SSGSS Evolution is a Disgustingly Bad, Ugly Transformation

[SupremeKai25]

He was about to, they still gave him the limit. And again, the bold is the main issue I keep coming back to. The antagonists shouldn't be weaker or non-threatening to Goku and Vegeta, because why should we care otherwise? It's the Resurrection F problem, and I'm glad the show didn't go that route.

It makes sense how Fusion Zamasu wasn't that strong. Zamasu is a lot weaker than Goku Black which in theory would mean the fusion would result in being weaker, but due to Black's strength, it would be enough to take on one SSGSS. Obviously due to SSGSS's stamina drain (if Toriyama even meant for that to be a thing), they'd have trouble dealing with an enemy that is immortal. This would bring something new to the story, instead of the same old villain being stronger each time scenario it would be that the enemy isn't strong so much in the sense like Son Goku and Vegeta are strong, but strong in the sense that Zamasu's abilities would be extremely hard to get past.

What's the point in bringing something "new" (not really, since they already did that with Future Zamasu anyway earlier in the arc) if the endgame is still going to follow the same narrative about the final villain being stronger than the protagonists? Zamasu becomes an almighty entity who cannot be defeated because he's on another level entirely, and they have to summon Zeno just to not die.

I mean, it's not even a trope or anything that the final villain is stronger than the protagonists.... that's just basic storytelling and there's nothing wrong with following it.

[Miracles]

He was about to, they still gave him the limit. And again, the bold is the main issue I keep coming back to. The antagonists shouldn't be weaker or non-threatening to Goku and Vegeta, because why should we care otherwise? It's the Resurrection F problem, and I'm glad the show didn't go that route.

Using Vegetto against Zamasu was still treated as a last resort, and it makes sense that they would break their no fusing rule against someone else who'd fused- remember, that was the justification they used with Buu. And it also makes sense that the two fusions would be roughly equal, since they were roughly equal unfused as well (with Black and Zamasu having the advantage, which again, they should have because they're the bad guys). At the end of the day, the story was about Trunks and he was the one who got the win. Having Vegetto there simply helped cement Zamasu's strength and the threat he posed. If Toyotaro wanted to throw Vegetto in as well for a meaningless squash match, that's his problem. I couldn't care less about his version.

You've also touched on an issue I have with the Broly movie that's unrelated, which is all of the development you've inferred wasn't addressed in the movie itself. We just see Goku turn up at the end saying Kakarot and act like it means something (other than "hey guys, remember that's what old Broly used to say"). And the scene of Goku convincing Vegeta to fuse also bugged me, because by that point we've seen the two of them "put aside their differences to work together" so many times now. It's not new any more, they've been doing it since Buu. Goku even uses the exact same argument to convince Vegeta, pulling the old "My Bulma" card. Which is is also overdone and indicative of why modern Vegeta is such a stale character, if we want to get back to the original point of this topic.

Goku having to threaten Vegeta about his family in order to fuse is just the stubborn pride of Vegeta. This aspect of his character is what drives him as a Saiyan and will never leave. Which also demonstrates the rivalry aspect between the two. This is just that consistent characterization of a main caster. Also, Goku finally giving his Saiyan blood a bow was due to Broly's strength. It's not a call back to old Broly calling him "Kakaort." lol, Goku is going to fight Beerus again someday and for Broly, who is a mere Saiyan, to be possibly stronger than a god, inspired Goku tremendously. This is why he wants to travel back and forth to fight Broly.

TOEI randomly throwing Vegetto out there was meaningless cause at the end of the day, Goku first overpowered merged Zamas, Which made Zamas look weak anyway. Taking away the belief that he could fight a fusion after getting handled by a single. That Goku scene also undermined Trunks and Vegeta's combined attack against Zamas earlier. Then they have Vegetto come in and do nothing to Zamas, only then to have Trunks, with a random Genki Dama "like" attack, finish Zamas. That's not a last resort measure for fusion which is suppose to be the end all be all.. All that inconsistent storytelling made Vegetto and fused Zamas look weak. Since TOEI can't get their narrative straight on how to climb a battle power ladder correctly.

This is exactly why DB without Toriyama is nonsensical. Toriyama keeps his story consistent with god powers being special, cream of the crop. Due to the heightened elevation of god forms in Toriyama's narrative, enemies that are able to battle it head up;, fused or not, doesn't make them look weak. Unlike TOEI, who has ruined the forms with random power ups and tacky additions, spammed all the time against anyone, which do nothing to show it's importance and uniqueness for the story's sake.

