SSGSS Evolution is a Disgustingly Bad, Ugly Transformation

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SSGSS Evolution is a Disgustingly Bad, Ugly Transformation

Post by Aim » Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:12 am

This is a very controversial opinion as I know, but I can’t get over some of the terrible designs Super had to offer, like God of Destruction Toppo. I’m going to be discussing one of Vegeta’s ‘fan favorite’ forms; Super Saiyan God SS Evolution.

Unimaginative Fan Service
With designs by the beloved Yamamuro and his new evolved art style that mixes buu saga designs with Toriyama’s realistic designs, we have this master piece:
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When I first witnessed this form I thought it was the combination of Super Saiyan Second Grade and SSGSS, or just SSGSS’s SSJ gone SSJ Second Grade. Apparently not. But it is?
Throughout the TOP arc/saga, lots of characters achieved transformations; Cabba going SSJ2; Caulifla and Kale going SSJ2; God of Destruction Toppo form; way too much. Apart from the others this form and Toppo's form look extremely fan art-ish. And usually the fan made characters and forms are the opposite of what makes Toriyama's Dragon ball, Dragon ball.

Terrible Macho Design
If Yamamuro's designs weren't bad enough, now we have a design that was reused from the Z era and made stiffer and visually unappealing to the eye.

Image Image

I'm probably in the minority here but I really enjoy Toriyama's slim designs, it reminds me of Bruce Lee. For some reason Super started to buff up characters which really lost the Toriyama feel for me.

I want to hear people's thoughts on this forms design, it basically looks to me like Second Grade SSJ with Super Saiyan God. I thought Second Grade looked okay, but this is just an ugly version with terrible effects that look like they came out of Adobe Flash.

Breaking the Lore& Defending the Form

Toriyama stated he wanted Goku to get less macho in his forms, this is displayed in SSGSS as well. The series has gone over how muscles too big slow down the users, it's also explained that Power Stressed forms drain ki a lot faster too.

I've noticed lots of people defend this transformation, yet lots of people criticize SSGSS for being a poorly designed 'recolor' that's 'too skinny'. Even after all the complaining about Blue, there's a special place for Evolution, for whatever reason. Huge muscles, an ugly glow, massive Second Grade SSJ hair, terrible over the top aura, for me this transformation was a huge let down and I find it hard to understand why people want this form to return to the anime.

I'll just come out and say it, there's not much to say but it's a bland, ugly form. I would have just preferred to have this form be a one time thing where Vegeta gets desperate and goes Second Grade to gain more power, but then the form fails on him. Instead it's made out to be this 'evolved' form that's almost identical to a form we saw back in the Cell Arc. I'll just let the pictures speak for themselves.
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Re: SSGSS Evolution is a Disgustingly Bad, Ugly Transformation

Post by emperior » Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:59 am

This opinion is not controversial at all. Vegeta’s evolved form and Toppo’s God of Destruction form are both terrible and so obviously not Toriyama’s. They visually do not belong to Dragon Ball and I am glad they do not appear in the manga (Vegeta has something similar there but it’s just an aura change).

For sure Yamamuro’s terrible design and the terrible aura made the form look even worse.
Also in one of those screens Vegeta has forearms bigger than his thighs.
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Re: SSGSS Evolution is a Disgustingly Bad, Ugly Transformation

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Sun Feb 23, 2020 12:01 pm

SSB Evolution is a transformation that increases the user's muscle mass, but it is nowhere near the same level as the SSJ grade 2. The SSBE definitely doesn't have muscles as big as that


Or this

And even if it did, it was clear that this transformation did not slow the user down. The only form that slows the user down due to excessive muscle growth is the SSJ grade 3.

So ... yeah, you can dislike the transformation as much as you want, but SSBE is different from SSJ Grade 2 in all aspects, even in the way it is obtained and the concept. Except for the increase in muscle, I don't understand why they compare the two so much.
Last edited by TheSaiyanGod on Sun Feb 23, 2020 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: SSGSS Evolution is a Disgustingly Bad, Ugly Transformation

Post by Matches Malone » Sun Feb 23, 2020 12:05 pm

The reason we ended up getting Blue evolution, is because Toei decided to go ahead and push Goku ahead of Vegeta by combining his Kaioken with Blue, despite Toriyama writing them as equals. The Black arc comes around and Toriyama still wrote them as equals, so Toei decided to temporarily write Kaioken out with the excuse that Goku couldn't control it. The tournament comes along and Toei faced the same problem, Goku and Vegeta were still being written as equals. They could've still used the excuse that he wasn't used to it, but then fans would question how that could be after training more, on top of the fact that fans would want to see Goku at his strongest against Jiren. The solution that made the most sense was to also give Vegeta something new, and like the kioken, they gave him something from his past to combine with Blue.

