Was Fused Zamasu getting weaker after getting his Corrupted form?

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Was Fused Zamasu getting weaker after getting his Corrupted form?

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:05 am

I always thought he was at 100% all the time but then this line said by Shin while Vegetto and Fused Zamasu were fighting in episode 66 got me thinking:
Zamasu… He’s not healing, but falling apart!?
Could this mean he was getting weaker because he was falling apart? Did Shin only meant his aspect?

We know Fused Zamasu is immortal but it seems even immortals can get weaker since this is what Goku Black says in episode 64 after Zamasu escapes the Mafuba jar:
Zamasu's energy has been disappearing and reappearing... And it seems to be getting weaker now...
Maybe because of the Goku Black inside him, Fused Zamasu couldn't regain his lost energy like Future Zamasu could? Him getting weaker would sure make Future Trunks beating him make more sense. If he didn't get weaker then Future Trunks managed to surpass Vegetto Blue and that seems way too much.

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Re: Was Fused Zamasu getting weaker after getting his Corrupted form?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:33 am

I don't think he was getting weaker, he was just getting much slower due to bulking up so much. He was still very strong, but he became so slow in that Giant form that he just couldn't catch Vegito and unleash his power on him.

As a matter of fact Shin says that line as the camera shows Vegito and Fused Zamasu fighting evenly, so again I don't think the intention of the writers is showing that he got weaker, but that he was falling apart mentally and physically, and that he was getting slower. Vegito even trash talks him about that:
I thought your body was supposed to be the ultimate symbol and the weapon of your righteous rage, but it can't even keep up with me, can it?
Finally, Trunks did cleave him in half but Fused Zamasu still displayed immense physical strength, so much so that he could overpower him with just one punch. Trunks was just able to deliver the final blow after Vegito did most of the work with that Final Kamehameha and his ultimate punch, which was an attack meant to destroy Zamasu in one blow.
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Re: Was Fused Zamasu getting weaker after getting his Corrupted form?

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Dec 17, 2019 3:50 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:33 am
Finally, Trunks did cleave him in half but Fused Zamasu still displayed immense physical strength, so much so that he could overpower him with just one punch.
But this only happened before Future Trunks got the full power of the Genkidama. Once that happened he did overpowered him. Future Trunks even broke Fused Zamasu's Ki blade.

He's flat out stronger than him, no way around that and if Fused Zamasu didn't get weaker then Future Trunks reached Vegetto Blue's level, getting a boost comparable to Super Saiyan Blue's multiplier. That's insane.

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Re: Was Fused Zamasu getting weaker after getting his Corrupted form?

Post by Saimaroimaru » Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:22 am

I mean having a body that is fighting itself & literally breaking down can't exactly help his situation. It's clear to me at least that fighting Vegito pushed his unstable existence to or near the breaking point, & Trunks was there to make the snap.

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Re: Was Fused Zamasu getting weaker after getting his Corrupted form?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:24 am

ZombieVito wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 3:50 am
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:33 am
Finally, Trunks did cleave him in half but Fused Zamasu still displayed immense physical strength, so much so that he could overpower him with just one punch.
But this only happened before Future Trunks got the full power of the Genkidama. Once that happened he did overpowered him. Future Trunks even broke Fused Zamasu's Ki blade.

He's flat out stronger than him, no way around that and if Fused Zamasu didn't get weaker then Future Trunks reached Vegetto Blue's level, getting a boost comparable to Super Saiyan Blue's multiplier. That's insane.
Point taken, but why would Fused Zamasu become weaker when his body falling apart is precisely what gave him the power boost he needed to fight Vegito?

The only way to justify this is that his Corrupted form only gave him a temporary power boost, but Saiyan boosts never have a time limit, they are permanent.
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Re: Was Fused Zamasu getting weaker after getting his Corrupted form?

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Dec 17, 2019 12:48 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:24 am
ZombieVito wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 3:50 am
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:33 am
Finally, Trunks did cleave him in half but Fused Zamasu still displayed immense physical strength, so much so that he could overpower him with just one punch.
But this only happened before Future Trunks got the full power of the Genkidama. Once that happened he did overpowered him. Future Trunks even broke Fused Zamasu's Ki blade.

He's flat out stronger than him, no way around that and if Fused Zamasu didn't get weaker then Future Trunks reached Vegetto Blue's level, getting a boost comparable to Super Saiyan Blue's multiplier. That's insane.
Point taken, but why would Fused Zamasu become weaker when his body falling apart is precisely what gave him the power boost he needed to fight Vegito?

