Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

BWri
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 804
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 1:56 pm
Contact:

Re: Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by BWri » Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:18 am

Lord Beerus wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 11:15 am
Honestly, how strong characters get in Dragon Ball is to the whims of the plot and pure convenience from Toriyama. All Toei and Toyotaro have done is take that mindset and stretch the liberty of it to such an absurd degree.
This, of course, is the real answer. But the other things you said are more interesting for me to respond to.

#17 has infinite stamina, barely needs to sleep, eat or drink, add in the fact he's mostly human, means that he can train for a long as he wants without ever getting tired. And considering Gero amplified his strength to be much more power than Mecha Freeza, his gains in training could potentially be substantial.
True, but Piccolo has access to some of the best training methods in the multiverse, ones that Dr. Gero would likely know nothing about. I'm not even talking about the RoSaT. I'm just talking about pure esoteric knowledge on how to gain strength and train effectively. Piccolo's knowledge in this realm is unearthly and supernatural. #17 just likely has a knowledge base of earthly athletics and body some scientific knowledge of ki expansion, but really, that should not rival several hundred years of fighting and training experience especially when Piccolo already had such a substantial lead on him in power by the end of the Cell arc.
Piccolo hit a glass ceiling all the way back in the Cell arc, so honestly it's a miracle he became as strong as he did.
False. There was a point where many in the fandom nearly made me believe this, but it never made any sense to me and there was never any definitive proof to it, nothing close to it either. There are no limits in DB, at least when it comes to increasing one's power. Some just increase slower than others, but no, there are no caps. I repeat, there are no caps in Dragon Ball. No hard limitations. With proper training and a little rub from the author, anyone can gain massive amounts of strength at any point in time, even if they are seemingly stagnant. We've seen it time and time again.
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-

User avatar
Acetona
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 133
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2016 6:08 pm
Location: デジタルワールド
Contact:

Re: Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by Acetona » Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:27 pm

funrush wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 3:37 pm
Super's power-scaling generally makes no sense, so chances are there's no explanation. Roshi holds his own against Freeza's army even though he's Raditz-tier at best.
Let's not forget: Tenshinhan trains everyday non-stop since the start of the series. Roshi spent years without any training and surpassed with much less time of training hidden from everyone (so, he didn't have any strong sparring partner). It's really ridiculous...
キミもテイマーをめざせ!

User avatar
Surai
Newbie
Posts: 46
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:04 pm

Re: Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by Surai » Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:46 pm

It kinda makes sense in a way. 17's natural strength is insane, even greater than Freeza's. So the fact that he grew stronger at a much faster pace compared to Piccolo by training for 12 years is understandable.

User avatar
It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips
Regular
Posts: 586
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:16 pm

Re: Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:36 pm

Because Piccolo is the new Tenshinhan and Tenshinhan is the new Yamcha. They're legacy characters that the plot has no idea what to do with but isn't allowed to perma kill
My opinions suck. You should probably mute me to spare yourself having to see them.

Cigarettes and Whisky and Wild, Wild Women are the only reasons to get out of bed.

User avatar
Piccolo_Daima
Newbie
Posts: 44
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:42 pm

Re: Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by Piccolo_Daima » Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:22 pm

In DBZ Android 17 was no match for Cell in his first form, and Cell in his first form was no match for a SS2, and Piccolo in Super has defeated Gohan in SS2 easily, So Piccolo in Super is much stronger than a SS2

Now there's no logic in how Android 17 got stronger than a SS2, he did nothing special to get that power, he was just the guardian of an island... I mean, it's a dumb and silly that being the guardian of an island gives you SS2 powers.

Since Piccolo defeated SS2 Gohan with ease, the logic says that he should be stronger than Android 17, cause Android 17 in DBZ was nowhere near a SS2 level, and being a guardian of an Island couldn't have increased his power that much.

User avatar
Koitsukai
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1296
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:47 pm

The manga implies that the Cell Jr. live on 17's island (how were they revived IDK). One of them would be stronger than Cell Games SS Vegeta, giving 17 a good sparring partner. Plus 6 more of them.

