How did Gohan get that much weaker between Z and Super?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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ankokudaishogun
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Re: How did Gohan get that much weaker between Z and Super?

Post by ankokudaishogun » Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:05 am

Makes sense.

Also, post-Buu he could leave the fighting to his father so he probably focused on his studies and relationship with Videl, skipping regular workouts he probably did before

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Re: How did Gohan get that much weaker between Z and Super?

Post by Kagari » Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:42 pm

emperior wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:11 am
I think Super retconned BoG Gohan to be already quite weakened, making his RoF self make more sense.

It’s weird though that Gohan kept all his muscle mass after slacking off for 7 years, and could still go SS2, while in RoF he lost all his muscle and was barely able to transform.
I guess during the 7 years of peace he still trained a little bit here and there but had no fights and didn’t train to his limits, and that’s why he got so rusty.
I don't think so actually. The BoG TV model sheets for him go into depth about his Ultimate form.

Image

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Re: How did Gohan get that much weaker between Z and Super?

Post by emperior » Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:24 pm

Kagari wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:42 pm
emperior wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:11 am
I think Super retconned BoG Gohan to be already quite weakened, making his RoF self make more sense.

It’s weird though that Gohan kept all his muscle mass after slacking off for 7 years, and could still go SS2, while in RoF he lost all his muscle and was barely able to transform.
I guess during the 7 years of peace he still trained a little bit here and there but had no fights and didn’t train to his limits, and that’s why he got so rusty.
I don't think so actually. The BoG TV model sheets for him go into depth about his Ultimate form.

Image
Wow, I had never seen this sheet before. Thanks for sharing.

I will at least headcanon that Gohan wasn’t in his peak form there, and had already lost some muscle mass by BoG, considering how he’s wearing long sleeves in the manga/TV version and so we cannot see how his body looked there.
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Kagari
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Re: How did Gohan get that much weaker between Z and Super?

Post by Kagari » Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:42 pm

emperior wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:24 pm
Kagari wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:42 pm
emperior wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:11 am
I think Super retconned BoG Gohan to be already quite weakened, making his RoF self make more sense.

It’s weird though that Gohan kept all his muscle mass after slacking off for 7 years, and could still go SS2, while in RoF he lost all his muscle and was barely able to transform.
I guess during the 7 years of peace he still trained a little bit here and there but had no fights and didn’t train to his limits, and that’s why he got so rusty.
I don't think so actually. The BoG TV model sheets for him go into depth about his Ultimate form.

Image
Wow, I had never seen this sheet before. Thanks for sharing.

I will at least headcanon that Gohan wasn’t in his peak form there, and had already lost some muscle mass by BoG, considering how he’s wearing long sleeves in the manga/TV version and so we cannot see how his body looked there.
I'm just gonna go with RoF being the outlier lol. Because it really is. Especially since Toei was allowed to stack him back up right after.

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Re: How did Gohan get that much weaker between Z and Super?

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:18 pm

Kagari wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:42 pm
emperior wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:11 am
I think Super retconned BoG Gohan to be already quite weakened, making his RoF self make more sense.

It’s weird though that Gohan kept all his muscle mass after slacking off for 7 years, and could still go SS2, while in RoF he lost all his muscle and was barely able to transform.
I guess during the 7 years of peace he still trained a little bit here and there but had no fights and didn’t train to his limits, and that’s why he got so rusty.
I don't think so actually. The BoG TV model sheets for him go into depth about his Ultimate form.

Image
What does the sheet say Kags?

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Re: How did Gohan get that much weaker between Z and Super?

Post by Issei189 » Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:56 am

Kagari wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:42 pm
emperior wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:11 am
I think Super retconned BoG Gohan to be already quite weakened, making his RoF self make more sense.

It’s weird though that Gohan kept all his muscle mass after slacking off for 7 years, and could still go SS2, while in RoF he lost all his muscle and was barely able to transform.
I guess during the 7 years of peace he still trained a little bit here and there but had no fights and didn’t train to his limits, and that’s why he got so rusty.
I don't think so actually. The BoG TV model sheets for him go into depth about his Ultimate form.

Image
That's Awesome. Where did do find this sheet ?

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Re: How did Gohan get that much weaker between Z and Super?

Post by JulieYBM » Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:43 pm

OmegaKing wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:59 am
He went from kicked Super Buu’s ass in base form to being forced into Super Saiyan by someone only marginally stronger than Captain Ginyu, and even then 1st Form Frieza recked him. Like damn 4 years of slacking can set you back 2 sagas of power ups and training?
He got hit in his solar plexus, of course he's going down in one blow.
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Re: How did Gohan get that much weaker between Z and Super?

Post by BWri » Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:35 pm

wolflonnie wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:35 pm
Kataphrut wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 11:08 am
I've often said that I feel like they forgot they made Piccolo stronger than a Super Saiyan in the Cell saga. The fact that Dabura dismissed him, the fact that Frost was considered too much for him, struggling against Shisami/Tagoma. He gets a raw deal.

