Hypothetical: Legendary Super Saiyan Goku

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Hypothetical: Legendary Super Saiyan Goku

Post by Kefla » Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:33 am

In your opinion how powerful would Goku be if he had that transformation?

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Re: Hypothetical: Legendary Super Saiyan Goku

Post by Grimlock » Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:35 am


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Re: Hypothetical: Legendary Super Saiyan Goku

Post by Mister_Popo » Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:01 am

I think the reference is made to Brolys transformation.

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Re: Hypothetical: Legendary Super Saiyan Goku

Post by Grimlock » Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:21 am

Oh, damn. I always keep forgetting that form also has this name.

Anyway, power is not set in stone in Dragon Ball. The power of a green-haired Goku would vary according to which Goku is using it.

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Re: Hypothetical: Legendary Super Saiyan Goku

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:14 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:35 am
Doesn't he already have that form?
No, that's the Super Saiyan of Legends!

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Re: Hypothetical: Legendary Super Saiyan Goku

Post by Mister_Popo » Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:25 pm

Broly and Kefla were far stronger in their base forms than Goku, this made their LSSJ-transformations so powerful at the end.
Not the transformation at such. When Broly went from SSJ to LSSJ, it didn't feel like he had something to counter SSJB Gogeta.
He was far far weaker than SSJB Gogeta, where as he could still tangle with SSJ Gogeta in his casual SSJ-form.
This means the improvement isn't somewhere in the range of difference between SSJ and SSJB. It's far smaller.
If Goku would apply it, i would say he'd end up somewhere between SSJ3 and SSJG.

It should be stronger than SSJ3 (the strongest form without God-Ki), otherwise it wouldn't make sense for it to be a new non-God-Ki transformation for Goku. On the other side: why should he use it if he has the God-forms to his disposal and is leaning towards mastering MUI in the manga? In order to fight weaker opponents he still has the lower SSJ-grades.

I feel the form wouldn't make sense at this moment for Goku in the "canon" timeline, unless some villain would s(t)eal or destroy his God-Ki. In that case the LSSJ-form (learning from Broly?) may be his only way to become stronger again.

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Re: Hypothetical: Legendary Super Saiyan Goku

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sat Nov 16, 2019 8:08 pm

Broly:BR doesn't have a Legendary firm, only a Full Power one. Which implies it's not even SS2.
Most likely it's the equivalent of Grade-2 or 3.

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Re: Hypothetical: Legendary Super Saiyan Goku

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sat Nov 16, 2019 8:08 pm

Wouldn't he lose control of himself and attack anyone he saw?
Cool stuff that I upload here because Youtube will copyright claim it: https://vimeo.com/user60967147

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Re: Hypothetical: Legendary Super Saiyan Goku

Post by Mister_Popo » Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:51 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 8:08 pm
Broly:BR doesn't have a Legendary firm, only a Full Power one. Which implies it's not even SS2.
Most likely it's the equivalent of Grade-2 or 3.


LSSJ is the same form as in the old movie as far as i'm concerned, only given a little update by Toriyama.
The original Broly-transformation may have been on that level.
Looking at the boost it gave Kale/Kefla in TOP and Broly in the new movie, i wouldn't be surprised they upped the multiplier a little to match Supers levels of strength. It's not as strong as Red or Blue, but still quite impressive nontheless.

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Re: Hypothetical: Legendary Super Saiyan Goku

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sun Nov 17, 2019 5:19 pm

Mister_Popo wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:51 pm
ankokudaishogun wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 8:08 pm
Broly:BR doesn't have a Legendary firm, only a Full Power one. Which implies it's not even SS2.
Most likely it's the equivalent of Grade-2 or 3.
LSSJ is the same form as in the old movie as far as i'm concerned, only given a little update by Toriyama.
except Toriyama didn't even planned for Broly:BR to get Buff.
It was a last-minute add from the director as callback to the classic Broly buffed form.
The original Broly-transformation may have been on that level.
Not even near.
Classic Broly in M10 got overpowered by 3 Super Saiyan
In M8... well, Goku got lucky or something.

