Super Saiyan Rosé - The Anime's interpretation (Compared to the Manga's)

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Super Saiyan Rosé - The Anime's interpretation (Compared to the Manga's)

Post by Aim » Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:21 am

There seems to be still be a lot of debate and arguing regarding this form, and to this day most people can agree that the anime and manga are different continuities, yet when it comes to this concept, all of a sudden the anime and manga become one of the same.
♫ Let's get started! ♫


If you follow Terez you'll see she edited this VJump page to match Herms' translations.
'A Goku Black version of Super Saiyan', this suggests that this could either be his literal version of regular Super Saiyan, or a unique different Super Saiyan. Now one person argued that 'Super Saiyan' is an umbrella term used for most Super Saiyan forms in Super, however I beg to differ on this one.

SSGSS has as far as I know, been insinuated to as a 'God form', or the umbrella term being 'Super Saiyan God', I haven't gone back and watched passed the Future Trunks Arc, so there's a possibility SSGSS may have been referred to as 'Super Saiyan' just once, but I do not recall this happening. Here are some screenshots of numerous times characters referred to SSGSS as 'Super Saiyan God';
Another argument is that Super Saiyan 2 was referred to as 'Super Saiyan', but this isn't all that true, the only time Super Saiyan 2 was referred to as 'Super Saiyan' is when it probably wasn't "clear" as to whether it was actually Super Saiyan 2 or not. When they want to emphasize a specific form, they will refer to it by it's name, otherwise I have a suspicion that there were times where Super Saiyan 2 was used but it wasn't the intention as you can see by the scripts. I think this is the case because they probably didn't have a design or Super Saiyan 2 Trunks so they decided to keep the regular hair styles but put emphasis on that it was still SSJ2 in the dialogue.
The next episode Goku goes into Super Saiyan 2 once again when he fights Goku Black, in which he has the correct design. Goku Black comments on him going Super Saiyan, but doesn't mention it to be the next level up from Super Saiyan, which Black would probably most likely know about.
Now one could say that it's just the case of another umbrella term, but I just find that very strange that exactly after it was referred to as Super Saiyan 2 in the previous episode, all of a sudden it's being referred to as just 'Super Saiyan'.

More proof for Goku Black actually turning into a form that isn't quite SSGSS is that he imprinted on Goku while Goku was in Super Saiyan(2?):
Goku Black even starts to what I assume to be him becoming more like Goku by learning to use his power. It's very similar to the opening of the show.
Take what you want from those images.

There is a piece of evidence that could be the leading factor to Super Saiyan Rosé being SSGSS in the anime instead of Super Saiyan (or another version of Super Saiyan), Future Trunks comments that it looks like Goku Black has seen Super Saiyan Blue before.
However, it is possible that the Zamasu that took Goku's body had seen Blue already on God Tube. As Goku Black reveals that he was defeated by the Goku of his timeline:
The manga and the anime are different continuities with slightly different logic or lore, yet people still want to use the manga as the source explanation for Goku Black's unique form, even though it's been implied to be his own Super Saiyan version form that's unique to him. If you want to still go by quotes on the series, then it's even stated that Goku Black turned into a "Super Saiyan", not "Super Saiyan God", even though his form still has god ki, but the characters acknowledge it to be different.
Now it is true that in Toriyama's notes he stated this:
Goku Black can go Super Saiyan and a Super Saiyan of a slightly different hair color than Goku. This is extremely vague information, my own theory is that Toei thought Toriyama meant that Goku Black turned into a literal Super Saiyan with a different hair color.

We did get a proper explanation from Toyotaro for Goku Black's form in the manga.
Again, the anime and manga are separate, and cannot and should not be used to explain each others story points. You can argue Toyotaro gets more information than Toei and his story line is a lot closer to the original vision, which in my mind is true, but it doesn't change the fact Toei's adaptation is different and has basically established that.

I used to think this didn't make any sense, but in a way it does the more I think about it. Toriyama stated that he doesn't think Goku would still use Super Saiyan 2 & 3, instead he'd master his Super Saiyan form to surpass those successors. This is my own head canon so take it with a pinch of salt; Zamasu was already a fighting prodigy, learning more about Goku's body as he used it.
Goku Black in my opinion probably knew of the other Super Saiyan forms, and instead decided to master Goku's power like he stated, then reach his own 'perfect' and 'beautiful' version of Super Saiyan. What backs this up is Black's showing no strain in this form, and is significantly more powerful, he really has mastered Goku's power. (Again this is my own head canon).