User avatar
Surai
Newbie
Posts: 46
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:04 pm

Re: Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by Surai » Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:14 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:47 pm
The manga implies that the Cell Jr. live on 17's island (how were they revived IDK).
They've jut regenerated from their core.

Your explanation only works for the manga since they didn't survive in the anime.

User avatar
Koitsukai
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1296
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:19 pm

Surai wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:14 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:47 pm
The manga implies that the Cell Jr. live on 17's island (how were they revived IDK).
They've jut regenerated from their core.

Your explanation only works for the manga since they didn't survive in the anime.
In the anime Gohan killed 8 out of 7 just to be sure :lol:
But didn't he also kill all of them in the manga? in a more graphic way too.

User avatar
Surai
Newbie
Posts: 46
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:04 pm

Re: Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by Surai » Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:42 pm

We didn't see them explode in the manga. I guess that works because Gohan didn't destroy their core and had no idea they could regenerate like their father.

Honestly that's still silly, the fact they survived in the manga without anyone noticing it... And I have a hard time accepting their redemption since we didn't get to see them become good guys. Last time we saw them, they were evil and sadistic, torturing the heroes and toying with them for pleasure before suffering a gruesome death for their sins. Then after 12 years, we suddenly find out they're alive and redeemed themselves. That's odd.

User avatar
It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips
Regular
Posts: 586
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:16 pm

Re: Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:04 pm

Surai wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:42 pm
We didn't see them explode in the manga. I guess that works because Gohan didn't destroy their core and had no idea they could regenerate like their father.
I have no idea what will be considered canon from week to week but Piccolo's minions (Drum and the rest) couldn't regenerate. At least no faster than a normal person. So is that another of Piccolo's abilities that Gero buffed? Now all offspring created by the original retain the full powers of the original? At that point why not just decide that Cell pulled a Piccolo and created a "successor" to carry out his will, one with all his memories and abilities fully intact. Would have made a better addition to the team than deadweight like Tenshinhan and mostly deadweight Roshi.
My opinions suck. You should probably mute me to spare yourself having to see them.

Cigarettes and Whisky and Wild, Wild Women are the only reasons to get out of bed.

User avatar
Lionel
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1858
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:54 am

Re: Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by Lionel » Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:27 pm

The Cell Jrs' survival somewhat besmirches the consequentiality of Gohan's peaked outpouring of rage and fury, if you ask me. Toriyama/Toyotaro probably didn't put much thought into the notion of it. It was a character whom they could use to play off of Goten and Trunks while giving a more expansive involvement to #17's relatively obscured fate after the Cell arc.

If #17 had been taking advantage of the Cell Jrs to improve his power then it must not have been too much initially as the Daizenshuu leads one to believe he was killed by Super Buu along with everyone else sans Mr Satan, Bee, Tenshinhan, and Chaozu. Unless he's so adamant about remaining out of world affairs that he's willing to jeopardise not only his own safety but his family's and the island's animals as well, he likely couldn't do much against Buu. If he could then why not make haste and rush over to aid everyone once Babidi starts telegraphing Buu and his intentions to the world?

We can't pinpoint exactly how much Piccolo has improved by in the manga but it's probably a lot if the opponent he could pressure in the Champa arc was prompting the Saiyans to transform. Already by the beginning of BOG we see Goku showing confidence in his ability to fight Kid Buu with just SSJ1 during his image training. Who knows how much stronger he became between then and the Universe 6 tournament. By proximity and effort to his enemies, there's some implications for Piccolo there as well.

User avatar
Koitsukai
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1296
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:47 pm

Lionel wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:27 pm
If #17 had been taking advantage of the Cell Jrs to improve his power then it must not have been too much initially as the Daizenshuu leads one to believe he was killed by Super Buu along with everyone else sans Mr Satan, Bee, Tenshinhan, and Chaozu. Unless he's so adamant about remaining out of world affairs that he's willing to jeopardise not only his own safety but his family's and the island's animals as well, he likely couldn't do much against Buu. If he could then why not make haste and rush over to aid everyone once Babidi starts telegraphing Buu and his intentions to the world?
I agree that the Cell Jrs survival lowers the price of Gohan's rage.

