Super Saiyan Rosé - The Anime's interpretation (Compared to the Manga's)

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Re: Super Saiyan Rosé - The Anime's interpretation (Compared to the Manga's)

Post by VegettoEX » Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:03 pm

I am not referring to any dub; FUNimation provides the original Japanese version on their home video releases, with their own English translation of the Japanese dialog (separate from Toei's simulcast subtitle translations) present as English subtitles. This is not the dialog from the English dub.

Toei's simulcast subtitles are available on whatever services originally streamed it, such as Crunchyroll.
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Re: Super Saiyan Rosé - The Anime's interpretation (Compared to the Manga's)

Post by Miracles » Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:36 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:03 pm
I am not referring to any dub; FUNimation provides the original Japanese version on their home video releases, with their own English translation of the Japanese dialog (separate from Toei's simulcast subtitle translations) present as English subtitles. This is not the dialog from the English dub.

Toei's simulcast subtitles are available on whatever services originally streamed it, such as Crunchyroll.
Thank you for the explanation.
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Re: Super Saiyan Rosé - The Anime's interpretation (Compared to the Manga's)

Post by Aim » Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:57 pm

Ajay wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:19 am
You should really use the official translations and not ancient fansubs from the least competent translators on offer. Probably quite important with this semantic analysis.
I don't have access to Funimation's subs, but do correct me if something is drastically different or different enough to suggest that the subs I used weren't accurate.
ankokudaishogun wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:23 am
Or, you know. Not.

Blue is literally "a Saiyan with the power of a God(SSG) going SS", which implies they could stack SS2 and 3 on it, but they never did even try.

This implies doing so is either impossible or so inefficient it doesn't warrant the effort.
The same likely applies to Rosé, which is "a Saiyan with the power of a God(Zamasu's soul) going SS".
It would still be his version of Super Saiyan though? From the research I was able to do as well as the translations I could find, it was almost always referred to as the power of Super Saiyan God, not just god ki.
VegettoEX wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:25 pm
Toei's simulcast stream subtitles and/or FUNimation's home video release subtitles.
Mike! Could you provide some aid here? Do you have access to the Funimation subs? I would really like to see what their subs say as opposed to the ones I could find.

Are the simulcast subtitles more accurate?

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Re: Super Saiyan Rosé - The Anime's interpretation (Compared to the Manga's)

Post by ankokudaishogun » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:04 am

Aim wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:57 pm
It would still be his version of Super Saiyan though?
What part of "Saiyan with god power going Super Saiyan" is hard to understand?
From the research I was able to do as well as the translations I could find, it was almost always referred to as the power of Super Saiyan God, not just god ki.
SSG _IS_, as far as we know, a Saiyan using\gaining the power of a God.

Anime Black is basically a "Saiyan Beyond God" as in "a Saiyan with God Power as Base Form", like originally planned for Goku and Vegeta.
And, likewise, they were supposed to not use their normal SS forma anyway, as them going Super Saiyan would turn then into SSGSS.

God Power+Super Saiyan=Blue\Rosé depending on the source of the Ki.

So, yeah. Rosé is Black's Super Saiyan form once he has full access to his divine powers and it's therefore the equivalent of Blue which is the same thing: God Powered Saiyan+SS

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Re: Super Saiyan Rosé - The Anime's interpretation (Compared to the Manga's)

Post by Aim » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:15 am

ankokudaishogun wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:04 am
What part of "Saiyan with god power going Super Saiyan" is hard to understand?
Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God, is it that hard to know the difference between pure 'god power' and 'the power of Super Saiyan God'?
SSG _IS_, as far as we know, a Saiyan using\gaining the power of a God.
Are you going to show some sources? Or are you going to keep denying and denying without providing evidence for your argument? Super Saiyan God isn't just a Saiyan with god ki. If I'm correct, one requires some usage of god ki to sense others god ki, it was shown Vegeta was able to do this before the Frieza arc, was his hair red? No. It doesn't make any sense and it's not stated anywhere as far as I've seen that all Super Saiyan God is just a Saiyan with god ki and nothing more, how can it only be god ki? It's a transformation for hell's sake.