This isn't GT, stop acting like Toriyama isn't involved and Toei are just going rogue with his outlines (which aren't actual stories btw, they were made to be adapted by Toei and Toyo). He approves their decisions, and has stepped in and vetoed or reworked their ideas on occasion. Remember, he was the one who told them to ditch their planned route of giving Jiren a personality and made him a sad bloke with a vague tragic backstory. And you know what, I'll put that alongside making Black and Zamasu weaker than Goku and Vegeta as reasons why his decisions aren't always right.

I think this argument started with me defending Blue Kaioken, and I will say its single appearance in the Trunks arc was used fine. He damned near killed himself using it to break out of Zamasu's grab, and ultimately Zamasu came out of the situation fine (if a little messed up on one side) while Goku was left lying on the ground. And in this house we appreciate the Spirit Sword scene, because it put the development and emotional through-line of the arc with Trunks, where it belongs. Even if it ended in tragedy, it was better to show that Trunks had what it took to protect the future and bring hope to everyone rather than having his dad solve everything.

Also, don't try to argue there was more to that Broly ending than a callback. The whole point of that movie is to call back to popular ideas, its the reason it exists. That's why Broly ceases to be a character once the fighting starts, because everyone is there to watch him go crazy like they remember in the original. And you call Goku bringing up Vegeta's family consistent, I call it old hat. If he's going to need that to convince him every time, then he hasn't actually grown as a character since Buu.

Vegeta's pride is always going to be "old hat" just like Goku's continual lust for more power cause it's something called character consistency. You just got it wrong about Broly too. It's not up for debate how Goku acknowledging his Saiyan heritage as part of his character, by calling himself Kakarot, having nothing to do with the old Z movies, where Broly randomly calls him, Kakarot. It had everything to do with Goku's development in the power department. You are trying to fit a square into a circle with that one.

You can think Goku using KK Blue and Trunks Spirit sword boost against Zamasu was finely used. It still took away from Vegetto's contribution cause it shows he was not needed at all. This is just TOEI randomly inserting things into the story for wow effect. Yeah, Toriyama supervises TOEI but obviously he had something different that would benefit the narration. Zamasu was a weakling merged with Black, it makes sense that Goku and Vegeta could battle him at the same time or one on one in rotation. While keeping their character in tact. TOEI was just all over the place giving everyone their "shine" at the expense of the story. Just cause Toriyama approves something does not mean he agrees with it. We can see how he didn't implement the tacky KK Blue into the Canon movie.

Bottom line, KK Blue and evolution take away from the god powers authority. Adding to them, and spamming it everywhere, against anyone, wears out it's welcome, losing it's uniqueness. We can thank TOEI for that stale and random approach cause they are not careful with the story concepts.

[Koitsukai]

TOEI did a better job with Vegito than Toyo and Toriyama.

The manga has Vegito worlds above Zamasu, having no trouble AT ALL, and defusing BEFORE firing his final attack. You can write Vegito out of the story and everything would be the same. This isn't exagerating, Mr. Satan contributed more vs Buu than Vegito vs Zamasu.
I hate re-writers but when Zamasu started multiplying himself non-stop was the perfect time to enter Vegito Blue (if at all), one Zamasu wasn't even a joke to him, but an army of Zamasu would've been much more interesting to see than the untouchable fusion we ALWAYS get (Buuhan, Janemba, Omega and Broly).

TOEI at least gave Vegito a challenge, there was actually a fight going on, Vegito was fighting seriously which is much more interesting than seeing him again casually fighting someone with a smirk on his face.
Also they prepared the terrain for his not-fatal FKH to be actually useful. Before the fusion, it was stated they needed to hit Zamasu hard enough to break his inner balance or some crap like that, then went Vegito Blue with his strongest attack like Gowasu said they needed to, defused, and after that Trunks with his sword benefit from it and took down a clearly weakened character that moments ago was even with a SSB fusion.

[Aim]

What's the point in bringing something "new" (not really, since they already did that with Future Zamasu anyway earlier in the arc) if the endgame is still going to follow the same narrative about the final villain being stronger than the protagonists? Zamasu becomes an almighty entity who cannot be defeated because he's on another level entirely, and they have to summon Zeno just to not die.

I mean, it's not even a trope or anything that the final villain is stronger than the protagonists.... that's just basic storytelling and there's nothing wrong with following it.

There's nothing wrong with following it but it's the same formula. I could see Toriyama mixing that formula up a bit. It would be interesting to see the villain to be powerful, but not as powerful as two protagonists fighting together, though what makes Zamasu so terrifying is his immortality.

It's a similar concept than the Buu arc.

