technique it was very likely that it would not work in the long term unless the character had a transformation or could merge with someone else the fight was lost for him ...
In the event that the opponents were equal, they beat each other, dodged or attacked with energy attacks. This became so well known that many people outside or not in the series would say that the DB fights are always decided by whom the opponents have the larger energy ball. whether this is true or not .. there were many other new series that had different types of fights that serve as a comparison for example when the anime naruto appeared, many said it was like dragon ball but with more ninjas but despite that .. it was characterized enough for his strategic battles of course that he was later losing this but ... that has nothing to do with the issue ...
the point is that when the tournament of power arrived there were different types of fights to those of the series because many of the warriors had different skills and techniques

Image

Image

hit VS Dyspo is the perfect example, both were warriors faced in a battle which depended on their special ability, time stop vs super speed and each looked for a way to counter the other through a strategy planned in combat that turned out to be physical, strategic and technical to the point that there was not a single attack of energy ... in "DB" I really thought it was a pretty nice change that I liked very much .. of course there were many warriors with special abilities in the tournament whose fights seem like gems underestimated but this is the one I liked the most

so what do they think? Do you think hit vs dyspo is the most strategic fight? Or maybe the tournament in general had more varied battles or maybe you don't think so ... etc :think:

RecolorSaiyan
Regular
Posts: 568
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:40 pm

Re: Hit vs Dyspo was the most strategic fight in the series?

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:07 am

I'd say so although wonder why Dyspo didn't use his SLSM to try and counter :think:
many people outside or not in the series would say that the DB fights are always decided by whom the opponents have the larger energy ball.
Toriyama himself said as much when he said the one with more ki wins the fight

Kataphrut
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1320
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:12 pm

Re: Hit vs Dyspo was the most strategic fight in the series?

Post by Kataphrut » Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:11 am

Dragon Ball is kind of the bedrock on which the modern, formulaic idea of the "battle anime" was founded (no I'm not saying it invented it, there are whole genres from which it drew inspiration, I've read the Wuxia thread). It kept things simple with ki as the basis for everything, and just having more ki was all you needed. It was down to other series that followed to adapt the idea of non-linear, strategic fighting- your JoJos, your HunterxHunters, your MHAs, etc. Stuff where it's less about being stronger and more about having the right counter to the situation.

When Dragon Ball came back, it ideally needed to evolve and match the progression of the series that followed in its wake. Most of the efforts to do so have been pretty half-hearted. The Hit vs Dyspo example is bordering on a JoJo fight, and there are a few other examples in Super that come close, but don't go all the way. The Master Roshi fights in the next episode, UI Goku vs Kefla, maybe even Vegeta vs Magetta. It's a step in the right direction, but I'd like to see more.

User avatar
Polyphase Avatron
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5603
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:48 am

Re: Hit vs Dyspo was the most strategic fight in the series?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:47 am

RecolorSaiyan wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:07 am
I'd say so although wonder why Dyspo didn't use his SLSM to try and counter :think:
Most of the fighters in the ToP seemed to be saving their ultimate techniques for the very end, and only using them if they were absolutely necessary. Which does make sense, as you don't want to reveal your trump card too early. It can probably also be inferred that that ability uses up Dyspo's stamina very quickly, so if he used it that early in the fight he would probably run out of ki before the tournament ended, and be left helpless. So it would be best to use it when there were only a few minutes remaining, like he did.
Cool stuff that I upload here because Youtube will copyright claim it: https://vimeo.com/user60967147

User avatar
SupremeKai25
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1120
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: Hit vs Dyspo was the most strategic fight in the series?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:55 am

Hmm... maybe Vegeta vs. Black in the manga? Alternating between Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue to maintain a good balance of defense/speed and strength was an interesting strategy.
"Behold this ultimate vessel. The sword and shield made one. Its strength knows no limits. The power coursing through me is exceptional, glorious, absolute. Stare in awe, I AM JUSTICE INCARNATE!!!"

