What's missing in Super.

[Alruneia]

Anyone else feel like that the series has been held back by the characters aging or not really changing?

Yes. The passage of time is part of what makes Dragon Ball so special. I believe there's even an interview where this is acknowledged, relating to how Toriyama actually let Goku become an adult way back when (but I'd have to dig around to confirm that, so take this as unsourced for now). In any case, Dragon Ball has always been good with letting time pass (the time skips even get a bit extreme towards the end, with 7 years and then 10 years not counting Super). So yes, when Super comes after the original Dragon Ball story and time doesn't "pass properly" in it, a core element is missing.

[theherodjl]

What's missing in DBS is the feeling of true danger & hopelessness. Ever since Beerus, Whis, all the other overpowered deities, and especially the Super DBs were introduced, there just can't be a significant threat to the Z Senshi or universe anymore. Beerus can "Hakai" almost anyone out of existence, Whis can turn back time and also warn others in alternate timelines of anything sinister, Zeno can flip the "off" switch on an entire reality if it is compromised, and the Super DBs can "grant any wish.". There are a bunch of ways to quickly solve the problem of the latest villain trying to start shit and it makes me miss the days of old when the Z Senshi could only prep to the best of their ability to save the Earth/universe. The Moro arc is attempting to harken back to the pre-DBS era in presenting an antagonist who is putting everything at stake...but we all know Beerus is just a snack-run away from eradicating Moro.

[SupremeKai25]

What's missing in DBS is the feeling of true danger & hopelessness. Ever since Beerus, Whis, all the other overpowered deities, and especially the Super DBs were introduced, there just can't be a significant threat to the Z Senshi or universe anymore. Beerus can "Hakai" almost anyone out of existence, Whis can turn back time and also warn others in alternate timelines of anything sinister, Zeno can flip the "off" switch on an entire reality if it is compromised, and the Super DBs can "grant any wish.". There are a bunch of ways to quickly solve the problem of the latest villain trying to start shit and it makes me miss the days of old when the Z Senshi could only prep to the best of their ability to save the Earth/universe. The Moro arc is attempting to harken back to the pre-DBS era in presenting an antagonist who is putting everything at stake...but we all know Beerus is just a snack-run away from eradicating Moro.

What about Zamasu? He chose to invade Future Trunks timeline because Beerus and Whis were already gone, then he proceeded to exterminate all the other Gods and make sure no one would thwart his plans. He ultimately came very close to victory and was defeated only because another timeline's Goku befriended Zeno.... which was something that was beyond Zamasu's control. Even so, Zeno had to erase the entire multiverse to defeat Zamasu once and for all, depriving the protagonists of a happy ending. Indeed, that's why Trunks cried at the end. He failed to protect his timeline and has to go to a new one entirely. No Super Dragon Ball will ever fix that.

You said that true danger and hopelessness are missing in Super, I completely disagree. Again, Zamasu was basically an unstoppable enemy, since he had incredible Saiyan strength and immortality, and he utterly defeated the protagonists many times, forcing them to retreat twice.

About your last argument, if anything the stakes were even higher during the Zamasu arc. Because everyone knows Moro will ultimately lose, since Earth is fine by the End of Z. But since the Zamasu arc was located in an alternate timeline, the Future Earth did not have plot armor from the End of Z.... and indeed, look what happened.

[Whis]

What's missing in DBS is the feeling of true danger & hopelessness. Ever since Beerus, Whis, all the other overpowered deities, and especially the Super DBs were introduced, there just can't be a significant threat to the Z Senshi or universe anymore. Beerus can "Hakai" almost anyone out of existence, Whis can turn back time and also warn others in alternate timelines of anything sinister, Zeno can flip the "off" switch on an entire reality if it is compromised, and the Super DBs can "grant any wish.". There are a bunch of ways to quickly solve the problem of the latest villain trying to start shit and it makes me miss the days of old when the Z Senshi could only prep to the best of their ability to save the Earth/universe. The Moro arc is attempting to harken back to the pre-DBS era in presenting an antagonist who is putting everything at stake...but we all know Beerus is just a snack-run away from eradicating Moro.

Yeah I agree the ending to Future Trunks arc was quite anti-climatic and cheap. I really liked the story up until Zamasu went Dr. Evil on the whole universe. The ending could've been written so much better if they didn't include the macguffin-button.