[SupremeKai25]

What's the point in bringing something "new" (not really, since they already did that with Future Zamasu anyway earlier in the arc) if the endgame is still going to follow the same narrative about the final villain being stronger than the protagonists? Zamasu becomes an almighty entity who cannot be defeated because he's on another level entirely, and they have to summon Zeno just to not die.

I mean, it's not even a trope or anything that the final villain is stronger than the protagonists.... that's just basic storytelling and there's nothing wrong with following it.

There's nothing wrong with following it but it's the same formula. I could see Toriyama mixing that formula up a bit. It would be interesting to see the villain to be powerful, but not as powerful as two protagonists combined, though what makes Zamasu so terrifying is his immortality.

It's a similar concept than the Buu arc.

Because it's a formula that always works. In any story, the final villain is always stronger than the protagonists. It would just be anticlimactic if that wasn't the case, and that's why Toriyama ultimately changed his mind about Fused Zamasu being weaker than Goku and Vegeta. Buu arc was the same thing. Kid Buu was stronger than Goku and Vegeta, they took turns fighting him just to buy time for the Spirit Bomb, and even then Buu was completely stomping them. Maybe if Goku was 100% power in SS3 he could have defeated him, but he was handicapped.

I also don't understand why Fused Zamasu should be weak just because Future Zamasu wasn't SSB level. Fusion does not add the powers of the fusées, it multiplies them, increasing their strength tens of times. It wouldn't make sense if Fused Zamasu was not much stronger than Black, because Fused Zamasu is not Black + Zamasu (in which case the difference of power wouldn't be very considerable), but Black x Zamasu. So I don't understand the argument that is often used here about Fused Zamasu not being much stronger because Future Zamasu was weak.

[emperior]

What's the point in bringing something "new" (not really, since they already did that with Future Zamasu anyway earlier in the arc) if the endgame is still going to follow the same narrative about the final villain being stronger than the protagonists? Zamasu becomes an almighty entity who cannot be defeated because he's on another level entirely, and they have to summon Zeno just to not die.

I mean, it's not even a trope or anything that the final villain is stronger than the protagonists.... that's just basic storytelling and there's nothing wrong with following it.

There's nothing wrong with following it but it's the same formula. I could see Toriyama mixing that formula up a bit. It would be interesting to see the villain to be powerful, but not as powerful as two protagonists combined, though what makes Zamasu so terrifying is his immortality.

It's a similar concept than the Buu arc.

Because it's a formula that always works. In any story, the final villain is always stronger than the protagonists. It would just be anticlimactic if that wasn't the case, and that's why Toriyama ultimately changed his mind about Fused Zamasu being weaker than Goku and Vegeta. Buu arc was the same thing. Kid Buu was stronger than Goku and Vegeta, they took turns fighting him just to buy time for the Spirit Bomb, and even then Buu was completely stomping them.

I also don't understand why Fused Zamasu should be weak just because Future Zamasu wasn't SSB level. Fusion does not add the powers of the fusées, it multiplies them, increasing their strength tens of times. It wouldn't make sense if Fused Zamasu was not much stronger than Black, because Fused Zamasu is not Black + Zamasu (in which case the difference of power wouldn't be very considerable), but Black x Zamasu. So I don't understand the argument that is often used here about Fused Zamasu not being much stronger because Future Zamasu was weak.

Nowhere was it ever stated that fusion multiplied the power of both fusees. That would make it extremely broken... like, Kaioken x20 is already broken on top of Super Saiyan Blue and makes the gap between Goku/Vegeta and Beerus way too wide. Imagine if Goku’s power was multiplied by millions, maybe billions of times just by fusing with Vegeta and that is still only enough for Shin to say “maybe they have already surpassed Beerus”. It would literally mean both Goku and Vegeta were ants compared to Beerus, and that shouldn’t be the case.

In fact, if potara was a multiplication of the two powers then Goku would benefit from fusing with Mr Satan as he should be at least around 5 in terms of power level. Instead, he actually wondered if that would have weakened him.
So it’s more plausible that potara fusion is the average of both fusees power multiplied by some “n” number depending on various factors (in the case of Goku and Vegeta it worked better because of their rivalry).

Either way, if Toriyama said “Blue is enough for Merged Zamasu” then that should have been it. He’s the author and he is the one who should decide how his concepts work.

[SupremeKai25]

There's nothing wrong with following it but it's the same formula. I could see Toriyama mixing that formula up a bit. It would be interesting to see the villain to be powerful, but not as powerful as two protagonists combined, though what makes Zamasu so terrifying is his immortality.

It's a similar concept than the Buu arc.