As for Gohan, he got lazy and didn't train. That was the idea they went with, I don't think you can try to "mathematically" chart his decline or how it compares to other examples.
Maybe, but then it's shown Piccolo flat out overpowering SSJ2 Gohan while training.
Manga is more consistent with Piccolo. By pushing himself he managed to fight evenly with Final Form Frost, but it did require an obscene amount of stamina. That is a fair basis for the major power boost we see him get later. In the Super anime, Piccolo's power boost just before the ToP comes out of nowhere like many of the other characters, but in the manga, he and Gohan have indeed been steadily improving and showing it.

Gohan did get weaker, but I see some are discounting how strong Tagoma and Frieza had gotten in this time. IRL there was a ton of wonky writing during this part, and more than a little forgetfulness. Frieza's self assessment of his own power level in the original script is proof enough of that. Gohan and Piccolo were portrayed as way weaker than they should have been, however, that is lessened by the fact that Frieza and Tagoma were buffed so hard. It kinda doesn't matter exactly how strong Gohan and Piccolo or Frieza and Tagoma are as long as

A). Gohan and Piccolo are stronger than the other Earthlings
B). Gohan is stronger than Piccolo
C). Tagoma is strong enough to be a threat to Gohan and Piccolo
D). Frieza in all his forms is stronger than Gohan, Piccolo, and Tagoma
E). Goku and Vegeta are stronger than all the other clowns and a match for Frieza in his strongest form.

Now, that isn't how I feel, but that is essentially all the the script called for, preceding details from the franchise be damned. As long as that heirarchy of needs is met, the script can function.

What realistically should have happened was, Frieza has way more than 1000 soldiers, 5000 at the very least. Gohan and Piccolo body most of them with the awesome help of Roshi, Tien, Krillin, Yamcha, #18, Chiaotsu, Jaco and even frickin' Mr. Satan, maybe some early DB faces too like Shen, Eighter, and Tao. Frieza, of course, notices and increase in power from Piccolo and Gohan. He takes out Piccolo himself, remembering how meddlesome he was the last time while Piccolo is fighting his powered up henchman (Tagoma or Shisami). Then he has a one on one fight with Gohan after Gohan takes out the henchman. Gohan's strength once more surprises Frieza, as he is weaker than his Buu saga self, but not so dramatically weaker as in RoF as this has never been a thing in DB before or after this event. Gohan is strong enough to push Frieza to form #2 (or final form, depends on how strong you want to make Gohan) before getting dropped. Goku and Vegeta show and and the plot continues as before. Easy! Everybody looks good and it makes more sense from a continuity perspective. And we also followup on old encounters. Frieza should likely have as much malice for Gohan, Krillin, and Piccolo as he does for Goku and Vegeta. All of them hurt him in some way, shape, or form before and messed up his plans majorly.
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Re: How did Gohan get that much weaker between Z and Super?

Post by BagetaSama » Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:50 am

OmegaKing wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:59 am
He went from kicked Super Buu’s ass in base form to being forced into Super Saiyan by someone only marginally stronger than Captain Ginyu, and even then 1st Form Frieza recked him. Like damn 4 years of slacking can set you back 2 sagas of power ups and training?
except he didn't lose to somebody marginally stronger than ginyu?? and the 1st form freeza he lost to is extremely strong. Theres nothing that suggests he actually got that much weaker. I mean his base form was still above piccolo.

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Re: How did Gohan get that much weaker between Z and Super?

Post by funrush » Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:12 am

Two factors. First, this first form Freeza is probably much much more powerful than DBZ First Form Freeza. Multiple times stronger.

Second, we are probably to assume that Gohan hasn't trained at all since the Buu Saga. When you don't use your muscles, they weaken. So Gohan just isn't the badass he was before, because he stopped working to retain it.

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Re: How did Gohan get that much weaker between Z and Super?

Post by Gligarman » Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:45 am

One thing that's made clear in the manga and to a slightly lesser extent the Japanese version of the anime is that Gohan is not a fighter at heart. Frankly, he's a dork. He doesn't like being forced to study by his mom but he would do it anyway because he likes being a scholar. Given the option he chose not to train because he didn't feel like he had to. One of the things I always loved about Piccolo is that overtime he understands and respects this.

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Re: How did Gohan get that much weaker between Z and Super?

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:11 pm

Gohan was an adult. Sometimes adults have to be adults and skip less important things. If Goku and Vegeta weren’t there, he would probably be the one to get Ultra Instinct instead.

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Re: How did Gohan get that much weaker between Z and Super?

Post by Lionel » Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:06 pm

I think it would be appropriate to say that Gohan is more of a casual fighting enthusiast instead of a conscientious objector or philosophical dedicator of combat. He's not like Goku or Vegeta but I wouldn't exactly categorise him with a retired Roshi either. Gohan doesn't like to bloody his hands if he can help it but having a good scrap in a tournament or against friends/siblings is enjoyable for him. If it wasn't for his responsibilities he might actually continue training to an extent. We know he did so between the Saiyan and Namek arcs and again between Freeza and Android arcs when there wasn't any expectation of a threat to prepare for.

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