[theherodjl]

What about Zamasu? He chose to invade Future Trunks timeline because Beerus and Whis were already gone, then he proceeded to exterminate all the other Gods and make sure no one would thwart his plans. He ultimately came very close to victory and was defeated only because another timeline's Goku befriended Zeno.... which was something that was beyond Zamasu's control. Even so, Zeno had to erase the entire multiverse to defeat Zamasu once and for all, depriving the protagonists of a happy ending. Indeed, that's why Trunks cried at the end. He failed to protect his timeline and has to go to a new one entirely. No Super Dragon Ball will ever fix that.

You said that true danger and hopelessness are missing in Super, I completely disagree. Again, Zamasu was basically an unstoppable enemy, since he had incredible Saiyan strength and immortality, and he utterly defeated the protagonists many times, forcing them to retreat twice.

About your last argument, if anything the stakes were even higher during the Zamasu arc. Because everyone knows Moro will ultimately lose, since Earth is fine by the End of Z. But since the Zamasu arc was located in an alternate timeline, the Future Earth did not have plot armor from the End of Z.... and indeed, look what happened.

Zamasu tried but his overconfidence that Zeno could not possibly ever appear to stop his plan and eradicate him was ultimately a bad conclusion. He had further opportunity to use the Super DBs to guarantee that his plan succeeded but Zamasu let his sadism of killing mortals override that decision.
Speaking of the Super DBs, they probably could use them to bring back Trunks' future minus Zamasu but its possible that Daishinkan is keeping tabs & authority on their usage since he demonstrated that they are capable of undoing Zeno's erasure.

[SupremeKai25]

What about Zamasu? He chose to invade Future Trunks timeline because Beerus and Whis were already gone, then he proceeded to exterminate all the other Gods and make sure no one would thwart his plans. He ultimately came very close to victory and was defeated only because another timeline's Goku befriended Zeno.... which was something that was beyond Zamasu's control. Even so, Zeno had to erase the entire multiverse to defeat Zamasu once and for all, depriving the protagonists of a happy ending. Indeed, that's why Trunks cried at the end. He failed to protect his timeline and has to go to a new one entirely. No Super Dragon Ball will ever fix that.

You said that true danger and hopelessness are missing in Super, I completely disagree. Again, Zamasu was basically an unstoppable enemy, since he had incredible Saiyan strength and immortality, and he utterly defeated the protagonists many times, forcing them to retreat twice.

About your last argument, if anything the stakes were even higher during the Zamasu arc. Because everyone knows Moro will ultimately lose, since Earth is fine by the End of Z. But since the Zamasu arc was located in an alternate timeline, the Future Earth did not have plot armor from the End of Z.... and indeed, look what happened.

Zamasu tried but his overconfidence that Zeno could not possibly ever appear to stop his plan and eradicate him was ultimately a bad conclusion. He had further opportunity to use the Super DBs to guarantee that his plan succeeded but Zamasu let his sadism of killing mortals override that decision.
Speaking of the Super DBs, they probably could use them to bring back Trunks' future minus Zamasu but its possible that Daishinkan is keeping tabs & authority on their usage since he demonstrated that they are capable of undoing Zeno's erasure.

Zamasu was not really overconfident as far as Zeno is concerned. No one could have anticipated his intervention. Even the Z Fighters were surprised when they saw Zeno, because Goku never told anyone that he had that button and he himself had forgotten about it. Up until that point, Zamasu did a perfect job in acting in secrecy, in fact Zeno had no clue of what was happening with the whole Project Zero Mortals. Plus Zamasu was smart, if he still had his sanity when he met Zeno, he probably could've deceived him into thinking mortals were evil creatures and had to be destroyed (we know from the ToP that Zeno also had doubts about mortals and was willing to erase all of them if the final wish was selfish).

He didn't need to use the Dragon Balls again to succeed. He had the ultimate strength of a Saiyan and an immortal partner with whom he would've merged, and all the Gods were taken care of. There was no one left to oppose him, and that's why he destroyed the Dragon Balls, to make sure that nobody would try to use them against him to undo his work.

As for your final point, I'm not sure if that's possible... I mean, Zamasu merged with the very fabric of the cosmos, he WAS the universe in the end, so I don't know if they could bring back the Future multiverse without Zamasu. They'd have to be very precise with their wish.

