Does the fact the DBS anime is not returning make you loose intrest in DB?

[Matches Malone]

I saw the DBZ run on TV when it was hot in Europe and Germany, and I was hyped by GT continuing what I loved in Z, tough it made the taste in my mouth little sour. I was sad that the whole show has this depressing vibe (dark visuals, dark and serious score, Piccolo dying and everyone getting old).

This is why I wanted Toriyama to come back to the franchise, for one last story. As much as I loved DB and Z, I didn't want GT to be the last thing I remembered about such a great franchise, for the reasons you mentioned and others. I would've been more than satisfied had the BOG movie been the only thing we got out of this revival, as not only did it make a great story (the original manga) even better, it washed out the terrible taste GT left behind.

[emperior]

Battle of Gods worked so well as an ending, that it showed how Goku leaving off with Uub can be topped with an even more appropriate ending - one which ties more deeply with Dragon Ball’s theme and Goku’s story.

Goku leaving with Uub is sort of a closure of the “next generation” theme which is also one of the themes which ran from the 22nd Budokai Tenkaichi, had its closure with Goku and company saving/helping saving the Earth a few times and then was sort of presented again through Gohan, then Toriyama picked it up again in the Buu arc, where it didn’t have a payoff: Goku leaving with Uub is a means to reinforce how “the next generation picks up from here” except we don’t see anything of Uub to know if he will have Goku’s drive and commitment to self-improvement, and the other next generation kids are Goten and Trunks who completely slacked off and showed little interest in martial arts, and Pan who is again too young for us to know what will be of her.
The final two chapters hardly sell the idea of a new generation taking over, when it also confirms Saiyans stay young for a long time (thus there should be no hurry for Goku to retire).

In this regards, Dragon Ball Super made a good call by focusing on the main theme of DB which was always that of self-improvement and how there’s always someone stronger out there (the theme running from the 21st Tenkaichi, which is were DB as we know started and the focus became the fights). And this theme was reinforced so much! After Buu it always felt like the universe had little challenge to offer to Goku, especially after the universe’s emperor and the million years creature feared by Kaioshin were defeated.

Now the DB world feels much more vast and we have been introduced to tons of incredible new fighters. This has only added more to the actual ending of the manga, but I feel like they could also move forward from thanks to the countless opportunities Super has created.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

Now the DB world feels much more vast and we have been introduced to tons of incredible new fighters. This has only added more to the actual ending of the manga, but I feel like they could also move forward from thanks to the countless opportunities Super has created.

The dragon ball world has never felt smaller. Across all the known universes only two (maybe three) fighters pose a challenge to Goku and of those fighter's one has been shown to be a gimmicky loser with no real fight ability and the other an immovable brick wall with no personality. These are not "infinite possibilities."

I saw the DBZ run on TV when it was hot in Europe and Germany, and I was hyped by GT continuing what I loved in Z, tough it made the taste in my mouth little sour. I was sad that the whole show has this depressing vibe (dark visuals, dark and serious score, Piccolo dying and everyone getting old).

This is why I wanted Toriyama to come back to the franchise, for one last story. As much as I loved DB and Z, I didn't want GT to be the last thing I remembered about such a great franchise, for the reasons you mentioned and others. I would've been more than satisfied had the BOG movie been the only thing we got out of this revival, as not only did it make a great story (the original manga) even better, it washed out the terrible taste GT left behind.

Heaven forbid a series go out on a somber note instead of something overly upbeat.

[Matches Malone]

Battle of Gods worked so well as an ending, that it showed how Goku leaving off with Uub can be topped with an even more appropriate ending - one which ties more deeply with Dragon Ball’s theme and Goku’s story.

My issue with the original manga's ending is that Goku's decision to leave things to the next generation felt a bit abrupt, especially with him being at the top of his game. By introducing someone like Beerus who Goku couldn't defeat, by having Beerus make it clear that there are countless others even stronger than him, and by making it clear multiple times that Goku reached his peak, Goku's motivation to pass the torch is more believable. As Roshi said to him and Krillin, there's always someone stronger, and Goku, like Roshi before him, met his match, so he's going to pass things down to the next generation of fighters, just as Roshi passed things down to him and his friends all those years ago.