I certainly do wish we saw Toriyama's version, I'd love to know whether it was more like Toei's version, or Toyotaro's version, or perhaps he'd surprise us with something different!

Anyhow, that's it, if anyone has any counter arguments, any sources proving this to be wrong, please share them. I've searched high and low for sources stating that Goku Black's Rosé form to be anything other than a "Goku Black version of Super Saiyan"
Last edited by Aim on Wed Mar 25, 2020 8:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Super Saiyan Rosé - The Anime's interpretation (Compared to the Manga's)

Post by dbs fanboy » Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:33 am

I will never understand how people argue about this, ssblue is literally just super saiyan but with "god ki", Goku Black already has god ki because he already is a god, super saiyan Rosé is just Black's super saiyan, that's it.
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Re: Super Saiyan Rosé - The Anime's interpretation (Compared to the Manga's)

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:13 pm

The manga explanation doesn't negate the anime one at all. Rosé is his Super Saiyan form because it's his first transformation from Base form. At the same time, it's also his version of SSB; by virtue of being a Kai, Black's Base form is his SSG form. So when he turns Rosé, he's going Super Saiyan when in SSG form, aka it's as if he were going Blue.
dbs fanboy wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:33 am
I will never understand how people argue about this, ssblue is literally just super saiyan but with "god ki", Goku Black already has god ki because he already is a god, super saiyan Rosé is just Black's super saiyan, that's it.
Pretty much this.
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Re: Super Saiyan Rosé - The Anime's interpretation (Compared to the Manga's)

Post by ankokudaishogun » Mon Mar 23, 2020 6:24 pm

It's quite simple:

Blue is SS+God.
God is fundamentally "Saiyan with God Ki"

So Blue="a Saiyan with God Ki going Super Saiyan".

Once Black perfected his mastery of Goku's Body, he could use his God Ki at full power.
Stacking it with Super Saiyan resulted into "a Saiyan with God Ki going Super Saiyan". Aka SSGSS.
His hair were of a different color because either the influence of his soul(as stated in the manga) or because he somehow he willed them that color(which was suggested in the anime IIRC)

The "real" difference is, if anything, in Black's BASE state.

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Re: Super Saiyan Rosé - The Anime's interpretation (Compared to the Manga's)

Post by Aim » Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:11 am

dbs fanboy wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:33 am
I will never understand how people argue about this, ssblue is literally just super saiyan but with "god ki", Goku Black already has god ki because he already is a god, super saiyan Rosé is just Black's super saiyan, that's it.
List your sources, Super Saiyan God isn't just a Saiyan with god ki, the transformation as a whole is a Super Saiyan form, if it just granted god ki it wouldn't have granted the user as much power as it did.

SSGSS is a Super Saiyan with the 'power of Super Saiyan God', not just god ki.

How can Black have god ki in his base if Kuririn and the others were still able to sense his ki? Being a god and having the power of Super Saiyan God seem to be obviously different.
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:13 pm
The manga explanation doesn't negate the anime one at all. Rosé is his Super Saiyan form because it's his first transformation from Base form. At the same time, it's also his version of SSB; by virtue of being a Kai, Black's Base form is his SSG form. So when he turns Rosé, he's going Super Saiyan when in SSG form, aka it's as if he were going Blue.

Pretty much this.
Yes. It. Does. You can't use the manga and anime lore to explain one or the other. In the anime Goku loses his shit more than twice in Ultra Instinct, which negates the whole concept of Ultra Instinct, where in the manga Goku remains calm throughout.

There is a guide that states it to be a "Goku Black version of Super Saiyan", you're not bringing any evidence to how or why you're right in saying it's SSGSS in the anime when it was never stated to be that.
ankokudaishogun wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 6:24 pm
It's quite simple:

Blue is SS+God.
God is fundamentally "Saiyan with God Ki"

So Blue="a Saiyan with God Ki going Super Saiyan".

Once Black perfected his mastery of Goku's Body, he could use his God Ki at full power.
Stacking it with Super Saiyan resulted into "a Saiyan with God Ki going Super Saiyan". Aka SSGSS.
His hair were of a different color because either the influence of his soul(as stated in the manga) or because he somehow he willed them that color(which was suggested in the anime IIRC)

The "real" difference is, if anything, in Black's BASE state.
Blue is Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God. Super Saiyan God isn't just 'god ki', if I'm wrong, link me a source because I haven't found anything that states Super Saiyan God is only god ki.