Because it's a formula that always works. In any story, the final villain is always stronger than the protagonists. It would just be anticlimactic if that wasn't the case, and that's why Toriyama ultimately changed his mind about Fused Zamasu being weaker than Goku and Vegeta. Buu arc was the same thing. Kid Buu was stronger than Goku and Vegeta, they took turns fighting him just to buy time for the Spirit Bomb, and even then Buu was completely stomping them.

I also don't understand why Fused Zamasu should be weak just because Future Zamasu wasn't SSB level. Fusion does not add the powers of the fusées, it multiplies them, increasing their strength tens of times. It wouldn't make sense if Fused Zamasu was not much stronger than Black, because Fused Zamasu is not Black + Zamasu (in which case the difference of power wouldn't be very considerable), but Black x Zamasu. So I don't understand the argument that is often used here about Fused Zamasu not being much stronger because Future Zamasu was weak.

Nowhere was it ever stated that fusion multiplied the power of both fusees. That would make it extremely broken... like, Kaioken x20 is already broken on top of Super Saiyan Blue and makes the gap between Goku/Vegeta and Beerus way too wide. Imagine if Goku’s power was multiplied by millions, maybe billions of times just by fusing with Vegeta and that is still only enough for Shin to say “maybe they have already surpassed Beerus”. It would literally mean both Goku and Vegeta were ants compared to Beerus, and that shouldn’t be the case.

In fact, if potara was a multiplication of the two powers then Goku would benefit from fusing with Mr Satan as he should be at least around 5 in terms of power level. Instead, he actually wondered if that would have weakened him.
So it’s more plausible that potara fusion is the average of both fusees power multiplied by some “n” number depending on various factors (in the case of Goku and Vegeta it worked better because of their rivalry).

Either way, if Toriyama said “Blue is enough for Merged Zamasu” then that should have been it. He’s the author and he is the one who should decide how his concepts work.

Vados mentions how Kefla's power increased tens of times, so it must be a considerable power increase, their powers must be multiplied (I dont know which powers are multiplied though, if it's their base powers or their full power). Also Beerus mentions in the ToP how the Androids would be the best candidates for fusion since they are twins, so since Black and Zamasu are the same person, then they should make for a very suitable fusion. That number "n" refers to various factors around the fusion, and they should work in Zamasu's favor as per Beerus' statement.

[Aim]

Because it's a formula that always works. In any story, the final villain is always stronger than the protagonists. It would just be anticlimactic if that wasn't the case, and that's why Toriyama ultimately changed his mind about Fused Zamasu being weaker than Goku and Vegeta. Buu arc was the same thing. Kid Buu was stronger than Goku and Vegeta, they took turns fighting him just to buy time for the Spirit Bomb, and even then Buu was completely stomping them. Maybe if Goku was 100% power in SS3 he could have defeated him, but he was handicapped.

It's a formula that gets old, you can only go so far with making villains stronger and stronger. I disagree, I don't think it would be anticlimactic, we're not all hyperactive kids wanting big sparkling battles with no lore incorporated into the story. Toriyama never changed his mind, where are you getting that? He didn't bother going against what Toyotaro and Toei wanted to do.

Pure Buu was weaker than his previous form(s).

I also don't understand why Fused Zamasu should be weak just because Future Zamasu wasn't SSB level. Fusion does not add the powers of the fusées, it multiplies them, increasing their strength tens of times. It wouldn't make sense if Fused Zamasu was not much stronger than Black, because Fused Zamasu is not Black + Zamasu (in which case the difference of power wouldn't be very considerable), but Black x Zamasu. So I don't understand the argument that is often used here about Fused Zamasu not being much stronger because Future Zamasu was weak.

You don't understand why Fusion Zamasu should be weaker? Do you have any idea why Goku never fused with Mr. Satan? It doesn't matter whether fusion multiples the powers and increases them tens of times, Zamasu is so far below Black, Son, Vegeta and the others that it makes sense that Fusion Zamasu wouldn't be as strong as Toei and Toyotaro made him out to be.

Fusion Zamasu wouldn't technically be 'weak', he just wouldn't be as strong as two SSGSS's, but even then he'd be a lot of trouble since he's immortal and cannot be killed. People were probably meant to believe Black/Zamasu made a mistake using fusion due to the power difference, but then realises it's still futile for our protagonists because he's still immortal and tiring out Son and Vegeta.

Either way, if Toriyama said “Blue is enough for Merged Zamasu” then that should have been it. He’s the author and he is the one who should decide how his concepts work.

I find it so funny how people think they know what's best and what fits for Dragon Ball, coming up with head canon without sources. This, is the western Dragon Ball community.