When it comes to Toppo, his transformation was to show how inexperienced he was as a destroyer. Unlike the others who could use their power as if it was nothing. He was forced to turn into a monster with a different personality to use it, which shows how far he has to go before he's a proper destroyer.

I understand why both forms may not be liked by everyone, but I think they were among the best things to come out of the tournament.

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Re: SSGSS Evolution is a Disgustingly Bad, Ugly Transformation

Post by Psajdak » Sun Feb 23, 2020 1:34 pm

The only problem I have with SSBE is that it doesn't really look that much different from SSB, IMO.

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Re: SSGSS Evolution is a Disgustingly Bad, Ugly Transformation

Post by DragonBallFoodie » Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:27 pm

Isn't it supposed to be a joke anyway?
"Don't take pleasure in destruction!" / "I will not let you destroy my world!"
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Re: SSGSS Evolution is a Disgustingly Bad, Ugly Transformation

Post by Tai Lung » Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:19 pm

SSBE is simply increasing the "Power" of vegeta represented as increasing muscle mass

in the manga exist is also but it is simply represented with the return of the aura ... a bit useless
emperior wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:59 am
This opinion is not controversial at all. Vegeta’s evolved form and Toppo’s God of Destruction form are both terrible and so obviously not Toriyama’s. They visually do not belong to Dragon Ball and I am glad they do not appear in the manga (Vegeta has something similar there but it’s just an aura change).

For sure Yamamuro’s terrible design and the terrible aura made the form look even worse.
Also in one of those screens Vegeta has forearms bigger than his thighs.
toppo god gives him something that he never had in the manga and that is called "presence" otherwise it would have been purely pathetic
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Re: SSGSS Evolution is a Disgustingly Bad, Ugly Transformation

Post by emperior » Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:08 pm

I just hate how nowadays so many foes have to either fuse or transform to be strong, and how the same happens for the heroes.
I much prefer what’s happening in the manga right now, where Moro doesn’t change form and Goku and Vegeta are both working to master a technique instead of another new transformation.
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Re: SSGSS Evolution is a Disgustingly Bad, Ugly Transformation

Post by Miracles » Sun Feb 23, 2020 4:53 pm

Be grateful OP. That form is a TOEI only original creation. It's not in Toriyama's movies.

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Re: SSGSS Evolution is a Disgustingly Bad, Ugly Transformation

Post by The Undying » Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:27 pm

I've posted a myriad reasons outlining my distaste for this form in the past, and it goes beyond just being "ugly" or "unimaginative", but I'll leave it at this general guideline:

Transformations are milestones; they should exist to serve and develop characters, not the other way around. Nonsense like Toppo's god form or Vegeta's SSBE are pointless distractions that do nothing for these characters beyond having them scream louder and make bigger explosions. That's boring.

And no, having them reflect on things that they never lost sight of in the first place to achieve these forms isn't character development. If anything, it's character regression. If they're not contributing anything beyond some sense of superficial "presence", they're totally superfluous and unnecessary.

Glad the manga didn't go this route.
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Re: SSGSS Evolution is a Disgustingly Bad, Ugly Transformation

Post by Tai Lung » Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:08 pm

The Undying wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:27 pm
I've posted a myriad reasons outlining my distaste for this form in the past, and it goes beyond just being "ugly" or "unimaginative", but I'll leave it at this general guideline:

Transformations are milestones; they should exist to serve and develop characters, not the other way around. Nonsense like Toppo's god form or Vegeta's SSBE are pointless distractions that do nothing for these characters beyond having them scream louder and make bigger explosions. That's boring.

And no, having them reflect on things that they never lost sight of in the first place to achieve these forms isn't character development. If anything, it's character regression. If they're not contributing anything beyond some sense of superficial "presence", they're totally superfluous and unnecessary.

Glad the manga didn't go this route.
that is false

SSJBE is the "natural" evolution of the power of "vegeta" he follow its own path to become stronger without having to abandon its conviction unlike toppo god, this transformation unlike of others is unique for vegeta and also is more a mental transformation and physical also "SSJBE" has a "connection" with Majin vegeta
vegeta abandoned his family and his pride for sell his soul to babidi in exchange for power.
Vegeta SSBE won power thanks to his natural evolution due to training with whis and not leave his pride, promises and his love for his family

when vegeta fought against toppo he became stronger because he represented the mistakes of his past

that trunks rage is a meaningless transformation does not mean that they all are ...

