Is Spirit Control now the "catch-all" for the strange unexplained DB techniques?

[BWri]

Hey folks! I have a few questions for you all. Please, answer whichever questions catch your fancy. If you have theories, please share them as well.

1. The Topic Question.

2. How good are these techniques really in the grand multiverse?

3. Do you think even techniques like Tien's Four Witches were accomplished with Spirit Control?

4. What separates Spirit Control from Ki Control in your opinion?

5. Do you think earth's fighters in the DB era(up to 23rd TB) were already masters of Spirit Control? Do you think they are more adept then most others in the multiverse?

6. Is this concept well past the point of relevance or do you think it'll even matter against Moro?

7. Do you feel the heavy relevance of DB era techniques in DBS now is a retcon, considering they were only mildly useful at best in DBZ or do you feel this is all a natural progression of how things should be and have always been?

8. How do you overall feel about the concept of "Spirit Control" and the way it's explained so far in the Manga?

[ankokudaishogun]

Spirit Control is _JUST_ Ki Control with another name.

That's it

[BWri]

Spirit Control is _JUST_ Ki Control with another name.

That's it

But if that's the case, why is this all new to Vegeta? Shouldn't he have some degree of mastery of ki control, at least enough to more easily understand and perform techniques Goku had just as much difficulty with before learning Ki control? That enough shows me that there is a difference between the two concepts. The explanation given makes them sound the same, but they have to be some level of distinct for Vegeta to have trouble with one and near mastery of another.

[Mister_Popo]

Every fighting skill, technique or seemingly magic ability in the Dragonverse operates by Ki-manipulation IMO.
It all depends on what the beings ability or gift is and what it can learn to progress.
If the ultimate battle mode depends on freeing your mind during battle, it depends on how well you are capable in doing that.
Maybe Goku can empty his mind during battle more easily than Vegeta, and that explains why he is one step ahead in mastering a higher state than Blue. Maybe the Yardrats are no martial artists but they know how to do exceptional things by advancing their "Spirit control". It's just an advanced state of Ki-manipulation. If Vegeta learns it from them, he may be able to advance significantly as a fighter, at least against Moro.

[GodVegetto91]

Spirit Control is _JUST_ Ki Control with another name.

That's it

But if that's the case, why is this all new to Vegeta? Shouldn't he have some degree of mastery of ki control, at least enough to more easily understand and perform techniques Goku had just as much difficulty with before learning Ki control? That enough shows me that there is a difference between the two concepts. The explanation given makes them sound the same, but they have to be some level of distinct for Vegeta to have trouble with one and near mastery of another.

This! The idea that Spirit Control is the same is Ki Control is utter bullshit. They should’ve left that quote out in the manga, since it was totally unneccesary and causes way more confusion than clarification. They are clearly not the same. Since “Ki control” is exactly what Vegeta has learned from Whis and has now fully mastered in the form of SSJ Blue (which is just turning Super Saiyan AFTER you control your energy to such an extreme degree that it’s no longer leaking out of your body anymore) Hence it’s about keeping ALL your energy, including the aura inside you. This makes the aura of SSJ Blue like a holographic one. Hence “God ki”.

[Mister_Popo]

Indeed it seems like what Vegeta is learning isn't perfected Ki-control like he uses in Blue, he already has that.
We obviously know too little about what exactly Vegeta is learning from the Yardrats. The exact mechanism behind the mastery of UI isn't entirely clear as well. I think we know too little at this point to know what it exactly beholds.

[BWri]

Every fighting skill, technique or seemingly magic ability in the Dragonverse operates by Ki-manipulation IMO.

I would say that magic is it's own thing, at least it has seemed like that so far. This new definition of Spirit Control is beginning to make me (sort of) think otherwise, but I still see magic based abilities (magic materialization, candy beam, Babidi's sorceries, etc.) as separate from ki based arts. There's some abilities that may be an amalgam of both such as the Mafuba and the Devilmite Beam but ultimately, I don't see these being the same class of abilities.

It all depends on what the beings ability or gift is and what it can learn to progress.
If the ultimate battle mode depends on freeing your mind during battle, it depends on how well you are capable in doing that.
Maybe Goku can empty his mind during battle more easily than Vegeta, and that explains why he is one step ahead in mastering a higher state than Blue.

