Why don’t we have a Guidebook so far for the show

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Why don’t we have a Guidebook so far for the show

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:54 am

Kepiaschkz wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:39 am 8- What has been destroyed in Trunks world exactly ? Is the Grand Priest still alive there ? His present self didn't seem bothered in the slightest by the events that occurred there.
To quote Zeno himself:
All of existence, go away!
There's nothing left. Which makes sense. Zamasu merged with the very fabric of the cosmos, so it is only natural that the only way to erase him completely would be to utterly annihilate the entire cosmos.

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Re: Why don’t we have a Guidebook so far for the show

Post by Grimlock » Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:57 am

Kepiaschkz wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:39 am7- Updated timeline with Super events. In what age takes place each arc.
I mean, we don't need that if it's just for the sake of knowing when the sagas take place, because we know it already. But a timeline to fix all the new problems would be welcome.
Kepiaschkz wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:39 am10- Is there someone standing above Zeno? Who rules for exemple on multiple sets of multiverse or else on all timelines?
I never liked the idea of a Megaverse encompassing multiple Multiverses, it never made sense in the first place. But Dragon Ball managed to change that, a little. Since the Multiverse is supposed to act in pairs, it kind of makes sense to establish, for example, that the dead Universes (13 to 18) made up another Multiverse (seeing as the numbers wouldn't make sense to fit with the current Multiverse).

Well, you can take the guidebooks information about Toribot. It establishes him as someone above Zeno. Seeing as he is referred to as "ultimate ruler" or something.

Kaioshin of Time rules over timelines.
Last edited by Grimlock on Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why don’t we have a Guidebook so far for the show

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:00 am

Most of these questions are nitpickings. So far, the only thing that perhaps needs clarification is Zalama’s story, which might be in the plans for future plot points.

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Re: Why don’t we have a Guidebook so far for the show

Post by Kepiaschkz » Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:49 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:00 am Most of these questions are nitpickings. So far, the only thing that perhaps needs clarification is Zalama’s story, which might be in the plans for future plot points.
I know. But it still raise my interests since until clarification, that constitues inconsistencies for me. And I kinda like all that is lore related.
And some of theses questions could have huge implications regarding the plot.
The Kaioshin/Hakaishin life link already was a main issue in Future Trunks arc.
Also, If someone just dies ( killed by someone other than Zeno, so not technically erased ) at the Zeno world, does he goes to an alternate afterlife or is he simply erased from existence?
Does Zalama's have less, equal or more power than Zeno?
Grimlock wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:57 am
Well, you can take the guidebooks information about Toribot. It establishes him as someone above Zeno. Seeing as he is referred to as "ultimate ruler" or something.

Kaioshin of Time rules over timelines.
Well, regarding Toribot, for personal tastes, I would absolutely HATE him to be a thing in universe.
I mean, I don't mind small 4th wall breaking for humoristic purposes. I assimilate that to the magical machine gun that appears ex nihilo in Bulma's hands when she goes ballistic.
But I wouldn't stand big 4th wall breaking interfering with the main plot. For me, Toriyama or his avatar should remain separated with his work in universe.
Talk me about Deus ex machina, it would be one of the worse kind DB ever had. Worse than Zeno button.

Now, let's talk about the Kaioshin of time. Whoever rules over timelines should be above Zeno, hierarchy wise.

Why ? Well, first the ruler should not be cloned each time one additionnal timeline is created. But Zeno was. Then that would make timelines boss a unique being while there are multiple incarnations of Zeno.

Then, the timelines ruler rules over... multiple timelines while each incarnation of Zeno rule over a single timeline. And timeline isn't exactly the right term, since we don't know if Zeno can time travel freely, he is just the ruler of the present multiverse.

The multiple timelines are kinda multiples multiverse. In real world that kind of multiverses
( who are nearly identical from one another but diverged from one another by small changes) are named level 2 multiverse in meta-science.

So, knowing that, would you think the job would be given to a mere Kaioshin ? Even "of time" ?

The Kaioshin of time made her debuts in Heroes right? It was waaay before DBS, Zalama and Zeno were a concept. So it wouldn't be surprising that Toriyama retcon it.
After all, the Kaioshin of Time never appeared in the main continuity. We've seen more problematic retcons before.

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Re: Why don’t we have a Guidebook so far for the show

Post by VegettoEX » Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:38 pm

I believe the Kaioshin of Time was hinted at but not actually shown in Dragon Ball Online...? Someone who knows that better can please feel free to chime in on that.