Most likely Classic Broly was about as strong as Perfect Cell, possibly a little less in M8 and somehow more in M10(got a zenkai, likely)

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Re: Hypothetical: Legendary Super Saiyan Goku

Post by Mister_Popo » Sun Nov 17, 2019 5:57 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 5:19 pm
Mister_Popo wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:51 pm
ankokudaishogun wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 8:08 pm
Broly:BR doesn't have a Legendary firm, only a Full Power one. Which implies it's not even SS2.
Most likely it's the equivalent of Grade-2 or 3.
LSSJ is the same form as in the old movie as far as i'm concerned, only given a little update by Toriyama.
except Toriyama didn't even planned for Broly:BR to get Buff.
It was a last-minute add from the director as callback to the classic Broly buffed form.
The original Broly-transformation may have been on that level.
Not even near.
Classic Broly in M10 got overpowered by 3 Super Saiyan
In M8... well, Goku got lucky or something.

Most likely Classic Broly was about as strong as Perfect Cell, possibly a little less in M8 and somehow more in M10(got a zenkai, likely)

I was referring to the power of the Berserk / LSSJ-transformation as Kale/Kefla and new Broly apply it in DBS.
If classic Broly (i was referring to the original movie 8) was as strong as Perfect Cell, he wasn't even as strong as Gohans SSJ2.
This while in Super Goku needed Blue to handle Berserker Kale.
Brolys boost to LSSJ in the new movie wouldn't have made sense against SSB Gogeta if it had only doubled his powers coming from SSJ, in my opinion. SSB Gogeta was overpowering him, but only after he went from SSJ to SSB. That's a massive gap. And even then, Broly managed to land a few punches on him.
These actions would require a multiplier in my opinion that's higher than old Broly in movie 8 applied, in order to make sense.
Even if Broly got a Zenkai in movie 10, this would have made him more powerful in his base form and not the transformation at such?

You see it as different forms, i see it as the same Berserk / LSSJ- form but with adapted powerscaling to Super.

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Re: Hypothetical: Legendary Super Saiyan Goku

Post by Thani » Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:20 am

Honestly, M8 Broly was such a terror that in no way Paragus would risk letting him out of his leash. So for all we know, his normal state was nowhere near as Goku and company. That would make his LSSJ, who could overwhelm four Super Saiyans and a Super Namekian, a lot more impressive, to me.

In movie 10, it's debatable, but just like against Dabura, there's no reason for Gohan not to use SSj2 against a foe that was already far stronger than his SSj and was said to have gotten even stronger. It's a matter of narrative, but the only ones who can confirm this are the people who worked for the movie.

Regarding Super, there is indeed no LSSj, not even named as such. If it were to have an official name, it would be either Berserker Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan Full Power. Even in the movie, Toriyama never added the green haired giant in his drafts (sadly). But since he accepted the inclusion at the end, I assume he was okay with the implications.

Now, against Gogeta Blue, there are two points I need to make. The first one is that, actually, Broly never landed a single hit on Gogeta Blue, even at his full power. Secondly, it's worth to note that Gogeta never attempted as well to face Broly's attacks, always dodging, on a series that "no selling" blasts was the definitive signal that one was far superior to the other. So to me, it felt that Broly COULD hurt Gogeta if he landed a hit, but Gogeta was much too fast and skilled for that, while Broly was raging and without control at all. Just my two cents.

Now with Goku having that form, well, just look at Kale. She went from the weakest contestant, period, in her base to a monster that overwhelmed SSj2 Goku completely. In the manga, she went from stronger than SSj Caulifla to able to wipe the floor with Golden Freeza and break through CSSB Goku's defenses, who was on par with Merged Zamasu. So the boost is definitely huge, bigger than any normal SSj transformation. And it only got bigger when Kale mastered it, making her able to hold her own somewhat against SSG Goku. So in raw power, I think it's actually as strong as a God form. It makes sense too, Kefla used her version of the form and managed to defeat SSB Goku, even with the kaioken, having her power compared to the Genki Dama that Goku used against Jiren.

If Goku would have it, he would at the very least be as strong as his SSG form, imo.