That's why Goku is ahead of everyone including Vegeta. He is the best pure martial artist in the entire show even including those like Roshi, Crane Hermit, Tao, Kami, and Tien.

Maybe the Yardrats are no martial artists but they know how to do exceptional things by advancing their "Spirit control". It's just an advanced state of Ki-manipulation. If Vegeta learns it from them, he may be able to advance significantly as a fighter, at least against Moro.

This makes sense. I think that's likely the difference (though poorly explained in the manga). I think Spirit Control is likely the manipulation of ki to do strange and wondrous things other than simply augmenting one's attack or firing beams of ki. Ki Control is likely the absolute control of the level of one's ki, useful so that one doesn't waste any ki at all. None of this is well explained IMO and it feels like we're treading old concepts and treating them as new again.

[BWri]

This! The idea that Spirit Control is the same is Ki Control is utter bullshit. They should’ve left that quote out in the manga, since it was totally unneccesary and causes way more confusion than clarification. They are clearly not the same. Since “Ki control” is exactly what Vegeta has learned from Whis and has now fully mastered in the form of SSJ Blue (which is just turning Super Saiyan AFTER you control your energy to such an extreme degree that it’s no longer leaking out of your body anymore) Hence it’s about keeping ALL your energy, including the aura inside you. This makes the aura of SSJ Blue like a holographic one. Hence “God ki”.

I agree. Maybe that's even the reason another word, in this case "spirit" is used. Spirit, implies spiritual which to me implies a spiritual use of one's ki. We know a wide variety of beings in the DB universe can use ki such as Frieza, his alien army and the Saiyans, but only a select few emphasize the spiritual aspects of it like our cast from Earth. We've seen time and time again how their applications and clever manipulation of ki gives them the advantage of aliens and other beings several times stronger than them. This makes me think that the Earth gang has been several steps ahead of most of the multiverse when it comes to mastery of Spirit Control.

My only gripe is I wish the importance of Spirit Control was emphasized more in Z but I'm glad it's getting some shine in Super.

[ankokudaishogun]

Spirit Control is _JUST_ Ki Control with another name.

That's it

But if that's the case, why is this all new to Vegeta?

Because it's a different APPLICATION of Ki Manipulation.
He'd probably have similar issues in learning Mafuuba or Tenshinhan's four-arms technique.

[Tai Lung]

They are the same thing ... even in the manga they makes it clear, is time of stop believing that that is different ...

the reason why vegeta has been chosen to learn new techniques is because it has the least versatile techniques in battle only offensive

[HeroR]

Indeed it seems like what Vegeta is learning isn't perfected Ki-control like he uses in Blue, he already has that.
We obviously know too little about what exactly Vegeta is learning from the Yardrats. The exact mechanism behind the mastery of UI isn't entirely clear as well. I think we know too little at this point to know what it exactly beholds.

It should be noted that perfect ki control and Blue is only said in the anime. I don't believe such a statement was ever said in the manga.

Spirit Control is _JUST_ Ki Control with another name.

That's it

But if that's the case, why is this all new to Vegeta? Shouldn't he have some degree of mastery of ki control, at least enough to more easily understand and perform techniques Goku had just as much difficulty with before learning Ki control? That enough shows me that there is a difference between the two concepts. The explanation given makes them sound the same, but they have to be some level of distinct for Vegeta to have trouble with one and near mastery of another.

This! The idea that Spirit Control is the same is Ki Control is utter bullshit. They should’ve left that quote out in the manga, since it was totally unneccesary and causes way more confusion than clarification. They are clearly not the same. Since “Ki control” is exactly what Vegeta has learned from Whis and has now fully mastered in the form of SSJ Blue (which is just turning Super Saiyan AFTER you control your energy to such an extreme degree that it’s no longer leaking out of your body anymore) Hence it’s about keeping ALL your energy, including the aura inside you. This makes the aura of SSJ Blue like a holographic one. Hence “God ki”.