Toriyama's version of Super would be in no doubt in my mind way better than Toyotaro and Toei's Super.

[SupremeKai25]

It's a formula that gets old, you can only go so far with making villains stronger and stronger. I disagree, I don't think it would be anticlimactic, we're not all hyperactive kids wanting big sparkling battles with no lore incorporated into the story. Toriyama never changed his mind, where are you getting that? He didn't bother going against what Toyotaro and Toei wanted to do.

Pure Buu was weaker than his previous form(s).

Wanting the final villain of the arc, a fusion that was foreshadowed for 17 episodes, to be strong is being an "hyperactive kid"? And yes Toriyama ultimately changed his mind, that's why he let both Toei and Toyotaro write Fused Zamasu as a massive threat, as it should be.

You don't understand why Fusion Zamasu should be weaker? Do you have any idea why Goku never fused with Mr. Satan? It doesn't matter whether fusion multiples the powers and increases them tens of times, Zamasu is so far below Black, Son, Vegeta and the others that it makes sense that Fusion Zamasu wouldn't be as strong as Toei and Toyotaro made him out to be.

There is no way that the gap between Black and Zamasu would be equal to the gap between Goku and Mr. Satan. Also Zamasu wasn't that much below the others. Even if he wasn't SSB level, he was able to not get blown up every time he fought a SSB opponent, which means he wasn't that far below them. Otherwise even with just one kick Goku or Vegeta would be able to tear him apart.

Fusion Zamasu wouldn't technically be 'weak', he just wouldn't be as strong as two SSGSS's, but even then he'd be a lot of trouble since he's immortal and cannot be killed. People were probably meant to believe Black/Zamasu made a mistake using fusion due to the power difference, but then realises it's still futile for our protagonists because he's still immortal and tiring out Son and Vegeta.

People still believed it. In fact in both the anime and manga Fused Zamasu ultimate runs into a problem. In the anime half of his body cannot be regenerated, in the manga Black and Zamasu become fused at a cellular level and remain stuck in the fusion after the time ran out.

I find it so funny how people think they know what's best and what fits for Dragon Ball, coming up with head canon without sources. This, is the western Dragon Ball community.

Toriyama's version of Super would be in no doubt in my mind way better than Toyotaro and Toei's Super.

The irony.

[emperior]

Toriyama's version of Super would be in no doubt in my mind way better than Toyotaro and Toei's Super.

Yeah, I too have no doubt about this. Which is why I wished Toriyama could be way more hands on with Super than he is.

He will never draw the manga all by himself, that much is clear, but it would be awesome if he could do some rough boards, with dialogue of course, for the manga. While Toyotaro would fill in the rest, and then Toei would animate it.
And of course it would be nice if he could write much more detailed outlines, or a movie-like script to be adapted as if it were an outline.

[Lord Beerus]

Toriyama's version of Super would be in no doubt in my mind way better than Toyotaro and Toei's Super.

Yeah, I too have no doubt about this. Which is why I wished Toriyama could be way more hands on with Super than he is.

He will never draw the manga all by himself, that much is clear, but it would be awesome if he could do some rough boards, with dialogue of course, for the manga. While Toyotaro would fill in the rest, and then Toei would animate it.
And of course it would be nice if he could write much more detailed outlines, or a movie-like script to be adapted as if it were an outline.

Hmm.

See, I'm not entirely sold on the idea that if Toriyama was left to he devices would write the best version of Super. Toriyama is so freaking hit-and-miss these days. For every Jaco The Galactic Patrolman he writes and draws, he also produces Dragon Ball Minus and Resurrection F.

I still hold the opinion that out of all the modern Dragon Ball material, Battle Of Gods is the best written by a country mile. And that Toei doing a good chunk of the heavy lifting with Toriyama supervising everything and making creative changes as he saw fit.

Toriyama can still draw Dragon Ball very well on a consistent basis. But write Dragon Ball very well on a consistently basis? That has yet to be seen, and that what's scares me the most.

[emperior]

Toriyama's version of Super would be in no doubt in my mind way better than Toyotaro and Toei's Super.

Yeah, I too have no doubt about this. Which is why I wished Toriyama could be way more hands on with Super than he is.

He will never draw the manga all by himself, that much is clear, but it would be awesome if he could do some rough boards, with dialogue of course, for the manga. While Toyotaro would fill in the rest, and then Toei would animate it.
And of course it would be nice if he could write much more detailed outlines, or a movie-like script to be adapted as if it were an outline.

Hmm.

See, I'm not entirely sold on the idea that if Toriyama was left to he devices would write the best version of Super. Toriyama is so freaking hit-and-miss these days. For every Jaco The Galactic Patrolman he writes and draws, he also produces Dragon Ball Minus and Resurrection F.