The only way to justify this is that his Corrupted form only gave him a temporary power boost, but Saiyan boosts never have a time limit, they are permanent.
Well, as I theorized on the OP, Future Zamasu can get weaker as said by Goku Black in E64 but thanks to his immortality his power/stamina goes back up. Fused Zamasu might not be so lucky thanks to the non-immortal Goku Black in him and can't regenerate stamina. Look at his Corrupted form as a double edge sword. You get a great power boost at the expense of your stamina not regenerating when damaged.

I always found it odd that Fused Zamasu wouldn't just regenerate after getting cut in half and kill them easily. We see him talking and we know he destroyed hismelf so he's still immortal so maybe he was just too weak stamina wise to even bother with that and decided to just destroy himself to turn into Infinite Zamasu instead.

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Re: Was Fused Zamasu getting weaker after getting his Corrupted form?

Post by Thani » Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:05 pm

The way I saw it, Corrupted Zamasu is basically Zamasu using his full power and abusing Black's unique way of gaining power through pain. He became stronger then, enough to completely match Vegito Blue (though not overpower him) for a while. The strain of the battle, however, was becoming too much for his body to handle, and every new wound would destabilize it more and more. To my understanding, Zamasu began getting slower after bulking up in an attempt to remain in the fight. His body was already so grotesque that, to me, was the point his immortality was no longer functioning as intended. He could recover, but the more damage he took, the worse he got.

So when Vegito hit him with the Final Kamehameha, it was the breaking point, even if it not looked like it. Zamasu's ki was being drained to mantain his body intact, because of the flawed immortality. He was still stronger than an exhausted Goku and Vegeta, obviously, but I assumed he reached his limit. Enough that Trunks, who already had a power similar to a SSB, overwhelm him with his Spirit Sword/Sword of Victory. The how is irrelevant, that was rule of drama/cool at work, but the narrative was that Trunks would be able to finish Zamasu off then.

So to me, it would be: Zamasu got weaker (1), was trashed beyond what his pseudo-immortality could handle properly (2), and made himself much slower by bulking up (3). Those three disadvantages were what allowed Trunks to ultimately overpower Zamasu.

But all that is meaningless since he could just make himself one with the concept of justice itself. Talk about unfair.

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Re: Was Fused Zamasu getting weaker after getting his Corrupted form?

Post by Lionel » Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:32 pm

If a person's mental state is integral to their ki then I can understand the argument of Zamasu becoming weaker as the battle progressed. Next to his body's unstable condition, his mind was unravelling because of the stress of the situation and the philosophy he adhered to being completely overwhelmed. Maybe that could also explain why Nappa was initially unable to fight adequately against Goku and why Gohan believed his ki was halved in the climax of the fight against Cell?

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Re: Was Fused Zamasu getting weaker after getting his Corrupted form?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:29 am

Lionel wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:32 pm
If a person's mental state is integral to their ki then I can understand the argument of Zamasu becoming weaker as the battle progressed. Next to his body's unstable condition, his mind was unravelling because of the stress of the situation and the philosophy he adhered to being completely overwhelmed. Maybe that could also explain why Nappa was initially unable to fight adequately against Goku and why Gohan believed his ki was halved in the climax of the fight against Cell?
What about Jiren? His strength increased significantly when he went insane and succumbed to his stress.
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Re: Was Fused Zamasu getting weaker after getting his Corrupted form?

Post by Lionel » Wed Dec 18, 2019 3:07 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:29 am
Lionel wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:32 pm
If a person's mental state is integral to their ki then I can understand the argument of Zamasu becoming weaker as the battle progressed. Next to his body's unstable condition, his mind was unravelling because of the stress of the situation and the philosophy he adhered to being completely overwhelmed. Maybe that could also explain why Nappa was initially unable to fight adequately against Goku and why Gohan believed his ki was halved in the climax of the fight against Cell?
What about Jiren? His strength increased significantly when he went insane and succumbed to his stress.
Wasn't he breaking through his own limitations or something? I can't fully remember the scene in question. Jiren's convictions were rooted in solitary strength concentrated within a juggernaut being the ultimate implement for justice. At that moment when he began to project that fiery aura, he was expressly determined to not regress back to the hapless state of a child he suffered before. There was disbelief at Goku' sudden surge of power, but it may not have been like the following introspection when he had been outfought by Goku despite this determination and was beginning to waver in his resolve to the point that he had to validate himself by attacking the fallen teammates, i.e Goku's source of strength. It had happened after Goku was obstinately professing it.