She made her proper debut in the first Dragon Ball XENOVERSE, which released worldwide in February 2015 (a few months ahead of Super's debut). After that, she was back-ported/adopted into Heroes along with other Online / XENOVERSE material.
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Re: Why don’t we have a Guidebook so far for the show

Post by emperior » Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:12 pm

They are probably waiting for Super to be fully over, so as not to write stuff that could be changed by future stories.
Also most of the requests made here could surely be answered in the future by the show itself.
And last but not least, Super has two main continuities which makes it confusionary.
This may be a reason as to why they probably don’t want to write a guidebook about it.
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Re: Why don’t we have a Guidebook so far for the show

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:25 pm

Things like "The origin of the Dragon God Zalama" or the "Identity of someone above Zeno" are major reveals that should happen in the show itself imho.

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Re: Why don’t we have a Guidebook so far for the show

Post by Grimlock » Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:38 pm

Kepiaschkz wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:49 pmWell, regarding Toribot, for personal tastes, I would absolutely HATE him to be a thing in universe.
I mean, I don't mind small 4th wall breaking for humoristic purposes. I assimilate that to the magical machine gun that appears ex nihilo in Bulma's hands when she goes ballistic.
But I wouldn't stand big 4th wall breaking interfering with the main plot. For me, Toriyama or his avatar should remain separated with his work in universe.
Talk me about Deus ex machina, it would be one of the worse kind DB ever had. Worse than Zeno button.
It's already difficult to take Zeno as the ruler of the Multiverse just by his design alone. If you put him beside someone like Daishinkan, I think we can all agree which one we would assume to be the actual ruler. That said, I don't think Toribot keeping his gag nature and fourth wall breaking behavior would be that bad. I mean, Toribot would have one thing that even the likes of The Presence and One Above All seemingly don't have: they don't seem to be aware of what lies beyond the Megaverse (gotta give props to Vector Prime here, as he does).
Kepiaschkz wrote: Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:49 pmNow, let's talk about the Kaioshin of time. Whoever rules over timelines should be above Zeno, hierarchy wise.

Why ? Well, first the ruler should not be cloned each time one additionnal timeline is created. But Zeno was. Then that would make timelines boss a unique being while there are multiple incarnations of Zeno.

Then, the timelines ruler rules over... multiple timelines while each incarnation of Zeno rule over a single timeline. And timeline isn't exactly the right term, since we don't know if Zeno can time travel freely, he is just the ruler of the present multiverse.

The multiple timelines are kinda multiples multiverse. In real world that kind of multiverses
( who are nearly identical from one another but diverged from one another by small changes) are named level 2 multiverse in meta-science.

So, knowing that, would you think the job would be given to a mere Kaioshin ? Even "of time" ?

The Kaioshin of time made her debuts in Heroes right? It was waaay before DBS, Zalama and Zeno were a concept. So it wouldn't be surprising that Toriyama retcon it.
After all, the Kaioshin of Time never appeared in the main continuity. We've seen more problematic retcons before.
I agree with that notion. I already said this in another thread that it's bizarre to think that Kaioshin of Time is not affected by timelines, thus cannot have counterparts in this specific method, yet Zeno does. But if anything, that's Zeno's/Dragon Ball Super's problem. They really made a huge mistake once they decided that Zeno can also have a counterpart merely because of time travel.

I don't know what you mean by "mere Kaioshin", though. They come just after the angels (if they are part of the hierarchy) and are in the same tier as the Gods of Destruction, since Kaioshin is also Gods of Creation. Maybe entitle the role to Dai Kaioshin? Seeing as technically he is above a Kaioshin but now with all the Dragon Ball Super mess, it's probably better to leave it to a Kaioshin. Anyway, I do think that a deity of this tier can rule over time.

As said by VegettoEX, Kaioshin of Time was hinted in Dragon Ball Online. And while she hasn't appear yet indeed, she was mentioned in said game, which is the sequel of the manga, thus taking place in its continuity.
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Re: Why don’t we have a Guidebook so far for the show

Post by Rakurai » Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:03 am

I would LMAO if on an updated timeline of any sort, we see ??? where EoZ (18th Budokai Tenkaichi, Goku meeting Uub) should be in the DBSuper timeline. All to continue the DBS train and milk the main DB 'canon' for all it's worth.
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Re: Why don’t we have a Guidebook so far for the show

Post by BWri » Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:50 pm

I have this feeling that a guidebook would only introduce more confusion into things. Everything is already confusing enough. There's not even a single canon anymore. There would inevitably be errors in such a production just due to the web of information (both conflicting and conjoining) scattered across Super's various formats, which would just muddle things up if it's declared official. Because, let's face it, Toriyama-san will not abide by these things anyway and then it's just a countdown to the next series of retcons. But no, parts of the fandom will believe its canon, holier than thou material that has no flaws, while others can't abide by something so spotty being canon material and ignore it because there's no two base form theory, while the rest just don't care. That's a little hyperbolic, but I think you all know what I'm trying to say.
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