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Re: SSGSS Evolution is a Disgustingly Bad, Ugly Transformation

Post by The Undying » Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:39 pm

Tai Lung wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:08 pm
that is false
I'd prefer that you read what I wrote before deciding to type a response that bolsters what I wrote.

As I explained in my previous post, it is meaningless because it's redundant. You keep mentioning that it's some culmination of Vegeta choosing not to abandon his convictions or "love for his family", but these are parts of Vegeta's character that were already firmly established. These are parts that he hasn't lost sight of after the Boo arc.

We've known this since Battle of Gods. We've known it since the bingo dance. If the writers aren't actually doing anything with his Crest Toothpaste transformation to represent a new milestone for his character, there's nothing substantive to glean from it.

This isn't anything more than another flashy Toei gizmo designed to sell toys.
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Re: SSGSS Evolution is a Disgustingly Bad, Ugly Transformation

Post by emperior » Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:45 pm

The problem is that Evolution should have never been a transformation. Let Vegeta obtain a power-up because of whatever reasons and, at best, just change his hair to a darker blue and give him pupils but why the hell did they have to increase his muscle mass, make his hair longer and add that terrible aura?
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Re: SSGSS Evolution is a Disgustingly Bad, Ugly Transformation

Post by Alruneia » Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:10 pm

emperior wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:45 pm
[...]but why the hell did they have to increase his muscle mass, make his hair longer and add that terrible aura?
Same reason as why Toei had to give Gohan his bang back whenever he used Ultimate. They add in as many identifiers as they can so that it's extremely obvious which form a character is in at any given moment (particularly the moments when potential customers are looking at merch).
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Re: SSGSS Evolution is a Disgustingly Bad, Ugly Transformation

Post by Tai Lung » Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:33 pm

The Undying wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:39 pm
Tai Lung wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:08 pm
that is false
I'd prefer that you read what I wrote before deciding to type a response that bolsters what I wrote.

As I explained in my previous post, it is meaningless because it's redundant. You keep mentioning that it's some culmination of Vegeta choosing not to abandon his convictions or "love for his family", but these are parts of Vegeta's character that were already firmly established. These are parts that he hasn't lost sight of after the Boo arc.

We've known this since Battle of Gods. We've known it since the bingo dance. If the writers aren't actually doing anything with his Crest Toothpaste transformation to represent a new milestone for his character, there's nothing substantive to glean from it.

This isn't anything more than another flashy Toei gizmo designed to sell toys.
If they're not contributing anything beyond some sense of superficial "presence", they're totally superfluous and unnecessary.


that's what seems wrong

then you have forgotten all the steps of vegeta development ...
Vegeta tries to save everyone by sacrificing himself but fights with power that was granted by babidi

in the buu arc he accept that goku is number 1 and that he will never exceed it ...
in the movie he abandons his pride ...
in BofG vegeta only manages to distract beerus by abandoning his pride by kneeling in front him but no fight then vegeta would understand that goku is not invincible and that he should train not with the intention of overcoming it ... if not with the purpose of not staying behind to protect the others

in the fight against toppo it was the first time that vegeta did not abandon any of his convictions and became stronger by his own effort ... he defeat toppo God which did the opposite of him

the manga also sells toys ... not that it affects the series

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Re: SSGSS Evolution is a Disgustingly Bad, Ugly Transformation

Post by The Undying » Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:47 pm

Tai Lung wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:33 pm
in the movie he abandons his pride ...
You're consistently missing the point, so I'll break this down as much as possible:

Pride and conviction aren't synonymous. I was specifically talking about Vegeta's conviction and devotion to his family, neither of which were "abandoned" in Battle of Gods. The point of Vegeta's character progression in that particular story arc was to demonstrate the lengths he would go to save his family and friends from certain destruction, which didn't magically go away in subsequent arcs.

We can narrow the scope of this discussion to Vegeta's pride, but it doesn't change anything. In the Zamasu arc, he lectures Black about pride, reasserts his pride, consistently strives to protect his family and doesn't receive an arbitrary new form in the 11th hour for the sole purpose of pushing out merchandise.

These aren't new developments. This isn't breaking any ground for the character. Reminding himself of personality traits that he hasn't strayed from in several story arcs isn't progression, it's redundancy.

You can emphasize aspects of Vegeta's character that he has lost sight of to reach new heights, like, for example, choosing to play by his own rules rather than continue to train under Whis, but the anime doesn't take this approach. What the anime does is make Vegeta power up about a dozen times after reminiscing about goals he already has, relies on cheap nostalgia throwbacks for actual plot points and uses """self-destruction""" techniques that... don't actually self-destruct.