What's missing in DBS is the feeling of true danger & hopelessness. Ever since Beerus, Whis, all the other overpowered deities, and especially the Super DBs were introduced, there just can't be a significant threat to the Z Senshi or universe anymore. Beerus can "Hakai" almost anyone out of existence, Whis can turn back time and also warn others in alternate timelines of anything sinister, Zeno can flip the "off" switch on an entire reality if it is compromised, and the Super DBs can "grant any wish.". There are a bunch of ways to quickly solve the problem of the latest villain trying to start shit and it makes me miss the days of old when the Z Senshi could only prep to the best of their ability to save the Earth/universe. The Moro arc is attempting to harken back to the pre-DBS era in presenting an antagonist who is putting everything at stake...but we all know Beerus is just a snack-run away from eradicating Moro.

Yeah I agree the ending to Future Trunks arc was quite anti-climatic and cheap. I really liked the story up until Zamasu went Dr. Evil on the whole universe. The ending could've been written so much better if they didn't include the macguffin-button.

Eh. Zamasu merging with the cosmos was fine, he had an immortal soul from Future Zamasu so it was clear that Trunks did not kill him. I agree that the ending was very anticlimactic due to the button.

[theherodjl]

Zamasu was not really overconfident as far as Zeno is concerned. No one could have anticipated his intervention. Even the Z Fighters were surprised when they saw Zeno, because Goku never told anyone that he had that button and he himself had forgotten about it. Up until that point, Zamasu did a perfect job in acting in secrecy, in fact Zeno had no clue of what was happening with the whole Project Zero Mortals. Plus Zamasu was smart, if he still had his sanity when he met Zeno, he probably could've deceived him into thinking mortals were evil creatures and had to be destroyed (we know from the ToP that Zeno also had doubts about mortals and was willing to erase all of them if the final wish was selfish).

He didn't need to use the Dragon Balls again to succeed. He had the ultimate strength of a Saiyan and an immortal partner with whom he would've merged, and all the Gods were taken care of. There was no one left to oppose him, and that's why he destroyed the Dragon Balls, to make sure that nobody would try to use them against him to undo his work.

As for your final point, I'm not sure if that's possible... I mean, Zamasu merged with the very fabric of the cosmos, he WAS the universe in the end, so I don't know if they could bring back the Future multiverse without Zamasu. They'd have to be very precise with their wish.

Zamasu was overconfident and while he might have had good reason to be, my point stands that it ultimately was in vain.
He definitely could've used the Super DBs to simply wish mortals away, Zamasu though opted against that to personally wipe out mortals himself because he's an anal-retentive sadist.
The Super DBs can grant "any" wish. If they can reverse the effects of Zeno's erasure and recreate reality from oblivion then subtracting Zamasu from the future timeline is definitely possible.

[SupremeKai25]

Zamasu was not really overconfident as far as Zeno is concerned. No one could have anticipated his intervention. Even the Z Fighters were surprised when they saw Zeno, because Goku never told anyone that he had that button and he himself had forgotten about it. Up until that point, Zamasu did a perfect job in acting in secrecy, in fact Zeno had no clue of what was happening with the whole Project Zero Mortals. Plus Zamasu was smart, if he still had his sanity when he met Zeno, he probably could've deceived him into thinking mortals were evil creatures and had to be destroyed (we know from the ToP that Zeno also had doubts about mortals and was willing to erase all of them if the final wish was selfish).

He didn't need to use the Dragon Balls again to succeed. He had the ultimate strength of a Saiyan and an immortal partner with whom he would've merged, and all the Gods were taken care of. There was no one left to oppose him, and that's why he destroyed the Dragon Balls, to make sure that nobody would try to use them against him to undo his work.

As for your final point, I'm not sure if that's possible... I mean, Zamasu merged with the very fabric of the cosmos, he WAS the universe in the end, so I don't know if they could bring back the Future multiverse without Zamasu. They'd have to be very precise with their wish.

Zamasu was overconfident and while he might have had good reason to be, my point stands that it ultimately was in vain.
He definitely could've used the Super DBs to simply wish mortals away, Zamasu though opted against that to personally wipe out mortals himself because he's an anal-retentive sadist.
The Super DBs can grant "any" wish. If they can reverse the effects of Zeno's erasure and recreate reality from oblivion then subtracting Zamasu from the future timeline is definitely possible.

But he was not overconfident, since he was acting in secrecy and making sure Zeno would not find out what he was doing. He directly addresses Zeno in the manga, which proves that he did acknowledge the threat he posed to his plans.

The success of his plan was guaranteed the moment he wished for immortality. Sure, wishing for all mortals to disappear would have obviously ensured instant victory, but he did not need to do that to suceed. He still wiped out pretty much everyone in the end, so I dont see how he was not a dangerous antagonist. As far as the scope of destruction is concerned, he shits on every Z villain.