Of course things continuing after BOG throws that whole thing out the window, but had it ended there, it would've been the perfect ending for someone like Goku, because a journey like Goku's can only end if it can't move ahead any further.

Heaven forbid a series go out on a somber note instead of something overly upbeat.

GT's tone isn't really an issue in of itself, it's the quality, it wasn't a good show. For a franchise that I love as much as DB, I don't want the last thing to come out of it be something so bad I have troubling staying awake through.

[emperior]

Now the DB world feels much more vast and we have been introduced to tons of incredible new fighters. This has only added more to the actual ending of the manga, but I feel like they could also move forward from thanks to the countless opportunities Super has created.

The dragon ball world has never felt smaller. Across all the known universes only two (maybe three) fighters pose a challenge to Goku and of those fighter's one has been shown to be a gimmicky loser with no real fight ability and the other an immovable brick wall with no personality. These are not "infinite possibilities."

Hard disagree. We have Toppo, Dyspo, Hit, the U6 Saiyans, Jiren, Broly, all the Gods of Destruction and the Angels as proof that there’s always someone stronger. And with Goku and Vegeta slowly surpassing these beings, it shows that anyone else driven enough could potentially do the same thing in the future and thus surpass Goku if he ever surpasses those beings himself.

All these foes have shown us that the world is full of special people. You can’t boil it down to only Jiren and

Battle of Gods worked so well as an ending, that it showed how Goku leaving off with Uub can be topped with an even more appropriate ending - one which ties more deeply with Dragon Ball’s theme and Goku’s story.

My issue with the original manga's ending is that Goku's decision to leave things to the next generation felt a bit abrupt, especially with him being at the top of his game. By introducing someone like Beerus who Goku couldn't defeat, by having Beerus make it clear that there are countless others even stronger than him, and by making it clear multiple times that Goku reached his peak, Goku's motivation to pass the torch is more believable. As Roshi said to him and Krillin, there's always someone stronger, and Goku, like Roshi before him, met his match, so he's going to pass things down to the next generation of fighters, just as Roshi passed things down to him and his friends all those years ago.

Of course things continuing after BOG throws that whole thing out the window, but had it ended there, it would've been the perfect ending for someone like Goku, because a journey like Goku's can only end if it can't move ahead any further.

But the point of Goku’s character is that he always aims to improve himself. To put an hardcap to his power would be against what he is. Kame Sennin’s case was a different one.
In fact the ending of the manga still made it clear that Goku’s reason to train Uub was to have a new rival, not only to pass the torch.

Battle of Gods’ ending works perfectly because it brings back the “there’s always someone stronger out there” angle spectacularly, but it also would have sort of clashed with manga’s ending if that angle wasn’t explored further, because Uub is still chronologically after Beerus. We would have been left wondering if Goku ever had a rematch with Beerus.

It was sort of a missed opportunity to not have Battle of Gods take place after Uub’s training was over. To have BoG’s ending as the final ending of the story would have been so fitting. But my point is that it at least showed us that a better ending than the one we got can be possible.

[Skar]

But the point of Goku’s character is that he always aims to improve himself. To put an hardcap to his power would be against what he is. Kame Sennin’s case was a different one.

I always wondered about. I know a central theme of DB is "there's always someone out there stronger" but the power creep is so insane that I wonder how long it'll continue.

In the original series, new powerful characters and levels of power were introduced each saga. In DBS, Whis was introduced in the first saga and Zeno in the third. Each new challenge after that has been far weaker than the Angels let alone Zeno. The phrase "there's always a bigger fish" can't be applicable forever since the series already revealed The Biggest Fish of all. Is Goku eventually going to surpass the Angels and Zeno or hit a hard cap before that?

[Matches Malone]

I always wondered about. I know a central theme of DB is "there's always someone out there stronger" but the power creep is so insane that I wonder how long it'll continue.

What they might start doing is focusing on characters like Moro who can't be defeated with raw power, but instead require special methods to win.

[Skar]

What they might start doing is focusing on characters like Moro who can't be defeated with raw power, but instead require special methods to win.