I still hold the opinion that out of all the modern Dragon Ball material, Battle Of Gods is the best written by a country mile. And that Toei doing a good chunk of the heavy lifting with Toriyama supervising everything and making creative changes as he saw fit.

Toriyama can still draw Dragon Ball very well on a consistent basis. But write Dragon Ball very well on a consistently basis? That has yet to be seen, and that what's scares me the most.

I would leave Minus out, as writing a story in the span of a single chapter was a bad idea in the first place.

Drawing a manga by himself, week by week (or even month by month) would be a different thing. First of all, his panelling and art has always been incredibly good so it would be of higher quality than Toyotaro’s manga.
Second, as the author he could surely bend the story more on a week by week basis. While the Super setup of writing everything in advance may not be the most suitable for Toriyama’s writing ways.

Of course we can’t really know what a 100% Toriyama-made DBS could be, but I would say it’s a fair bet to believe it would have been better than the two versions we got.

[Koitsukai]

Toriyama's version of Super would be in no doubt in my mind way better than Toyotaro and Toei's Super.

Yeah, I too have no doubt about this. Which is why I wished Toriyama could be way more hands on with Super than he is.

He will never draw the manga all by himself, that much is clear, but it would be awesome if he could do some rough boards, with dialogue of course, for the manga. While Toyotaro would fill in the rest, and then Toei would animate it.
And of course it would be nice if he could write much more detailed outlines, or a movie-like script to be adapted as if it were an outline.

Hmm.

See, I'm not entirely sold on the idea that if Toriyama was left to he devices would write the best version of Super. Toriyama is so freaking hit-and-miss these days. For every Jaco The Galactic Patrolman he writes and draws, he also produces Dragon Ball Minus and Resurrection F.

I still hold the opinion that out of all the modern Dragon Ball material, Battle Of Gods is the best written by a country mile. And that Toei doing a good chunk of the heavy lifting with Toriyama supervising everything and making creative changes as he saw fit.

Toriyama can still draw Dragon Ball very well on a consistent basis. But write Dragon Ball very well on a consistently basis? That has yet to be seen, and that what's scares me the most.

I agree here. FT arc has the most awful anticlimatic ending I could ever hope for, and I think I'm not alone on this one. The deus ex machina that closed the arc and made the past 20 episodes/chapters meaningless, the journey of Trunks, the reader's investment, everything that was crapped all over came from him. Like you said, RoF came from him too.

Of course, his art, humor, panelling and fighting choreography dwarfs Toyble and anything Toei could ever produce (aside of DBS 130-131), but already in the Buu arc things were starting to get out of hand with so much stuff that could be written out but was there because it looked cool or made people look cool.

[Aim]

Wanting the final villain of the arc, a fusion that was foreshadowed for 17 episodes, to be strong is being an "hyperactive kid"? And yes Toriyama ultimately changed his mind, that's why he let both Toei and Toyotaro write Fused Zamasu as a massive threat, as it should be.

No, Toriyama didn't change his mind. With that logic you're saying Toriyama decided to add SSGSS Evolution and SSGSS Kaioken into his story. Fused Zamasu should have been a massive threat based on different variables, not just being 'strong'.

There is no way that the gap between Black and Zamasu would be equal to the gap between Goku and Mr. Satan. Also Zamasu wasn't that much below the others. Even if he wasn't SSB level, he was able to not get blown up every time he fought a SSB opponent, which means he wasn't that far below them. Otherwise even with just one kick Goku or Vegeta would be able to tear him apart.

Super is very inconsistent, especially Toei's version. The point at what Goku and the others were at is way above Zamasu, the only reason why Zamasu had a large advantage to keep up was because of his immortality.

People still believed it. In fact in both the anime and manga Fused Zamasu ultimate runs into a problem. In the anime half of his body cannot be regenerated, in the manga Black and Zamasu become fused at a cellular level and remain stuck in the fusion after the time ran out.

Fusion Zamasu was still way too powerful for someone who was meant to be struggling to 'regenerate'. Then all of a sudden Trunks kills him, how? Toei's terrible plot. The manga ending was not that great either in my opinion.

The irony.

I know right, I'm saying that the author most likely knows what's best for his story, on the other hand you're saying a corporate business that obviously doesn't care enough knows whats best for his story. Seriously, where's the irony? Besides you trying to suggest that it's ironic?

[Lord Beerus]

I would leave Minus out, as writing a story in the span of a single chapter was a bad idea in the first place.