Utterly vapid and ridiculous.
Last edited by The Undying on Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SSGSS Evolution is a Disgustingly Bad, Ugly Transformation

Post by Metalwario64 » Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:05 pm

My problem is that with Yamamuro's current style, and it makes Vegeta in that form just looks like a freaking troll. That Z design sheet is so sharp, dynamic, and the muscles have great proportions and depth. The new art just looks like a beef monster who's hunched over and it's very flat. In the show it looked bad too.
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Re: SSGSS Evolution is a Disgustingly Bad, Ugly Transformation

Post by Miracles » Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:24 pm

Tai Lung wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:33 pm
The Undying wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:39 pm
Tai Lung wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:08 pm
that is false
I'd prefer that you read what I wrote before deciding to type a response that bolsters what I wrote.

As I explained in my previous post, it is meaningless because it's redundant.
If they're not contributing anything beyond some sense of superficial "presence", they're totally superfluous and unnecessary.


that's what seems wrong
@Tai Lung: The Undying is correct. He is simply saying; Vegeta getting power ups because of care for his family, doesn't add anything new, for the growth of Vegeta's character. Those traits already existed, therefore pointless.

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Re: SSGSS Evolution is a Disgustingly Bad, Ugly Transformation

Post by Tai Lung » Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:04 pm

The Undying wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:47 pm
Tai Lung wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 7:33 pm
in the movie he abandons his pride ...
You're consistently missing the point, so I'll break this down as much as possible:

Pride and conviction aren't synonymous. I was specifically talking about Vegeta's conviction and devotion to his family, neither of which were "abandoned" in Battle of Gods. The point of Vegeta's character progression in that particular story arc was to demonstrate the lengths he would go to save his family and friends from certain destruction, which didn't magically go away in subsequent arcs.

We can narrow the scope of this discussion to Vegeta's pride, but it doesn't change anything. In the Zamasu arc, he lectures Black about pride, reasserts his pride, consistently strives to protect his family and doesn't receive an arbitrary new form in the 11th hour for the sole purpose of pushing out merchandise.

These aren't new developments. This isn't breaking any ground for the character. Reminding himself of personality traits that he hasn't strayed from in several story arcs isn't progression, it's redundancy.

You can emphasize aspects of Vegeta's character that he has lost sight of to reach new heights, like, for example, choosing to play by his own rules rather than continue to train under Whis, but the anime doesn't take this approach. What the anime does is make Vegeta power up about a dozen times after reminiscing about goals he already has, rely on nostalgia throwbacks for actual plot points and use """self-destruction""" techniques that... don't actually self-destruct.

Utterly vapid and ridiculous.
conviction: a firmly held belief or opinion.
I never said they were ... but they were part of the character's beliefs ... not abandoning his family, keeping his promises and his pride as a Saiyan, many of whom he abandoned in the past to get power just to overcome Goku

with zamasu he still need to merge for it as vegito, fighting in a team with goku or trunks etcesto affects the above? yes because his words lose value after that
so that really one did not appreciate the message as much as if it was achieved against toppo god simply no exist is such parallelism with majin vegeta as if there was in that battle defeating him alone and with his own power.
besides that zamasu / black does not represent the vegeta of the past as well as toppo god did

and repeating "selling figures" does not change that something has still been done with the character, the transformation, the battle, the message, the interaction, the atmosphere and its development etc.
I compare it with the manga and you know what? I prefer it 1000 times ...
toppo I do not demolish anything ... vegeta I do not demolish anything ... and that combat was really boring and painful for me
you may prefer the one you want ... but it will remain more iconic not only because of the atmosphere that took place ...the transformation is only a representation of it but it is not the only thing .. if not for the developed with its characters ..
Miracles wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:24 pm
@Tai Lung: The Undying is correct. He is simply saying; Vegeta getting power ups because of care for his family, doesn't add anything new, for the growth of Vegeta's character. Those traits already existed, therefore pointless.
and I have clearly said that this is not the only thing in that battle

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Re: SSGSS Evolution is a Disgustingly Bad, Ugly Transformation

Post by Matches Malone » Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:28 am

Tai Lung wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:19 pm
Toppo god gives him something that he never had in the manga and that is called "presence" otherwise it would have been purely pathetic.
No one in the manga had presence. As good as the Black arc and the current Moro arc are, the manga really dropped the ball with the TOP. It was too short and everyone was just getting ringed out left and right without any proper fights, especially Toppo who was just blown off stage by Vegeta powering up. The anime on the other hand made Toppo a massive threat and Vegeta's victory over him felt like a real achievement.

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