[theherodjl]

But he was not overconfident, since he was acting in secrecy and making sure Zeno would not find out what he was doing. He directly addresses Zeno in the manga, which proves that he did acknowledge the threat he posed to his plans.

The success of his plan was guaranteed the moment he wished for immortality. Sure, wishing for all mortals to disappear would have obviously ensured instant victory, but he did not need to do that to suceed. He still wiped out pretty much everyone in the end, so I dont see how he was not a dangerous antagonist. As far as the scope of destruction is concerned, he shits on every Z villain.

Zamasu is lucky that Zeno doesn't pay attention to at least 99% of the events going down in the multiverse. Its not really secrecy but intentional ignorance on Zeno's part.
My point has never been that Zamasu was not dangerous but that true danger to the story of DB is kinda pointless when the little deux ex machina called Zeno can just raise his hands and say "be gone" to an entire reality including everyone who existed in it even to a multiversal degree. Had Zeno never had such power than Zamasu could be DB's equivalent of Mad Jim Jaspers and still be overtaking everything...but Toriyama occasionally shits on the story when he has run out of ideas.

[SupremeKai25]

But he was not overconfident, since he was acting in secrecy and making sure Zeno would not find out what he was doing. He directly addresses Zeno in the manga, which proves that he did acknowledge the threat he posed to his plans.

The success of his plan was guaranteed the moment he wished for immortality. Sure, wishing for all mortals to disappear would have obviously ensured instant victory, but he did not need to do that to suceed. He still wiped out pretty much everyone in the end, so I dont see how he was not a dangerous antagonist. As far as the scope of destruction is concerned, he shits on every Z villain.

Zamasu is lucky that Zeno doesn't pay attention to at least 99% of the events going down in the multiverse. Its not really secrecy but intentional ignorance on Zeno's part.
My point has never been that Zamasu was not dangerous but that true danger to the story of DB is kinda pointless when the little deux ex machina called Zeno can just raise his hands and say "be gone" to an entire reality including everyone who existed in it even to a multiversal degree. Had Zeno never had such power than Zamasu could be DB's equivalent of Mad Jim Jaspers and still be overtaking everything...but Toriyama occasionally shits on the story when he has run out of ideas.

Zeno himself has no love for mortals and was willing to erase them all. At that point in time, so before the ToP, he also didnt know whether mortals were selfish or not. So Zamasu could manipulate him pretty easily if it came to that. Obviously it would be risky, thats why Zamasu paid attention not to get caught by Zeno, but if Zeno were left alone with Zamasu (so no Goku to befriend him), then he would probably be deceived.

Your argument now has changed a little, initially you said that there was no feeling of danger or hopelessness in Super. Yes, I agree with you now, and I wonder why they dont just use the button to kill Moro. Especially since Moro did not devastate the Earth like Zamasu did, so Zeno would not want to get rid of the ugly and desolate world (thus they are not risking anything).

[Whis]

Blood, gore and limbs flying.

[Lord Beerus]

Blood, gore and limbs flying.

Please don't mistake Dragon Ball for American comic books. That's not to say that Dragon Ball doesn't get violent, but it's never over the top with it violence, and it sure as hell never crossed into the threshold of being gory.

[ZeroNeonix]

That's the biggest thing I miss from the original story. It gave the sense of these characters having real lives as their physical and fashion appearances changed on a constant basis. Now everyone's so afraid of leaving the status quo that Goku and Vegeta can't even get their outfits slightly changed much less replaced, something the original was never afraid of.

This is something that bugs me too. Goku and Vegeta got cool new outfits in Resurrection F, continuing the tradition of changing outfits after getting a new master. The new outfits really complimented the new Blue transformation well, especially with Vegeta's dark colors. But Super just replaced those cool new outfits with their old clothes because...nostalgia?

While I enjoy Super, I have a number of problems with it overall. It starts by giving us worse versions of Battle of Gods and Resurrection F, gives us a tiny arc that is fun, but not really plot heavy. Then it finally starts to feel almost like Z with the Zamasu arc, and then we go straight to another tournament again. It's like Toei is afraid to let the show evolve into its own thing, so they're holding it back and playing it safe.

[Whis]

Please don't mistake Dragon Ball for American comic books. That's not to say that Dragon Ball doesn't get violent, but it's never over the top with it violence, and it sure as hell never crossed into the threshold of being gory.