That would be interesting but I think absorption will just be used to boost Moro up to +SSJB tier before they have to overpower him in the final battle. I could wrong since we don't know what Vegeta wanted to learn yet. Goku wanted to master UI which doesn't offer any special abilities so I assume he plans to keep dodge Moro's energy absorbing and take him down.

[SupremeKai25]

I always wondered about. I know a central theme of DB is "there's always someone out there stronger" but the power creep is so insane that I wonder how long it'll continue.

What they might start doing is focusing on characters like Moro who can't be defeated with raw power, but instead require special methods to win.

They already did that with Zamasu. He was immortal, so they could not defeat him through raw power alone (and they didn't even defeat him, in the end).

[SpiritBombTriumphant]

I always wondered about. I know a central theme of DB is "there's always someone out there stronger" but the power creep is so insane that I wonder how long it'll continue.

What they might start doing is focusing on characters like Moro who can't be defeated with raw power, but instead require special methods to win.

They already did that with Zamasu. He was immortal, so they could not defeat him through raw power alone (and they didn't even defeat him, in the end).

Technically, it's been said that the draft of the Future Trunks arc had Goku and Vegeta winning with SSB (no Vegetto). Let me see if I can find the article translation on Kanzenshuu. Here you go.

Were there any other difficult points?
Toyotarō: Zamasu actually wasn’t all that strong of a character in the original draft I received from Toriyama-sensei. Though immortal, his strength was such that two Super Saiyan Blues were more than enough to take him on. It’s precisely because of this that in the original draft things unfolded so that his “immortality” and “Potara time limit” became key, and Goku and Vegeta took turns fighting him. Goku and Vegeta didn’t fuse in the original draft. Their personalities made any fusion after the Majin Boo arc impossible. However, I wanted to meet the readers’ expectations… And so, I made a scenario where “even if they shouldn’t really fuse, now they have absolutely no choice but to fuse”.

This is what gets me about Toyotaro. He wanted to "meet the readers' expectations." Toriyama was about going against that. I would've heavily preferred the two didn't fuse against Zamasu because after Boo they said they hated it. After Freeza's resurrection, they still hated it. I think this is one of his bad inputs to the series, but still better than the anime version of the arc nonetheless.

[SupremeKai25]

What they might start doing is focusing on characters like Moro who can't be defeated with raw power, but instead require special methods to win.

They already did that with Zamasu. He was immortal, so they could not defeat him through raw power alone (and they didn't even defeat him, in the end).

Technically, it's been said that the draft of the Future Trunks arc had Goku and Vegeta winning with SSB (no Vegetto). Let me see if I can find the article translation on Kanzenshuu. Here you go.

Were there any other difficult points?
Toyotarō: Zamasu actually wasn’t all that strong of a character in the original draft I received from Toriyama-sensei. Though immortal, his strength was such that two Super Saiyan Blues were more than enough to take him on. It’s precisely because of this that in the original draft things unfolded so that his “immortality” and “Potara time limit” became key, and Goku and Vegeta took turns fighting him. Goku and Vegeta didn’t fuse in the original draft. Their personalities made any fusion after the Majin Boo arc impossible. However, I wanted to meet the readers’ expectations… And so, I made a scenario where “even if they shouldn’t really fuse, now they have absolutely no choice but to fuse”.

This is what gets me about Toyotaro. He wanted to "meet the readers' expectations." Toriyama was about going against that. I would've heavily preferred the two didn't fuse against Zamasu because after Boo they said they hated it. After Freeza's resurrection, they still hated it. I think this is one of his bad inputs to the series, but still better than the anime version of the arc nonetheless.

Well they still wouldn't have been able to defeat Future Zamasu. Since he was immortal they needed another method to defeat him (the Mafuba, the Zeno Button, that special Angel-technique Whis mentioned, etc.). There's really no way of fighting an immortal character in the traditional way, and I don't like how Zamasu's defeat comes down to a deus ex machina. Honestly I don't think Moro will be as unique as Immortal Zamasu, he will probably lose after being overpowered. That is more cliché, but at least it's hard to screw it up.