Even if you want to say Goku Black is already using god ki in base, then his hair should be red according to all you peoples' logic.

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Re: Super Saiyan Rosé - The Anime's interpretation (Compared to the Manga's)

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:38 am

Aim wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:11 am

Yes. It. Does. You can't use the manga and anime lore to explain one or the other. In the anime Goku loses his shit more than twice in Ultra Instinct, which negates the whole concept of Ultra Instinct, where in the manga Goku remains calm throughout.

There is a guide that states it to be a "Goku Black version of Super Saiyan", you're not bringing any evidence to how or why you're right in saying it's SSGSS in the anime when it was never stated to be that.
Exceptions exist. If SSGSS is SSG going Super Saiyan, then Rosé is also SSGSS, because it's Black (who is already similar to SSG by virtue of being a God-Saiyan hybrid) going Super Saiyan (Rosé). Plus Beerus and Whis felt that Zamasu's Ki was very similar to Black, and Zamasu had God ki.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying there's a way to conciliate these two versions by using some speculation/headcanon.
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Re: Super Saiyan Rosé - The Anime's interpretation (Compared to the Manga's)

Post by Aim » Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:17 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:38 am
Exceptions exist. If SSGSS is SSG going Super Saiyan, then Rosé is also SSGSS, because it's Black (who is already similar to SSG by virtue of being a God-Saiyan hybrid) going Super Saiyan (Rosé). Plus Beerus and Whis felt that Zamasu's Ki was very similar to Black, and Zamasu had God ki.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying there's a way to conciliate these two versions by using some speculation/headcanon.
Ok. I get that. However, let's look at this again, it's been referred to as Super Saiyan even when SSGSS has been referred to as Super Saiyan God, it's been stated by an official guide it's a Goku Black version of Super Saiyan, those without god ki could still sense Black's ki in base, meaning either he didn't have god ki in that body, or the fact his Super Saiyan form turned out to be pink instead is due to him actually having the soul of a god. Black and Zamasu's ki weren't similar enough to be considered the same people, Black's ki was described as intensely evil.

Even if we do say Black is a god in base, that's not Super Saiyan God, Super Saiyan God is a transformation, not just god ki.
But even then, Super Saiyan Rosé would still be Goku Black's own godly Super Saiyan that isn't quite SSGSS, it's seems to be more like his own powerful version of Super Saiyan that has an appearance like SSGSS, but it doesn't mean it's exactly his equivalent (in the anime at least).

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Re: Super Saiyan Rosé - The Anime's interpretation (Compared to the Manga's)

Post by dbs fanboy » Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:10 am

Aim wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:11 am
dbs fanboy wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:33 am
I will never understand how people argue about this, ssblue is literally just super saiyan but with "god ki", Goku Black already has god ki because he already is a god, super saiyan Rosé is just Black's super saiyan, that's it.
List your sources, Super Saiyan God isn't just a Saiyan with god ki, the transformation as a whole is a Super Saiyan form, if it just granted god ki it wouldn't have granted the user as much power as it did.

SSGSS is a Super Saiyan with the 'power of Super Saiyan God', not just god ki.

How can Black have god ki in his base if Kuririn and the others were still able to sense his ki? Being a god and having the power of Super Saiyan God seem to be obviously different.
I base my assumptions on how (at least in the anime) is implied that the ssgod transformations were achieved by Goku and Vegeta learning how to use god ki, so yeah, that's why i consider ssblue to be just a super saiyan using god ki.

I dont't have any response to Krillin and the other's sensing Goku Black's ki tho, tbh the whole, sensing/non sensing the ki of the gods it's kinda weird, i mean Kaiosama is also a god but it doesn't look like he can't be sensed in the same way as Beerus, heck i'm pretty sure Kaioshin's ki is not any different.