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Re: Was Fused Zamasu getting weaker after getting his Corrupted form?

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:02 am

I think that, quite to contrary, Zamas was getting stronger, even stronger than Vegetto, but he couldn’t keep up with him, because his body didn’t have the balance needed to control that power. Anyway, Trunks basically merged with the Earthlings’ power, which probably may explain why he managed to surpass Zamas and Vegetto.

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Re: Was Fused Zamasu getting weaker after getting his Corrupted form?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:26 pm

Lionel wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 3:07 am
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:29 am
Lionel wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:32 pm
If a person's mental state is integral to their ki then I can understand the argument of Zamasu becoming weaker as the battle progressed. Next to his body's unstable condition, his mind was unravelling because of the stress of the situation and the philosophy he adhered to being completely overwhelmed. Maybe that could also explain why Nappa was initially unable to fight adequately against Goku and why Gohan believed his ki was halved in the climax of the fight against Cell?
What about Jiren? His strength increased significantly when he went insane and succumbed to his stress.
Wasn't he breaking through his own limitations or something? I can't fully remember the scene in question. Jiren's convictions were rooted in solitary strength concentrated within a juggernaut being the ultimate implement for justice. At that moment when he began to project that fiery aura, he was expressly determined to not regress back to the hapless state of a child he suffered before. There was disbelief at Goku' sudden surge of power, but it may not have been like the following introspection when he had been outfought by Goku despite this determination and was beginning to waver in his resolve to the point that he had to validate himself by attacking the fallen teammates, i.e Goku's source of strength. It had happened after Goku was obstinately professing it.
He did precisely what you said initially:
his mind was unravelling because of the stress of the situation and the philosophy he adhered to being completely overwhelmed. Maybe that could also explain why Nappa was initially unable to fight adequately against Goku and why Gohan believed his ki was halved in the climax of the fight against Cell?
He went insane due to the stress of him getting demolished by Ultra Instinct Goku, and at the same time he reflected on how his philosophy that "might makes right" and "strength is absolute" was failing (note that by "insane", I am not comparing him to Fused Zamasu, I am just saying that he lost his composure and became much more vicious). Even so, his power kept increasing exponentially to the point that he overpowered MUI Goku and only lost the fight after, in a final fit of rage, he attacked Goku's friends.

Point is, I don't think it's true that just because you are going insane/unable to focus you grow weaker. Both Fused Zamasu and Jiren prove this in my opinion, because they increased their strength precisely when they were losing their mind.
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Re: Was Fused Zamasu getting weaker after getting his Corrupted form?

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:41 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:02 am
I think that, quite to contrary, Zamas was getting stronger, even stronger than Vegetto, but he couldn’t keep up with him, because his body didn’t have the balance needed to control that power. Anyway, Trunks basically merged with the Earthlings’ power, which probably may explain why he managed to surpass Zamas and Vegetto.
I wouldn't go that far.

Toei's official timeline does say Vegetto overwhelmed Fused Zamasu. So he really shouldn't be stronger than Vegetto.

P.S. So you believe the planet, a couple of Earthlings and an exhausted base Goku and Vegeta could make Future Trunks jump to low GoD tier power?

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Re: Was Fused Zamasu getting weaker after getting his Corrupted form?

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Dec 19, 2019 8:37 am

ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:41 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:02 am
I think that, quite to contrary, Zamas was getting stronger, even stronger than Vegetto, but he couldn’t keep up with him, because his body didn’t have the balance needed to control that power. Anyway, Trunks basically merged with the Earthlings’ power, which probably may explain why he managed to surpass Zamas and Vegetto.
I wouldn't go that far.

Toei's official timeline does say Vegetto overwhelmed Fused Zamasu. So he really shouldn't be stronger than Vegetto.

P.S. So you believe the planet, a couple of Earthlings and an exhausted base Goku and Vegeta could make Future Trunks jump to low GoD tier power?
I think this is a similar situation to Cell’s fight. Too much brute force, but the speed couldn’t keep up. Since Vegetto had better balance and wasn’t too far behind, he had the advantage.

Well, Zamas couldn’t believe the power of the spirit sword, so I think his reaction speaks for itself.

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