(Do take my opinion with a grain of salt, I haven't been following the Moro arc, so I don't know if this antagonist has any gimmick aside from his planet absorption thing)

[SpiritBombTriumphant]

I don't like how Zamasu's defeat comes down to a deus ex machina. Honestly I don't think Moro will be as unique as Immortal Zamasu, he will probably lose after being overpowered. That is more cliché, but at least it's hard to screw it up.

Technically it wasn't. For it to be deus ex machina, Zeno would have had to just randomly come to Goku without anything to warrant it whatsoever. Goku was given the button earlier in the arc so it was easily planned for Zeno to be the one killing Zamasu. It's only deus ex machina if it is figuratively pulled out of the ass and would likely never happen. Since Zeno's appearance was obviously planned with Goku having the button, it is not. A more appropriate-ish example of deus ex machina would be if Goku using the Hakai against Zamasu had worked and finished him off for good.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

Hard disagree. We have Toppo, Dyspo, Hit, the U6 Saiyans, Jiren, Broly, all the Gods of Destruction and the Angels as proof that there’s always someone stronger. And with Goku and Vegeta slowly surpassing these beings, it shows that anyone else driven enough could potentially do the same thing in the future and thus surpass Goku if he ever surpasses those beings himself.

All these foes have shown us that the world is full of special people. You can’t boil it down to only Jiren and

No.

We are shown the greatest fighters of eight universes. Of those fighters only Jiren and Hit are presented as challenges to Goku. Toppo is such a joke that even after becoming a God of Destruction he still couldn't push past Vegeta. Hit's gimmicky abilities are shown to be negated by any of the big three's (Vegeta, Jiren, and Goku) full power. Everyone else is so far below Goku's level that even Roshi is competitive against them. That's the best 8 universes could produce.

So no the universes are not huge wonderous places filled with possibility. They're Yamcha-tier outside of a handful of fighters Goku has either already surpassed or on his way to surpassing.

GT's tone isn't really an issue in of itself, it's the quality, it wasn't a good show. For a franchise that I love as much as DB, I don't want the last thing to come out of it be something so bad I have troubling staying awake through.

It was the tone you guys were singling out. And Super is, in my opinion, much worse than GT so the quality arguments feel empty.

But, to be fair, I don't think I'm pretty biased against Super. I'm never going to get past Super's Goku being a fifty year old martial artist who isn't taking on students, he isn't training others or helping them on their own martial journeys, and he consistently comes across as less deserving and interesting than the antagonists he's beating. I didn't mind it in OG Dragon Ball because he was taking the first steps on his journey, I didn't mind it in Z because he was a martial arts genius coming into his prime, and I didn't mind it in GT because the aesthetics of decay and aging presented those battles as the last hoorah of the best warrior a generation produced.

Super turned Goku into Ash Ketchum. Forever retreading the same steps on his journey and traped in the same body he had twenty years ago.

[Matches Malone]

It was the tone you guys were singling out. And Super is, in my opinion, much worse than GT so the quality arguments feel empty. Super turned Goku into Ash Ketchum. Forever retreading the same steps on his journey and traped in the same body he had twenty years ago.

I wasn't comparing Super as a whole to GT. I was simply explaining why I wanted Toriyama to come out of retirement and give us one last story (which was the BOG movie), as I didn't want GT to be the last thing to come out of a franchise I loved so much. When it comes to Super as a whole, I prefer it over GT, but I recognize it has a lot of problems.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

It was the tone you guys were singling out. And Super is, in my opinion, much worse than GT so the quality arguments feel empty. Super turned Goku into Ash Ketchum. Forever retreading the same steps on his journey and traped in the same body he had twenty years ago.

I wasn't comparing Super as a whole to GT. I was simply explaining why I wanted Toriyama to come out of retirement and give us one last story (which was the BOG movie), as I didn't want GT to be the last thing to come out of a franchise I loved so much. When it comes to Super as a whole, I prefer it over GT, but I recognize it has a lot of problems.

That's fair. Sorry for my tone. Reading that back I was way too aggressive and flippant.

[Matches Malone]

That's fair. Sorry for my tone. Reading that back I was way too aggressive and flippant.

Your comment was fine, no need to apologies.

[SupremeKai25]

I don't like how Zamasu's defeat comes down to a deus ex machina. Honestly I don't think Moro will be as unique as Immortal Zamasu, he will probably lose after being overpowered. That is more cliché, but at least it's hard to screw it up.