Se the above. In the manga, I don't believe it was ever said ki control is necessary for Blue. The rest is really just head canon since it was never said anywhere, manga or anime, that keeping your ki in your body gives you god ki.

[Mister_Popo]

Se the above. In the manga, I don't believe it was ever said ki control is necessary for Blue. The rest is really just head canon since it was never said anywhere, manga or anime, that keeping your ki in your body gives you god ki.

How else do you explain, when in the mange they go MSSB, a form which even does not exist in the anime, there is even no aura visible?
Clearly because the advanced management has prevented them from any Ki leaking out. The more efficient this advanced Ki-control is applied, the stronger you get as a fighter.
What Vegeta is learning from the Yardrats, somehow works by a different mechanism, otherwise it would be of no use against Moro.
He simply absorbs the power, it doesn't matter how much you control it.

[BWri]

Spirit Control is _JUST_ Ki Control with another name.

That's it

But if that's the case, why is this all new to Vegeta?

Because it's a different APPLICATION of Ki Manipulation.
He'd probably have similar issues in learning Mafuuba or Tenshinhan's four-arms technique.

That's how it should be explained then. That makes far more sense. In the manga it's said that the Spirit in Spirit Control is the same as Ki and if Vegeta already has mastery of Ki Control then one would think he would not struggle with techniques the Earthlings mastered so early in their martial arts careers. Instead what this likely is, as you explained, are two separate facets of Ki Manipulation.

Ki Control = the precise control of the level (strength or output) of one's ki. Including techniques to minimize waste (diffusion) of it.
Spirit Control = using the more spiritual and esoteric aspects of ki manipulation to produce techniques that seem supernatural and otherworldly. All the earth based DB era techniques come to mind along with the Yardrat techniques. This is what separates our martial arts gurus from the brute force aliens in Frieza's army and other universes.

They are the same thing ... even in the manga they makes it clear, is time of stop believing that that is different ...

I just can't see them being the same. If so, Vegeta wouldn't need to retrain from scratch to learn mastery of Spirit Control if he already reached a high level in Ki Control. They simply cannot be the same if he is struggling this much with it unless Yardrat techniques are more advanced than Angelic ones and I just don't believe that to be the case. Although, it could be since IT is so good even compared to the likes of Whis' teleportation. But most of the techniques shown such as cloning and gigantification are just DB techniques that could be mastered by Tien and Piccolo. So if this stuff is the same, Tien and Piccolo are also masters of Ki Control. At this point they should be, but that's just not what the story is displaying to us. So, I believe it is time to stop believing they are the same instead

the reason why vegeta has been chosen to learn new techniques is because it has the least versatile techniques in battle only offensive

Well, yeah. I always found him to be a boring fighter compared to the others in terms of technique and strategy, 2nd only to adult Gohan. But still, he has his style and flair for the dramatic. I don't think reaching into the DB bag of goodies is what he needs because he's fundamentally a different type of fighter than Goku and the Earthlings, but IDK. We'll see where this goes.

[BWri]

Se the above. In the manga, I don't believe it was ever said ki control is necessary for Blue. The rest is really just head canon since it was never said anywhere, manga or anime, that keeping your ki in your body gives you god ki.

How else do you explain, when in the mange they go MSSB, a form which even does not exist in the anime, there is even no aura visible?
Clearly because the advanced management has prevented them from any Ki leaking out. The more efficient this advanced Ki-control is applied, the stronger you get as a fighter.
What Vegeta is learning from the Yardrats, somehow works by a different mechanism, otherwise it would be of no use against Moro.
He simply absorbs the power, it doesn't matter how much you control it.

I agree with this, but I feel like whatever Vegeta learns from them will be useless, at least it should be. Maybe one of the techniques, such as cloning, will allow him to get a tactical advantage with subterfuge, but I don't see how he could get something that would negate Moro's powers. At this point, I feel like the Justice League (Vegeta and Goku) need to bring in a buffed up, well-trained Justice League Dark (Majin Buu, Piccolo, and Kaioshin) to do the heavy lifting on the magic side of things while they punch Moro in the face.

[HeroR]

Se the above. In the manga, I don't believe it was ever said ki control is necessary for Blue. The rest is really just head canon since it was never said anywhere, manga or anime, that keeping your ki in your body gives you god ki.