If anything it's been established that Super Saiyan God as a form grants the user god ki.
Anime Black is basically a "Saiyan Beyond God" as in "a Saiyan with God Power as Base Form", like originally planned for Goku and Vegeta.
And, likewise, they were supposed to not use their normal SS forma anyway, as them going Super Saiyan would turn then into SSGSS.
As far as we know, Saiyan beyond God was a concept that was never revisited. Saiyan beyond god suggests that they probably can't use Super Saiyan God because they absorbed the power into their bases, which then means Super Saiyan God isn't even a form, which isn't the case, you're using outdated concepts.
God Power+Super Saiyan=Blue\Rosé depending on the source of the Ki.
What part of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan don't you understand? It's the power of Super Saiyan God with Super Saiyan, not just god ki. I've looked through the crunchyroll translations and even they state it's Super Saiyan God power, not just god power, how the hell can it be SSGSS if there's no Super Saiyan God involved?
So, yeah. Rosé is Black's Super Saiyan form once he has full access to his divine powers and it's therefore the equivalent of Blue which is the same thing: God Powered Saiyan+SS
Yes and no. It can't be his version of SSGSS or "Blue" because Blue is Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God
, if Black only has pure god ki in his base and not Super Saiyan God, then it's his version of Super Saiyan, one could see it as his regular Super Saiyan form that is the peak of beauty as he would say, or one could see it as a literal Goku Black Super Saiyan form that's unique and different from Blue or regular Super Saiyan due to the certain circumstances.

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Re: Super Saiyan Rosé - The Anime's interpretation (Compared to the Manga's)

Post by The Undying » Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:35 pm

This is all semantics, but there are a couple of things I'd like to clear up about SSB.

As was already mentioned, "Super Saiyan with god ki" is never stated verbatim in the actual source material (RoF + DBS anime/manga) nor is it indicated in any supplementary material that we know of. It's fan speculation. Every known hint and implication about whatever Blue is supposed to be refers to the Super Saiyan God transformation itself.
_________________

As for what descriptions were officially used, this is what we have so far:

Description 1: "A Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan" - Goku in the movie and Super's TV anime.

Note (1): Goku has similarly described Super Saiyan 2 to the effect of "a Super Saiyan beyond a Super Saiyan" in the Boo arc, so Blue could likewise be a Super Saiyan beyond a Super Saiyan God.

Description 2: "A mere power-up from Super Saiyan God" - Beerus in the Super manga.

Note (2): This line fits with the interpretation advocated by Note (1) and directly confirms Blue to be a transformation stage after God itself, not just God's power or divine energy.

Description 3: "The form Goku acquired after turning Super Saiyan while in Super Saiyan God form" - Dragon Ball Fusions.

Note (3): This can either be interpreted to match Notes (1) and (2) or as some kind of combination form of SSG+SS together. Maybe even both, if you're willing to look at every Super Saiyan stage in additive terms. It's not clear, but it makes sense.

That's really the extent of it. It's just the next evolution after SSG.
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Re: Super Saiyan Rosé - The Anime's interpretation (Compared to the Manga's)

Post by Aim » Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:15 am

The Undying wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:35 pm
This is all semantics, but there are a couple of things I'd like to clear up about SSB.

As was already mentioned, "Super Saiyan with god ki" is never stated verbatim in the actual source material (RoF + DBS anime/manga) nor is it indicated in any supplementary material that we know of. It's fan speculation. Every known hint and implication about whatever Blue is supposed to be refers to the Super Saiyan God transformation itself.
_________________

As for what descriptions were officially used, this is what we have so far:

Description 1: "A Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan" - Goku in the movie and Super's TV anime.