Drawing a manga by himself, week by week (or even month by month) would be a different thing. First of all, his panelling and art has always been incredibly good so it would be of higher quality than Toyotaro’s manga.
Second, as the author he could surely bend the story more on a week by week basis. While the Super setup of writing everything in advance may not be the most suitable for Toriyama’s writing ways.

Of course we can’t really know what a 100% Toriyama-made DBS could be, but I would say it’s a fair bet to believe it would have been better than the two versions we got.

I'm not giving Toriyama a pass for Minus. He wanted to give a backstory, and you can damn I will judge him for what he intended to do.

I never doubted Toriyama's artistic abilities. His artstyle, panelling, and fight choreography is still top notch.

It's just some of his plot points in Super have been... questionable to, say the very least. I think more than anything Toriyama needs an adviser.

TOEI is too random with Toriyama's story. Having Goku stack KK, a body straining technique to an already power draining form on top of Blue is plot conflicting. They even did this with SSJ in the Heaven's tournament against Pikkon with Goku. Yet we never see Toriyama add it in the main intrigue. At least Toyotaro kept Toriyama in mind when he pointed out the foolishness of damaging the body with adding KK with Blue in the manga's plot against Jiren.

TOEI's Vegetto was a travesty. He was struggling with a fusion, made with weaker components in Zamas. It made no sense at all. This is exactly why Toriyama's way of writing keeps in line with heart of DB. Goku and Vegeta were suppose to be able to handle Zamas separately. With Zamas immortality being a factor in survival. It just makes story sense.

This is why the movies BoG, RoF and Broly are more quality than anything TOEI andToyotaro has produced.

I may be in the minority, but I actually liked that Kiaoken making a return. It's always bugged me how Goku essentially mastered that technique during the Freeza arc and never bothered using it again when it would be so useful. The justification of Goku using Kiaoken with SSJB was a bit strange, but to Toei's credit, it fucked up Goku's body after he used it the first time, so it's no as if there weren't any consequences. And it took dozens of episodes before Goku could use it in combat more frequently.

Vegetto returning in general was a bad idea. I blame Toyotaro for this. Goku and Vegeta fusing lead to nothing changing in the plot and because of Toyotaro convincing Toriyama to write Vegetto in the plot outline, Toriyama the decided the change of the condition of the Potara to give it a one hour time limit. I could hardly give a shit about how Vegetto appeared in the fight, because it didn't matter in the end.

Battle Of Gods is awesome, but a good chunk of that praise should go to Toei more than Toriyama. That's not say Toriyama wasn't an important factor in adding the quality of the final product (i.e. changing the design of Super Saiyan God and Beerus and making the film more lighthearted and nostalgic), but the script -- which is the greatest attribute of the film by far -- was still mostly Toei.

Resurrection F is a bad Dragon Ball film. Terrible script, that wasn't helped at all by the mediocre and sterile direction of a way past his prime Yamamuro, dragged that film into the abyss.

DBS Broly had an average and basic script that was immensely elevated by the hard work of the production team. The director, storyboard artists and key animators brought their "A" game and took that movie from a 5 to a 9.

[Miracles]

TOEI is too random with Toriyama's story. Having Goku stack KK, a body straining technique to an already power draining form on top of Blue is plot conflicting. They even did this with SSJ in the Heaven's tournament against Pikkon with Goku. Yet we never see Toriyama add it in the main intrigue. At least Toyotaro kept Toriyama in mind when he pointed out the foolishness of damaging the body with adding KK with Blue in the manga's plot against Jiren.

TOEI's Vegetto was a travesty. He was struggling with a fusion, made with weaker components in Zamas. It made no sense at all. This is exactly why Toriyama's way of writing keeps in line with heart of DB. Goku and Vegeta were suppose to be able to handle Zamas separately. With Zamas immortality being a factor in survival. It just makes story sense.

This is why the movies BoG, RoF and Broly are more quality than anything TOEI andToyotaro has produced.

I may be in the minority, but I actually liked that Kiaoken making a return. It's always bugged me how Goku essentially mastered that technique during the Freeza arc and never bothered using it again when it would be so useful. The justification of Goku using Kiaoken with SSJB was a bit strange, but to Toei's credit, it fucked up Goku's body after he used it the first time, so it's no as if there weren't any consequences. And it took dozens of episodes before Goku could use it in combat more frequently.

Vegetto returning in general was a bad idea. I blame Toyotaro for this. Goku and Vegeta fusing lead to nothing changing in the plot and because of Toyotaro convincing Toriyama to write Vegetto in the plot outline, Toriyama the decided the change of the condition of the Potara to give it a one hour time limit. I could hardly give a shit about how Vegetto appeared in the fight, because it didn't matter in the end.