How else do you explain, when in the mange they go MSSB, a form which even does not exist in the anime, there is even no aura visible?
Clearly because the advanced management has prevented them from any Ki leaking out. The more efficient this advanced Ki-control is applied, the stronger you get as a fighter.
What Vegeta is learning from the Yardrats, somehow works by a different mechanism, otherwise it would be of no use against Moro.
He simply absorbs the power, it doesn't matter how much you control it.

All they say about Master Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is that you hold you ki in to used Blue's full power. Not that Ki control is necessary. In fact, Master Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is no different from Master Super Saiyan from the Cell Games.

Vegeta went to Yadrate on a whim to find something. He never really had a plan.

[Mister_Popo]

Se the above. In the manga, I don't believe it was ever said ki control is necessary for Blue. The rest is really just head canon since it was never said anywhere, manga or anime, that keeping your ki in your body gives you god ki.

How else do you explain, when in the mange they go MSSB, a form which even does not exist in the anime, there is even no aura visible?
Clearly because the advanced management has prevented them from any Ki leaking out. The more efficient this advanced Ki-control is applied, the stronger you get as a fighter.
What Vegeta is learning from the Yardrats, somehow works by a different mechanism, otherwise it would be of no use against Moro.
He simply absorbs the power, it doesn't matter how much you control it.

All they say about Master Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is that you hold you ki in to used Blue's full power. Not that Ki control is necessary. In fact, Master Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is no different from Master Super Saiyan from the Cell Games.

Vegeta went to Yadrate on a whim to find something. He never really had a plan.

Could 'holding ones Ki resulting that nothing leaks out' in MSSB not be an ultimate manisfestation of perfected Ki-control? It takes perfect control to sustain that form and hold such a massive amount (fulll power Blue) for a prolonged period in your body in the first place. It's clearly an evolved state. There isn't much stamina in the casual manga Blue form to sustain it for long, they even had to alter with SSJG, so how could they really have 100 % control in check already? In the anime that perfected form does not exist, they learn the principle of perfected Ki-control straight in their casual Blue-forms from Whis. In the manga however MSSB seems to be the pinnacle of this principle.

The standard Blue form however definitely has the perfected Ki-control in check already, which is clearly mentioned in the anime, so why would it operate completely differently in the manga? I have followed the anime nearer than the manga, but was there something in the manga indicating a substantial difference in underlying mechanism?

And why would Blue in the manga in that case operate by a completely different mechanism?

Vegeta should have somehow presumed he could learn something 'extra' from the Yardrats he hadn't learned from Whis already or couldn't learn learn from him, why would he otherwise have made the trip? He is going to learn another form of Ki-manipulation, how this manifests itself physically (UI, shapeshifting?), remains to be seen. The events we are notiticing in the Moro-arc didn't yet happen in the anime. But this is all under the assumption these events are canonical as such and too important not to happen in the general storyline that's present in both anime and manga.

[Hulk10]

Different mechanism? What do you mean?

[Mister_Popo]

Different mechanism? What do you mean?

Blue in manga and Blue in anime, don't they work according to the same mechanism / principle?
Why would that be different in the manga?

[Hulk10]

Different mechanism? What do you mean?

What it means.
Blue in manga and Blue in anime, don't they work according to the same principle?
If there is a difference, what exactly is that difference?

I see, as I recall in the manga Blue loses power after a certain amount of time whereas in the anime it does not.

[Mister_Popo]

Different mechanism? What do you mean?

What it means.
Blue in manga and Blue in anime, don't they work according to the same principle?
If there is a difference, what exactly is that difference?

I see, as I recall in the manga Blue loses power after a certain amount of time whereas in the anime it does not.

I should think it would work according to the same principle: SSJ mixed with God-Ki.
The mechanism seems the same, in the manga however there seems to be different levels of control within Blue (casual vs Mastered).
In the anime there is only one Blue form who seems to have less stamina issues from time to time, but shouldn't he have those issues too if they were to be consistent?
During TOP the mixing between Blue and SSG was introduced, but not as extreme as in the manga.