Zamasu/Fused Zamasu fan.

RecolorSaiyan
Regular
Posts: 568
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:40 pm

Re: Hit vs Dyspo was the most strategic fight in the series?

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:03 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:47 am
RecolorSaiyan wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:07 am
I'd say so although wonder why Dyspo didn't use his SLSM to try and counter :think:
Most of the fighters in the ToP seemed to be saving their ultimate techniques for the very end, and only using them if they were absolutely necessary. Which does make sense, as you don't want to reveal your trump card too early. It can probably also be inferred that that ability uses up Dyspo's stamina very quickly, so if he used it that early in the fight he would probably run out of ki before the tournament ended, and be left helpless. So it would be best to use it when there were only a few minutes remaining, like he did.
I mean I guess but holding back against HIT of all people makes no sense, Dyspo was on the verge of elimination so you'd think he would have pulled it out.

User avatar
Tai Lung
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 931
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:38 pm

Re: Hit vs Dyspo was the most strategic fight in the series?

Post by Tai Lung » Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:53 pm

RecolorSaiyan wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:03 pm
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:47 am
RecolorSaiyan wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:07 am
I'd say so although wonder why Dyspo didn't use his SLSM to try and counter :think:
Most of the fighters in the ToP seemed to be saving their ultimate techniques for the very end, and only using them if they were absolutely necessary. Which does make sense, as you don't want to reveal your trump card too early. It can probably also be inferred that that ability uses up Dyspo's stamina very quickly, so if he used it that early in the fight he would probably run out of ki before the tournament ended, and be left helpless. So it would be best to use it when there were only a few minutes remaining, like he did.
I mean I guess but holding back against HIT of all people makes no sense, Dyspo was on the verge of elimination so you'd think he would have pulled it out.
in the first instance ... dyspo did not know that he had other skills such as his dimensions / clones he was confident of his strategy and ability
also dyspo had support from other teammates like kunshi with which he could face to hit but against frieza he was alone.
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:55 am
Hmm... maybe Vegeta vs. Black in the manga? Alternating between Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue to maintain a good balance of defense/speed and strength was an interesting strategy.
It is a good idea but it does not seem to be well executed if we consider that the difference in speed and power is quite considerable between SSJB and SSJG, Black should have counteracted that strategy at the moment when his opponent was weaker
SSR> = SSB >> SSG

In any case, that idea was best executed when Goku faced Dyspo who was weaker than the SSB but was faster than this

Raimundo
Newbie
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:16 pm

Re: Hit vs Dyspo was the most strategic fight in the series?

Post by Raimundo » Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:28 pm

Most strategic? Maybe. Hit, 17, Kuririn, and Goku get their share of fights with more tactics or strategy involved than your average DB fight

User avatar
Nokra
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 269
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:39 pm
Location: Transcendent Realm

Re: Hit vs Dyspo was the most strategic fight in the series?

Post by Nokra » Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:27 pm

Its definitely one of the most strategic fights. DBS in general uses strategy and tactics during fights more than DBZ did.

User avatar
Polyphase Avatron
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5603
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:48 am

Re: Hit vs Dyspo was the most strategic fight in the series?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:14 pm

RecolorSaiyan wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:03 pm
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:47 am
RecolorSaiyan wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:07 am
I'd say so although wonder why Dyspo didn't use his SLSM to try and counter :think:
Most of the fighters in the ToP seemed to be saving their ultimate techniques for the very end, and only using them if they were absolutely necessary. Which does make sense, as you don't want to reveal your trump card too early. It can probably also be inferred that that ability uses up Dyspo's stamina very quickly, so if he used it that early in the fight he would probably run out of ki before the tournament ended, and be left helpless. So it would be best to use it when there were only a few minutes remaining, like he did.
I mean I guess but holding back against HIT of all people makes no sense, Dyspo was on the verge of elimination so you'd think he would have pulled it out.
Well he had Toppo and Jiren to bail him out if things got too bad.
Cool stuff that I upload here because Youtube will copyright claim it: https://vimeo.com/user60967147

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 2567
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Hit vs Dyspo was the most strategic fight in the series?