Battle Of Gods is awesome, but a good chunk of that praise should go to Toei more than Toriyama. That's not say Toriyama wasn't an important factor in adding the quality of the final product (i.e. changing the design of Super Saiyan God and Beerus and making the film more lighthearted and nostalgic), but the script -- which is the greatest attribute of the film by far -- was still mostly Toei.

Resurrection F is a bad Dragon Ball film. Terrible script, that wasn't helped at all by the mediocre and sterile direction of a way past his prime Yamamuro, dragged that film into the abyss.

DBS Broly had an average and basic script that was immensely elevated by the hard work of the production team. The director, storyboard artists and key animators brought their "A" game and took that movie from a 5 to a 9.

I appreciated the story of DBS Broly. It was quick and straight to the point without any needless padding on flashbacks or superfluous dialogue. Which is classic Toriyama. Naturally the animation was top class and the anime team deserves credit for that but nods to Toriyama for the quick and effective plot.

The RoF film, I didn't like either. However, the movie was way better than TOEI's adaptation, now that was just bad in terms of animation. Battle of Gods was good. Also, there are interviews here on Kanzenshuu where Toriyama said he ended up writing almost everything. He even took TOEI's script and rewrote it cause he felt the theme wasn't like the world of Dragonball. Toriyama gets the credit for that story.

I agree with you on Vegetto's role in TOEI's game. It was pretty vain. I'm not surprised you like KK Blue. I have family and friends that think it's awesome too. Usually only the hardcore guys don't like it, lol.

[The Undying]

I'm not big on people spreading misinformation.

Toei's Battle of Gods draft was about an evil lizard who took over people's minds and was responsible for making the Saiyans evil. Toriyama didn't just completely rework the story concept and tone, he flat-out gave Watanabe an outline "that was already finished up like a script" - 60 minutes of material, to be exact, later given a few additions by Watanabe that were then sometimes further re-adjusted by Toriyama (e.g. the group of thieves becoming the Pilaf gang). All of this information is available on Kanzenshuu's main site, so there's no excuses for twisting context.

The Battle of Gods script was predominantly Toriyama, not Toei. Watanabe's plans for the film were so barely recognizable after Toriyama's involvement that they might as well have been a different product altogether, not to mention his role as a scriptwriter mainly just came down to filling in the gaps in Toriyama's mostly already-finished script.

Without Toriyama, we'd have ended up with an edgy derivative GT 2.0 shitshow about people randomly getting possessed. In other words, a typical Toei affair. Yeah... no, I'm good.

[BagetaSama]

I don't see how it's minor resemblance to Grade 2 messes with the lore at all. Grade 2 is stronger and faster than Grade 4, but is more draining than Grade 4, in this case, SSBE, assuming it is "power stressed" in the same way(it's never stated, this is mostly speculation), it would be like SSBKK in that it is sacrifices stamina in favor of power. This, if anything does a good job of emulating what Goku is doing with SSBKKx20. The idea that "big muscles are too slow!" doesn't even come into play, given that at absolute most the muscle mass emulates Grade 2(probably less), not Grade 3. Therefore, there should be no loss in speed.

[emperior]

I'm not giving Toriyama a pass for Minus. He wanted to give a backstory, and you can damn I will judge him for what he intended to do.

It’s not about giving Toriyama a pass, it’s about not judging his potential to output good DB stories in manga format nowadays, based on one “bad” chapter.
And I wouldn’t judge either based on his outlines, because if he were to draw the manga I bet the stories would have been drastically different.

I don’t even mind Minus, but I can see why people hate it especially when Bardock’s TV special exists and is much better than it.

[Aim]

I don't see how it's minor resemblance to Grade 2 messes with the lore at all. Grade 2 is stronger and faster than Grade 4, but is more draining than Grade 4, in this case, SSBE, assuming it is "power stressed" in the same way(it's never stated, this is mostly speculation), it would be like SSBKK in that it is sacrifices stamina in favor of power. This, if anything does a good job of emulating what Goku is doing with SSBKKx20. The idea that "big muscles are too slow!" doesn't even come into play, given that at absolute most the muscle mass emulates Grade 2(probably less), not Grade 3. Therefore, there should be no loss in speed.

“Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more.” - Akira Toriyama Twel-Boo Mysteries

It wouldn’t be far fetched to assume that Toriyama meant the grades between Super Saiyan 1 and 2. Grade 2 and 3 are extremely flawed compared to 2 and 3.

There’s a reason why Super Saiyan was going to be mostly used in its first state rather than the others.