My point still stands, in the anime guides ssrosé is considered Black's version of super saiyan blue, which is apparently achieved by learning how to use god ki, which Black already has, he doesn't need to relearn how to control it, the only thing he needed to learn was to tansform, idk it always seemed like common sense to me :lol:
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Re: Super Saiyan Rosé - The Anime's interpretation (Compared to the Manga's)

Post by Aim » Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:36 am

dbs fanboy wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:10 am
I base my assumptions on how (at least in the anime) is implied that the ssgod transformations were achieved by Goku and Vegeta learning how to use god ki, so yeah, that's why i consider ssblue to be just a super saiyan using god ki.
But it's stated by Goku even that it's the power of Super Saiyan God with Super Saiyan. Vegeta was able to sense Whis in base form, giving us a clue that you might not need to be Super Saiyan God in order to sense god ki and it can be taught. If SSGSS was only Super Saiyan with god ki, then they would not be able to go regular Super Saiyan.
I dont't have any response to Krillin and the other's sensing Goku Black's ki tho, tbh the whole, sensing/non sensing the ki of the gods it's kinda weird, i mean Kaiosama is also a god but it doesn't look like he can't be sensed in the same way as Beerus, heck i'm pretty sure Kaioshin's ki is not any different.
Reading through the Buu arc there's indications that no one sensed his ki, unless I'm missing something, it was Piccolo who realised he was a god. (Don't quote me on that, I gotta double check)
My point still stands, in the anime guides ssrosé is considered Black's version of super saiyan blue, which is apparently achieved by learning how to use god ki, which Black already has, he doesn't need to relearn how to control it, the only thing he needed to learn was to tansform, idk it always seemed like common sense to me :lol:
The anime doesn't state Rosé is SSGSS. It's always been referred as Super Saiyan, it was never acknowledged as Super Saiyan God, even though it does have god ki, it's still not SSGSS, or at least what Son and the others consider SSGSS.

If Goku Black knew how to control god ki, then going Super Saiyan would result in his version of Super Saiyan, at best you could argue it's his version of Super Saiyan God.

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Re: Super Saiyan Rosé - The Anime's interpretation (Compared to the Manga's)

Post by Dragon Wukong » Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:36 pm

Why is there a debate in this topic? The anime never explains SS Rose, while the manga states its SSB (which, given Zamasu's god ki, makes sense.) SSB itself is just SS but a different color, so why ask/care if Rose is SS or SSB in the anime? And even then, we already know what it is in one continuity, and Toriyama's notes said Black could go regular SS AND Rose, so I'd assume Rose is just his SSB.

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Re: Super Saiyan Rosé - The Anime's interpretation (Compared to the Manga's)

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:01 am

I agree with some of the things you said, although this discussion is not going to change much now. Anyway, I also don't like the explanation that Base Black already has God Ki for having the soul of a Kaioshin and by transforming into regular SSJ he recreates the SSB concept, because that would imply that he could use SSJ2, 3 and the God forms on top of a form that is already supposed to be godly, and the anime, even though it was extremely vague in its explanation of SSJ Rosé (so vague that it made room for these doubts) never suggested that this was possible.

So, I believe SSJ Rosé was supposed to be Black's version of SSB considering the manga, Toriyama's notes on Black's design and Black's own lines in the anime when he talks about naming the transformation the same way Goku did with SSB. The problem is just that the anime was very vague, as it was in many other situations

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Re: Super Saiyan Rosé - The Anime's interpretation (Compared to the Manga's)

Post by MechaTrunks » Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:53 am

dbs fanboy wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:33 am
I will never understand how people argue about this, ssblue is literally just super saiyan but with "god ki", Goku Black already has god ki because he already is a god, super saiyan Rosé is just Black's super saiyan, that's it.
I think this explanation works for the manga, and knowing Toei's writters, they of course didn't have any explanation at all but at least they didn't screw things to the point where the manga explanation can't be used in the anime so in this case and by the virtue of doing nothing, the manga canon can apply here.

So I agree with you.

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Re: Super Saiyan Rosé - The Anime's interpretation (Compared to the Manga's)

Post by Aim » Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:29 am

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 7:36 pm
Why is there a debate in this topic? The anime never explains SS Rose, while the manga states its SSB (which, given Zamasu's god ki, makes sense.) SSB itself is just SS but a different color, so why ask/care if Rose is SS or SSB in the anime? And even then, we already know what it is in one continuity, and Toriyama's notes said Black could go regular SS AND Rose, so I'd assume Rose is just his SSB.
The anime never explicitly explained it, but we did get a small "guide" through V-Jump and the dialogue.

Toriyama said he had SSJ and R, but the notes were vague and for all we know Toei misinterpreted that.
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:01 am
I agree with some of the things you said, although this discussion is not going to change much now. Anyway, I also don't like the explanation that Base Black already has God Ki for having the soul of a Kaioshin and by transforming into regular SSJ he recreates the SSB concept, because that would imply that he could use SSJ2, 3 and the God forms on top of a form that is already supposed to be godly, and the anime, even though it was extremely vague in its explanation of SSJ Rosé (so vague that it made room for these doubts) never suggested that this was possible.