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Re: Hypothetical: Legendary Super Saiyan Goku

Post by Mister_Popo » Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:10 pm

Regarding Super, there is indeed no LSSJ, not even named as such. If it were to have an official name, it would be either Berserker Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan Full Power. Even in the movie, Toriyama never added the green haired giant in his drafts (sadly). But since he accepted the inclusion at the end, I assume he was okay with the implications.
I think it's clear the franchise based "Female Broly" and "new movie Broly" on the original characters popularity. Movie 8 is called Broly: the Legendary SSJ. Apparently still one hell of a classic. :mrgreen: These new characters have a simular transformation with the same characteristics. Kale looses her pupils and gets really buffed too in her uncontrolled "Berserker state". New Broly gets the same characteristics in the new movie. It's very clear it refers to the same form. It's not something that's completely original, it's based on the movie 8- transformation. Why wouldn't it be common sense to refer to it as "LSSJ"? You may call it "Berserk' too , but i can't see why the reference LSSJ would be arbitrarily wrong. It's a purely semantic issue here. "Full power" is confusing in debates IMO because this also refers to mastered SSJ1.
Now, against Gogeta Blue, there are two points I need to make. The first one is that, actually, Broly never landed a single hit on Gogeta Blue, even at his full power.

Secondly, it's worth to note that Gogeta never attempted as well to face Broly's attacks, always dodging, on a series that "no selling" blasts was the definitive signal that one was far superior to the other. So to me, it felt that Broly COULD hurt Gogeta if he landed a hit, but Gogeta was much too fast and skilled for that, while Broly was raging and without control at all. Just my two cents.
You are right about that. There are a lot of effects going on so the colors aren't always that clear.
I thought Gogeta was already Blue but he wasn't.
He only appears to hit Gogeta when they were both still in SSJ1.

Brolys power-up to "full power Berserk" however still didn't feel like it 'only' doubled his powers, this while Gogeta became hundreds or even thousands of times stronger when becoming Blue. Full power Broly did even manage to somehow dodge some of Gogetas Blue beam-attacks. The remaining fight doesn't make sense to me if Brolys boost would have been that moderate. It should have ended more or less right away IMO.
Now with Goku having that form, well, just look at Kale. She went from the weakest contestant, period, in her base to a monster that overwhelmed SSj2 Goku completely. In the manga, she went from stronger than SSj Caulifla to able to wipe the floor with Golden Freeza and break through CSSB Goku's defenses, who was on par with Merged Zamasu. So the boost is definitely huge, bigger than any normal SSj transformation. And it only got bigger when Kale mastered it, making her able to hold her own somewhat against SSG Goku. So in raw power, I think it's actually as strong as a God form. It makes sense too, Kefla used her version of the form and managed to defeat SSB Goku, even with the kaioken, having her power compared to the Genki Dama that Goku used against Jiren.

If Goku would have it, he would at the very least be as strong as his SSG form, imo.
Goku had to shift from SSG to SSB in that fight. He needed 50 times SSG (and i am not lowballing here, there are guys that state SSB is only 2 to 5 times Red), multiplied with 20 times Kaioken, in order to counter Kefla. This basically means a multiplication with 1000 for the most to counteract Keflas Berserker form. SSG is probably a lot stronger than 1000 times base. After that the UI-game started, and Kefla applied SSJ2 to further enhance her Berserk-form. That doesn't really count in the equation. So yes, SSJ1 Berserk could be (a lot) stronger than SSJ3. But even if you highball Gokus SSB, you aren't coming arbitrarily close to SSG, based on what we know.
Last edited by Mister_Popo on Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hypothetical: Legendary Super Saiyan Goku

Post by Grimlock » Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:47 pm

Mister_Popo wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:10 pm
wouldn't it be common sense to refer to it as "LSSJ"?
'Cause Legendary Super Saiyan refers to the usual Super Saiyan, hence my confusion above. This green-haired thing should just probably get its own proper name.

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Re: Hypothetical: Legendary Super Saiyan Goku

Post by Mister_Popo » Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:03 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:47 pm
Mister_Popo wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:10 pm
wouldn't it be common sense to refer to it as "LSSJ"?
'Cause Legendary Super Saiyan refers to the usual Super Saiyan, hence my confusion above. This green-haired thing should just probably get its own proper name.

Fair enough. I guess it's personal. If one refers 'LSSJ' to me i always think about the green-haired form (hence the movie 8 title), if one refers to 'SSJ' i think about the golden hair forms. The one who started this topic also referred to the green form as being LSSJ i presume.
The Wikis also tend to refer to the green haired form as being LSSJ, not the golden SSJ.

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Re: Hypothetical: Legendary Super Saiyan Goku

Post by ankokudaishogun » Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:34 am

that's because a number of official stuff call it so.

Dokkan Battle, for example.

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