Post by Miracles » Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:51 pm

Not really. The anime used the same concepts as the manga; with Goku vs Hit, where Goku looked out for the vibration before Hit time skips. Dyspo did the same in the anime.

Hit switching between time skip techniques to confuse Dyspo is similar to Goku/Vegeta switching between red and blue.
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."~Psalm 14:1

User avatar
Tai Lung
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 931
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:38 pm

Re: Hit vs Dyspo was the most strategic fight in the series?

Post by Tai Lung » Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:59 pm

Miracles wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:51 pm
Not really. The anime used the same concepts as the manga; with Goku vs Hit, where Goku looked out for the vibration before Hit time skips. Dyspo did the same in the anime.

Hit switching between time skip techniques to confuse Dyspo is similar to Goku/Vegeta switching between red and blue.
they are completely different concepts

1.- goku simply predicted his movements ... based on his postures and gestures very similar to what goku did in the anime which is very common in the battles in DB but different from what he did dyspo, listen and anticipate "the time skip" preventing hit's ability to use it.
2.- goku need transformations that will increase his power to beat hit
hit manga need to increase its power that was hiding something very both are common in DBZ
3.-
dyspo and hit fought in a physical battle without energy attacks
dyspo only depended on his skill and strategy
hit just depended on his skill and strategy

User avatar
TheSaiyanGod
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1286
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:09 pm

Re: Hit vs Dyspo was the most strategic fight in the series?

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:12 am

Tai Lung wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:53 pm
It is a good idea but it does not seem to be well executed if we consider that the difference in speed and power is quite considerable between SSJB and SSJG, Black should have counteracted that strategy at the moment when his opponent was weaker
SSR> = SSB >> SSG

In any case, that idea was best executed when Goku faced Dyspo who was weaker than the SSB but was faster than this
Definitely the anime didn't perform better, especially since Goku only switched between God and Blue once against Dyspo and it wasn't a quick enough change for the enemy not to notice (Vegeta alternated between God and Blue so fast that Black didn't even know what had happened).

Not to mention that the fact that SSG Vegeta could hold his own against SSJ Rosé Black even without using Blue shows that his power level has also increased and that is why Black couldn't beat him even in SSG

Kataphrut
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1320
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:12 pm

Re: Hit vs Dyspo was the most strategic fight in the series?

Post by Kataphrut » Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:47 am

Look, the whole SSG to SSB thing doesn't compare to Hit vs Dyspo at all. Whether we're talking anime or manga, it's still just playing around with the same ki=power baseline and neither version does a good job of explaining why it's necessary. It doesn't help that God and Blue are so poorly defined that the switching strategy seems more like a gimmick. Just use Blue all the time unless God is enough.

The thing that makes Hit vs Dyspo stand out from other Dragon Ball fights is that strength isn't really a factor. The assumption is that either Hit or Dyspo could win if they landed enough decisive blows, and the flow of the fight is about each trying to outmanoeuvre the other. And there's multiple layers to it.

Hit: I have a move that lets me skip time
Dyspo: Well I have a move that lets me counterattack when you try to use it
Hit: Ok, well I can feint that move to draw you in and counter your counterattack
Dyspo: Ok, well I have a friend who can save me from ringout with his energy strings when you try to do that
Friend: I can also make a minefield so you can't reach me
Hit: I have a long-range invisible heart crush
Friend: Ouch
Hit: I also have Goku

And that's when it becomes a Dragon Ball fight again.

User avatar
TheSaiyanGod
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1286
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:09 pm

Re: Hit vs Dyspo was the most strategic fight in the series?