A bit overboard I'll admit but at least some blood wouldn't hurt but it's whatever now.

[SupremeKai25]

That's the biggest thing I miss from the original story. It gave the sense of these characters having real lives as their physical and fashion appearances changed on a constant basis. Now everyone's so afraid of leaving the status quo that Goku and Vegeta can't even get their outfits slightly changed much less replaced, something the original was never afraid of.

This is something that bugs me too. Goku and Vegeta got cool new outfits in Resurrection F, continuing the tradition of changing outfits after getting a new master. The new outfits really complimented the new Blue transformation well, especially with Vegeta's dark colors. But Super just replaced those cool new outfits with their old clothes because...nostalgia?

While I enjoy Super, I have a number of problems with it overall. It starts by giving us worse versions of Battle of Gods and Resurrection F, gives us a tiny arc that is fun, but not really plot heavy. Then it finally starts to feel almost like Z with the Zamasu arc, and then we go straight to another tournament again. It's like Toei is afraid to let the show evolve into its own thing, so they're holding it back and playing it safe.

Probably because the show takes place in that "peace period" between Z and and End of Z. Can't really have a lot of variety in arcs. Even the Zamasu arc, which is definitely as dark if not even darker than Z arcs, is basically limited to an alternate timeline and has little consequences on the main one. If they ever get past that End of Z time period, arcs might get a little crazier.

[ZeroNeonix]

Probably because the show takes place in that "peace period" between Z and and End of Z. Can't really have a lot of variety in arcs. Even the Zamasu arc, which is definitely as dark if not even darker than Z arcs, is basically limited to an alternate timeline and has little consequences on the main one. If they ever get past that End of Z time period, arcs might get a little crazier.

Does it still count as a period of peace when a God destruction threatens to blow up your planet, and an even bigger god threatens your entire universe? lol. Yeah, I'd like them to continue past the end of Z, but I think the ship has sailed as far as contradicting the notion that the times between Buu and Uub's appearance were without any serious threats.

[Whis]

Probably because the show takes place in that "peace period" between Z and and End of Z. Can't really have a lot of variety in arcs. Even the Zamasu arc, which is definitely as dark if not even darker than Z arcs, is basically limited to an alternate timeline and has little consequences on the main one. If they ever get past that End of Z time period, arcs might get a little crazier.

Does it still count as a period of peace when a God destruction threatens to blow up your planet, and an even bigger god threatens your entire universe? lol. Yeah, I'd like them to continue past the end of Z, but I think the ship has sailed as far as contradicting the notion that the times between Buu and Uub's appearance were without any serious threats.

I'm really wondering how many arcs we'll get before there's the timeskip to the end of Z, like how many arcs can we crank in there before Trunks and Goten even grow up.

[SupremeKai25]

Probably because the show takes place in that "peace period" between Z and and End of Z. Can't really have a lot of variety in arcs. Even the Zamasu arc, which is definitely as dark if not even darker than Z arcs, is basically limited to an alternate timeline and has little consequences on the main one. If they ever get past that End of Z time period, arcs might get a little crazier.

Does it still count as a period of peace when a God destruction threatens to blow up your planet, and an even bigger god threatens your entire universe? lol. Yeah, I'd like them to continue past the end of Z, but I think the ship has sailed as far as contradicting the notion that the times between Buu and Uub's appearance were without any serious threats.

Technically it doesn't, that's why I put it in quotations. Although it's pretty telling that the most dangerous antagonist was relegated to an alternate timeline.

[ZeroNeonix]

I like how Dende still refers to Majin Buu as Goku's greatest foe in Super.

"Pay no attention to the purple cat god who almost erased all of Earth and its inhabitants, after beating the tar out of Majin Buu himself! End of Z is still canon! We swear!"

[theherodjl]

This might be a nitpick...but also I feel like DBS might be lacking a sensible connection of strength levels to Goku & Oob's fight. When the final chapter of Z was initially written, Goku didn't have God Ki and a few more transformations to boot. As far as everyone knew at the time, Goku just had his traditional base & SSJ1-3. With the inclusion of DBS's challenges that has pushed even Base Goku to heights that the pre-BOG Goku could never have dreamed of, Oob now may have to be portrayed as being far, far stronger than initially believed if he is able to give Base Goku a convincing spar. It could be argued that Goku is simply holding waaay back but for everyone to still have such shocked impression of how strong Oob is nonetheless, I'm not feeling particularly confident that Goku is using any mere tiny fraction of his power in their fight.