Technically it wasn't. For it to be deus ex machina, Zeno would have had to just randomly come to Goku without anything to warrant it whatsoever. Goku was given the button earlier in the arc so it was easily planned for Zeno to be the one killing Zamasu. It's only deus ex machina if it is figuratively pulled out of the ass and would likely never happen. Since Zeno's appearance was obviously planned with Goku having the button, it is not. A more appropriate-ish example of deus ex machina would be if Goku using the Hakai against Zamasu had worked and finished him off for good.

It was a deus ex machina and an asspull because there was no logical way the button could have stayed in Goku's pockets after all the the times he was damaged and thrown around by Black and Zamasu from ep. 55 to 67.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

I don't like how Zamasu's defeat comes down to a deus ex machina. Honestly I don't think Moro will be as unique as Immortal Zamasu, he will probably lose after being overpowered. That is more cliché, but at least it's hard to screw it up.

Technically it wasn't. For it to be deus ex machina, Zeno would have had to just randomly come to Goku without anything to warrant it whatsoever. Goku was given the button earlier in the arc so it was easily planned for Zeno to be the one killing Zamasu. It's only deus ex machina if it is figuratively pulled out of the ass and would likely never happen. Since Zeno's appearance was obviously planned with Goku having the button, it is not. A more appropriate-ish example of deus ex machina would be if Goku using the Hakai against Zamasu had worked and finished him off for good.

It was a deus ex machina and an asspull because there was no logical way the button could have stayed in Goku's pockets after all the the times he was damaged and thrown around by Black and Zamasu from ep. 55 to 67.

It's also still a deus ex machina even if it's something the audience knew was on the table from day one. Sisko flying into the wormhole at the climax of Sacrifice of Angels, the Great Eagles ferrying everybody around in Lord of the Rings, the navel officers we knew were looking for the lost children in Lord of the Flies and who discover them as the children descend into savagery. Those are all examples of deux ex machina.

Deux ex machina isn't always a bad thing. Sometimes they serve a very good narrative purpose. I don't really think Zeno counts as that but I do think it's worth remembering that a deux ex machina doesn't stop being one just because it enriches the story or was foreshadowed.

[SpiritBombTriumphant]

It was a deus ex machina and an asspull because there was no logical way the button could have stayed in Goku's pockets after all the the times he was damaged and thrown around by Black and Zamasu from ep. 55 to 67.

It's a cartoon. Fitting with cartoon logic, it's perfectly fine.

It's also still a deus ex machina even if it's something the audience knew was on the table from day one.

Deus ex machina is generally said to be when you don't know about something and it is not foreshadowed at all. An asspull by the author because he or she wrote him or herself into a corner and doesn't know how to logically get out of it. The orbs and the wish to save everything in Clannad were not deus ex machina because they were foreshadowed from episode 01. Goku using the button to summon Zeno is not DEM because he had it for a while before the final battle. It would be DEM if Zeno had just decided to warp to where everyone is in the future timeline without anyone calling him or anything and he ended up wiping everything out. But it was planned from the beginning.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

It's also still a deus ex machina even if it's something the audience knew was on the table from day one.

Deus ex machina is generally said to be when you don't know about something and it is not foreshadowed at all. An asspull by the author because he or she wrote him or herself into a corner and doesn't know how to logically get out of it. The orbs and the wish to save everything in Clannad were not deus ex machina because they were foreshadowed from episode 01. Goku using the button to summon Zeno is not DEM because he had it for a while before the final battle. It would be DEM if Zeno had just decided to warp to where everyone is in the future timeline without anyone calling him or anything and he ended up wiping everything out. But it was planned from the beginning.

And like I said that's not what deus ex machina means. Deus ex machina does not mean "asspull" and never has. If an outside power resolves an otherwise hopeless plot situation then it's a deus ex machina. It does not matter if it was foreshadowed much earlier in the story. Foreshadowing does not preclude something from being a deus ex machina. The heroes were fucked, Zeno was introduced to resolve the plot on their behalf, everyone gets a (mostly) happy ending. That's a deus ex machina.