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:11 am

Kataphrut wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:47 am
Look, the whole SSG to SSB thing doesn't compare to Hit vs Dyspo at all. Whether we're talking anime or manga, it's still just playing around with the same ki=power baseline and neither version does a good job of explaining why it's necessary. It doesn't help that God and Blue are so poorly defined that the switching strategy seems more like a gimmick. Just use Blue all the time unless God is enough.

The thing that makes Hit vs Dyspo stand out from other Dragon Ball fights is that strength isn't really a factor. The assumption is that either Hit or Dyspo could win if they landed enough decisive blows, and the flow of the fight is about each trying to outmanoeuvre the other. And there's multiple layers to it.

Hit: I have a move that lets me skip time
Dyspo: Well I have a move that lets me counterattack when you try to use it
Hit: Ok, well I can feint that move to draw you in and counter your counterattack
Dyspo: Ok, well I have a friend who can save me from ringout with his energy strings when you try to do that
Friend: I can also make a minefield so you can't reach me
Hit: I have a long-range invisible heart crush
Friend: Ouch
Hit: I also have Goku

And that's when it becomes a Dragon Ball fight again.
The whole point of the God - Blue strategy is precisely that Vegeta can't just use Blue all the time and defeat Black. Eventually he would run out of energy and Black would win. Not to mention that this technique is said to maximize Blue's power, as there is no energy expenditure because the transformation activates so quickly that the enemy doesn't realize it.

In the anime this is a bit different because although it is said that SSB uses a lot of energy, Goku and Vegeta were able to use it several times when they were exhausted.

User avatar
Tai Lung
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 931
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:38 pm

Re: Hit vs Dyspo was the most strategic fight in the series?

Post by Tai Lung » Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:25 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:12 am
Tai Lung wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:53 pm
It is a good idea but it does not seem to be well executed if we consider that the difference in speed and power is quite considerable between SSJB and SSJG, Black should have counteracted that strategy at the moment when his opponent was weaker
SSR> = SSB >> SSG

In any case, that idea was best executed when Goku faced Dyspo who was weaker than the SSB but was faster than this
Definitely the anime didn't perform better, especially since Goku only switched between God and Blue once against Dyspo and it wasn't a quick enough change for the enemy not to notice (Vegeta alternated between God and Blue so fast that Black didn't even know what had happened).

Not to mention that the fact that SSG Vegeta could hold his own against SSJ Rosé Black even without using Blue shows that his power level has also increased and that is why Black couldn't beat him even in SSG
it works better because it has more "consistency"
-dyspo is faster but has a minor technique than goku
-dyspo does not know the transformations of goku nor can he feel the god ki
-A sudden change of pace in combat can confused him, something that goku could take advantage of, although eventually dyspo got used to it ...

it doesn't matter so much that it has only been seen once at the end of the day it was seen and explained ..

the difference is remarkable

-black knows all transformations of both saiyan
-Black can feel the God Ki
and as we learned with gohan ssj2 you only need to be twice as strong as to overcome your enemy in every way
the speed and reactions decrease so black should have counterattacked the moment his opponent was inferior

then .... SSB> = SSG? ... the difference in power should be considerable if vegeta only needed the SSB it was not necessary all that trick ... because it is assumed that according to "Champa arc" the change of transformation constant generate greater wear

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 2567
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Hit vs Dyspo was the most strategic fight in the series?

Post by Miracles » Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:11 pm

Tai Lung wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:59 pm
Miracles wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:51 pm
Not really. The anime used the same concepts as the manga; with Goku vs Hit, where Goku looked out for the vibration before Hit time skips. Dyspo did the same in the anime.