So, I believe SSJ Rosé was supposed to be Black's version of SSB considering the manga, Toriyama's notes on Black's design and Black's own lines in the anime when he talks about naming the transformation the same way Goku did with SSB. The problem is just that the anime was very vague, as it was in many other situations
Even so, it's never referred to as a god form like SSGSS was. The naming conventions could easily be explained by him not only mimicking Blue, but Super Saiyan 2, 3 and God.

If you don't like the explanation because it implies Black can top 2 and 3 with god power, then you can easily say the same for Blue.

There's no doubt it was meant to be SSGSS or SSJB, at least in the manga, but in the anime it's Goku Black's version of Super Saiyan, or at least his own unique pink Super Saiyan. As for Black being able to go 2, 3, etc, with Super, who knows, but it makes sense for what Toriyama said that Goku would probably only use Super Saiyan instead of 2 & 3.
MechaTrunks wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 3:53 am
I think this explanation works for the manga, and knowing Toei's writters, they of course didn't have any explanation at all but at least they didn't screw things to the point where the manga explanation can't be used in the anime so in this case and by the virtue of doing nothing, the manga canon can apply here.
Probably, but it doesn't, the manga and anime are different continuities.

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Re: Super Saiyan Rosé - The Anime's interpretation (Compared to the Manga's)

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:45 am

The implications of Rosé being his version of Super Saiyan are considerable. It means that Black with his Scythe (so at his supposed peak) had actually unlocked only a fraction of his full potential, because he could eventually go Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3.
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Re: Super Saiyan Rosé - The Anime's interpretation (Compared to the Manga's)

Post by Ajay » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:19 am

You should really use the official translations and not ancient fansubs from the least competent translators on offer. Probably quite important with this semantic analysis.
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Re: Super Saiyan Rosé - The Anime's interpretation (Compared to the Manga's)

Post by ankokudaishogun » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:23 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:45 am
The implications of Rosé being his version of Super Saiyan are considerable. It means that Black with his Scythe (so at his supposed peak) had actually unlocked only a fraction of his full potential, because he could eventually go Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3.
Or, you know. Not.

Blue is literally "a Saiyan with the power of a God(SSG) going SS", which implies they could stack SS2 and 3 on it, but they never did even try.

This implies doing so is either impossible or so inefficient it doesn't warrant the effort.
The same likely applies to Rosé, which is "a Saiyan with the power of a God(Zamasu's soul) going SS".

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Re: Super Saiyan Rosé - The Anime's interpretation (Compared to the Manga's)

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:37 am

ankokudaishogun wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:23 am
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 9:45 am
The implications of Rosé being his version of Super Saiyan are considerable. It means that Black with his Scythe (so at his supposed peak) had actually unlocked only a fraction of his full potential, because he could eventually go Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3.
Or, you know. Not.

Blue is literally "a Saiyan with the power of a God(SSG) going SS", which implies they could stack SS2 and 3 on it, but they never did even try.

This implies doing so is either impossible or so inefficient it doesn't warrant the effort.
The same likely applies to Rosé, which is "a Saiyan with the power of a God(Zamasu's soul) going SS".
In the manga. In the anime it's supposedly his version of Super Saiyan. And Super Saiyan has multiple levels.
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Re: Super Saiyan Rosé - The Anime's interpretation (Compared to the Manga's)

Post by Miracles » Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:00 pm

Ajay wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:19 am
You should really use the official translations and not ancient fansubs from the least competent translators on offer. Probably quite important with this semantic analysis.
Who are the official translators?
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Re: Super Saiyan Rosé - The Anime's interpretation (Compared to the Manga's)

Post by VegettoEX » Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:25 pm

Miracles wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:00 pm
Who are the official translators?
Toei's simulcast stream subtitles and/or FUNimation's home video release subtitles.
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Re: Super Saiyan Rosé - The Anime's interpretation (Compared to the Manga's)

Post by Miracles » Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:40 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:25 pm
Miracles wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:00 pm
Who are the official translators?
Toei's simulcast stream subtitles and/or FUNimation's home video release subtitles.
I'm interested in the former. I can't stand the dub., lol.

Where can I pay for those TOEI simulcast subs?
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