About 17, I think it is safe to assume he dodged Buu's beam just like Tenshinhan did, even Chaozu could. Or maybe he died and that prompted him to get stronger.
His personality though, that is something else. When Goku went to recruit him, he didn't give a damn about the universal extinction that was about to happen, so probably when Buu striked he cared even less. I mean even with 3 kids on the line he wasn't going to join Goku and had no problem letting the island he lived to protect and his own family get zeno'ed, if in the Buu arc he was still a bachelor with no human ties to this world, I can totally see him chilling on the beach surrounded by unicorns while Buutenks is abusing Gohan.

User avatar
Peach
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 363
Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:57 am

Re: Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by Peach » Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:43 pm

Piccolo and the earthlings hit their ceiling at Cell saga.

Android 17 didn't start training until after Cell.

User avatar
TobyS
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1242
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:11 pm

Re: Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by TobyS » Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:59 pm

The cell Juniors have Cells abilities.

Cell can regenerate from a large portion of his mass like his legs, or his nucleous.
Gohan just ripped them apart but didn't disintrigrate them in manga canon.
Even in the anime it was only shown like that due to censorship.

Everyone not noticing them is totally plausible when they are focusing on the Gohan versus Cell fight in front of them, the biggest battle ever seen to date, it's probably even moved away from the jr's by that point.

They regened. Sensed Gohan was still there troubling their dad and ran away, possibly even supressing their chi.
Which would also be lower and Regenerating costs ki.

It's totally plausible.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

User avatar
TobyS
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1242
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:11 pm

Re: Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by TobyS » Thu Mar 12, 2020 3:10 pm

Lionel wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:27 pm

If #17 had been taking advantage of the Cell Jrs to improve his power then it must not have been too much initially as the Daizenshuu leads one to believe he was killed by Super Buu along with everyone else sans Mr Satan, Bee, Tenshinhan, and Chaozu. Unless he's so adamant about remaining out of world affairs that he's willing to jeopardise not only his own safety but his family's and the island's animals as well, he likely couldn't do much against Buu. If he could then why not make haste and rush over to aid everyone once Babidi starts telegraphing Buu and his intentions to the world?

We can't pinpoint exactly how much Piccolo has improved by in the manga but it's probably a lot if the opponent he could pressure in the Champa arc was prompting the Saiyans to transform. Already by the beginning of BOG we see Goku showing confidence in his ability to fight Kid Buu with just SSJ1 during his image training. Who knows how much stronger he became between then and the Universe 6 tournament. By proximity and effort to his enemies, there's some implications for Piccolo there as well.
How long was the gap between Cell and Buu vs the gap between Buu and ToP.
He might not have found the Jr's untill the latter period and only started improving then.
Also Buu might have got him while he was sleeping or something, as far as we know 17 can't sense chi right?
In fact getting merced by Buu might have started him off training, with or without the Jr's, or got him to step it up at least.

17 saying he didn't do much but did tame the Jr's is similar to Goten getting strong by playfighting with Trunks. The joke is that *is* good training even if the person doesn't realise it or see it as training.

Piccolo has obviously improved, there's no evidence he can't he's just not gonna unlock huge transforamtions and get a lot at once like a saiyan.

Frost was already beaten up by some indeterminate amount by Goku so it's hard to gauge there.

I wouldn't put much stock in Goku's image training scene. It's literally his imagination, he can imagine them strong or weak as he likes.

He didn't improve that much is 7 years of heaven training (his ss2 wasn't much more than Gohans) so why would he pre BoG?

In fact just popping out my manga, he rushes kid buu but never reaches him before Goten drives the tractor off the cliff, for all we know he was about to transform again. It's hardly evidence imo.