Hit switching between time skip techniques to confuse Dyspo is similar to Goku/Vegeta switching between red and blue.
they are completely different concepts

1.- goku simply predicted his movements ... based on his postures and gestures very similar to what goku did in the anime which is very common in the battles in DB but different from what he did dyspo, listen and anticipate "the time skip" preventing hit's ability to use it.
2.- goku need transformations that will increase his power to beat hit
hit manga need to increase its power that was hiding something very both are common in DBZ
3.-
dyspo and hit fought in a physical battle without energy attacks
dyspo only depended on his skill and strategy
hit just depended on his skill and strategy
Those are same concepts. Dyspo listening for Hit's movements before time skip and Goku reading Hit's movement before time skip to counter. They both have the common theme of exposing Hit's hesitation before he time skips.
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."~Psalm 14:1

User avatar
Tai Lung
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 931
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:38 pm

Re: Hit vs Dyspo was the most strategic fight in the series?

Post by Tai Lung » Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:34 pm

Miracles wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:11 pm
Tai Lung wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:59 pm
Miracles wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:51 pm
Not really. The anime used the same concepts as the manga; with Goku vs Hit, where Goku looked out for the vibration before Hit time skips. Dyspo did the same in the anime.

Hit switching between time skip techniques to confuse Dyspo is similar to Goku/Vegeta switching between red and blue.
they are completely different concepts

1.- goku simply predicted his movements ... based on his postures and gestures very similar to what goku did in the anime which is very common in the battles in DB but different from what he did dyspo, listen and anticipate "the time skip" preventing hit's ability to use it.
2.- goku need transformations that will increase his power to beat hit
hit manga need to increase its power that was hiding something very both are common in DBZ
3.-
dyspo and hit fought in a physical battle without energy attacks
dyspo only depended on his skill and strategy
hit just depended on his skill and strategy
Those are same concepts. Dyspo listening for Hit's movements before time skip and Goku reading Hit's movement before time skip to counter. They both have the common theme of exposing Hit's hesitation before he time skips.
no, because goku does not prevent him from using his ability ... he only predicts his movement ... he continues to use transformations and attacks of energy totally different from the fight with dyspo

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 2567
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Hit vs Dyspo was the most strategic fight in the series?

Post by Miracles » Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:51 pm

Tai Lung wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:34 pm
Miracles wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:11 pm
Tai Lung wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:59 pm


they are completely different concepts

1.- goku simply predicted his movements ... based on his postures and gestures very similar to what goku did in the anime which is very common in the battles in DB but different from what he did dyspo, listen and anticipate "the time skip" preventing hit's ability to use it.
2.- goku need transformations that will increase his power to beat hit
hit manga need to increase its power that was hiding something very both are common in DBZ
3.-
dyspo and hit fought in a physical battle without energy attacks
dyspo only depended on his skill and strategy
hit just depended on his skill and strategy
Those are same concepts. Dyspo listening for Hit's movements before time skip and Goku reading Hit's movement before time skip to counter. They both have the common theme of exposing Hit's hesitation before he time skips.
no, because goku does not prevent him from using his ability ... he only predicts his movement ... he continues to use transformations and attacks of energy totally different from the fight with dyspo
This does not refute the fact that Goku and Dyspo exposed the same weakness against Hit. Also, Dyspo used his raw physical might [speed] to prevent Hit from using time skip. If anything Goku predicting Hit by reading his movement to counter time skip is based on more skill.
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."~Psalm 14:1

User avatar
Lionel
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1578
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:54 am

Re: Hit vs Dyspo was the most strategic fight in the series?

Post by Lionel » Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:56 pm

I think you're going to be hardpressed to find a DB battle with as much of a thorough emphasis on tactics as the Hit vs Dyspo encounter. The gauntlet battle against Vegeta in the Saiyan arc placed some decent emphasis on teamwork and attritional warfare but it failed to really go anywhere afterwards. If anything, Dragon Ball Z seemed to get even more watered down from then on to the point where fighting in teams was considered dishonourable after the Freeza arc.

One fight that seemed to be strictly tactics based was the classical Upa and Puar vs Dracula Man fight. It was obviously executed with a comical bent in mind but that might be one comparable instance.

Post Reply