The best evidence for Piccolo is that Goku chooses him right after Buu, before a rusty Gohan and doesn't even mention 18, Tenshinhan or the boys or anything in the same breath, despite knowing he needs 5. He obviously just still considers Piccolo a top tier talent. Wether he's better than Gohan just because of his fighting instincts or he's actually stronger he doesn't consider any of the others above before Gohan I guess. It's a roundabout reccomendation.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

BagetaSama
Newbie
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:32 am

Re: Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by BagetaSama » Sat Mar 14, 2020 1:15 am

DestructoDisc wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:13 pm
Android 17 got this powerful because he trained for many years, while also occasionally spending time with his family. That makes me question why is Piccolo so much weaker than him when Piccolo does exactly the same thing. He also always trains, and occasionally takes care of Pan. That's it. So logically shouldn't Piccolo be around current Android 17's level?

Heck, even Tien should be much more powerful than he was portrayed in Super. This guy dedicated his entire life to nothing but training, didn't he?
Why would Piccolo be as strong as 17? Piccolo is going off of the natural abilities of his half-warrior half-dragon clan Namekian self, which is naturally extremely weak by DBZ standards. 17 meanwhile, is naturally as strong as Freeza, so he has massively more potential/natural abilities as Piccolo, and the training reflects that.

No, Tien should not be any stronger than he is. He has been completely irrelevant since the Namek arc, there's no reason why he should be able to catch up and actually be strong in any real capacity. The fact that he has been training his whole life shouldn't really matter given the precedent that we have.

There's no issues with where 17, Piccolo, and Tien stand compared to each other in Super.
ZombieVito wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:32 pm
Piccolo isn't as strong because he started at 260 while 17 started in the hundreds of millions.

It's that simple. It's unfair sure but that's how things go in modern DB.
It literally is that simple lol.

User avatar
FoolsGil
I Live Here
Posts: 4256
Joined: Tue May 21, 2013 10:37 pm

Re: Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by FoolsGil » Sat Mar 21, 2020 9:55 am

Because inconsistent writing for any of the main cast not a Saiyan, and 17 was a wild card needed to impress everyone.
Dragonball Exiles Chapter One. Chapter Two In Production.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 3428
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:35 am

Dragon Ball Super's manga chapter #58 strongly implies Piccolo has at least reached 17 level. So, perhaps Piccolo wasn't motivated enough?

User avatar
Lionel
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1858
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:54 am

Re: Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by Lionel » Sun Mar 22, 2020 2:58 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:35 am
Dragon Ball Super's manga chapter #58 strongly implies Piccolo has at least reached 17 level. So, perhaps Piccolo wasn't motivated enough?
I very much hope he reclaimed that stronger position. Piccolo is the reembodiment of the Child of Katatz, someone that was hailed for his "genius" potential. As to reasoning, we know Piccolo is constantly engaged in training. I don't think it's in Piccolo's nature to be complacent but for some reason after the Cell arc up until now his gains seemed unremarkable, not worth any acknowledgement by anyone. It's kind of silly.

User avatar
TobyS
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1242
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:11 pm

Re: Why isn't Piccolo as strong or even stronger than Android 17 currently is?

Post by TobyS » Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:11 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:35 am
Dragon Ball Super's manga chapter #58 strongly implies Piccolo has at least reached 17 level. So, perhaps Piccolo wasn't motivated enough?
I honestly think you could make an argument he's presented as slightly stronger.

The two cyborgs were brought in because of their inability to have their ki absorbed.

And then you have them beaten back by this stronger henchman and Gohan and Piccolo presented as hanging in there.

Obviously manga Gohan is strongest, and Piccolo is more his partner.

But I just think the fact it wasn't Gohan and 17 left standing implies he maybe is, it's hard to say.

Remember manga 17 was weaker in the first place, only proven to be around SS2 tier, as Goku felt the need to go SS3 but not God to fight him.

Goku comments on him and Gohan being even stronger than before as well. Obviously he can't sense the cyborgs but...

I choose to beleive Piccolo is up there now.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

Post Reply