Note (1): Goku has similarly described Super Saiyan 2 to the effect of "a Super Saiyan beyond a Super Saiyan" in the Boo arc, so Blue could likewise be a Super Saiyan beyond a Super Saiyan God.

Description 2: "A mere power-up from Super Saiyan God" - Beerus in the Super manga.

Note (2): This line fits with the interpretation advocated by Note (1) and directly confirms Blue to be a transformation stage after God itself, not just God's power or divine energy.

Description 3: "The form Goku acquired after turning Super Saiyan while in Super Saiyan God form" - Dragon Ball Fusions.

Note (3): This can either be interpreted to match Notes (1) and (2) or as some kind of combination form of SSG+SS together. Maybe even both, if you're willing to look at every Super Saiyan stage in additive terms. It's not clear, but it makes sense.

That's really the extent of it. It's just the next evolution after SSG.
Thank you! I don't know where people are getting all this misinformation about Super Saiyan God only being a Saiyan with god ki and nothing else. It makes sense SSGSS is the next evolution above Super Saiyan God. Super Saiyan God or Super Saiyan God power going Super Saiyan. This fandom never ceases to amaze me with it's head canon.

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Re: Super Saiyan Rosé - The Anime's interpretation (Compared to the Manga's)

Post by miguelnuva1 » Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:03 am

Super Saiyan God is a form a mortal has to transform into the become a God but it isn't the only way to acquire God Ki. Black is not a mortal he is a God. When Black turns SSJ instead of yellow hair he gets Rose hair. SSJ Blue is just a mortal who has become a SSJ God now turning SSJ.

The original ssj, ssj blue and ssj rose are all the same thing. Blue and Rose just have you become a God first. Blue and Rose are fused transformations.

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Re: Super Saiyan Rosé - The Anime's interpretation (Compared to the Manga's)

Post by wolflonnie » Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:29 am

ankokudaishogun wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 6:24 pm
It's quite simple:

Blue is SS+God.
God is fundamentally "Saiyan with God Ki"

So Blue="a Saiyan with God Ki going Super Saiyan".

Once Black perfected his mastery of Goku's Body, he could use his God Ki at full power.
Stacking it with Super Saiyan resulted into "a Saiyan with God Ki going Super Saiyan". Aka SSGSS.
His hair were of a different color because either the influence of his soul(as stated in the manga) or because he somehow he willed them that color(which was suggested in the anime IIRC)

The "real" difference is, if anything, in Black's BASE state.
It's explained that his hair turned pink because he's a true god, whereas regular saiyans are not.
I think if a saiyan were to become a GoD, he might transform into Rosé instead of Blue.

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Re: Super Saiyan Rosé - The Anime's interpretation (Compared to the Manga's)

Post by Aim » Sat Mar 28, 2020 8:02 pm

miguelnuva1 wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:03 am
Super Saiyan God is a form a mortal has to transform into the become a God but it isn't the only way to acquire God Ki. Black is not a mortal he is a God. When Black turns SSJ instead of yellow hair he gets Rose hair. SSJ Blue is just a mortal who has become a SSJ God now turning SSJ.

The original ssj, ssj blue and ssj rose are all the same thing. Blue and Rose just have you become a God first. Blue and Rose are fused transformations.
They aren't the same thing.

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Re: Super Saiyan Rosé - The Anime's interpretation (Compared to the Manga's)

Post by miguelnuva1 » Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:22 am

Aim wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 8:02 pm
miguelnuva1 wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:03 am
Super Saiyan God is a form a mortal has to transform into the become a God but it isn't the only way to acquire God Ki. Black is not a mortal he is a God. When Black turns SSJ instead of yellow hair he gets Rose hair. SSJ Blue is just a mortal who has become a SSJ God now turning SSJ.

The original ssj, ssj blue and ssj rose are all the same thing. Blue and Rose just have you become a God first. Blue and Rose are fused transformations.
They aren't the same thing.
All three are SSJ. One is a mortal transforming and the others are a Saiyan God transforming.

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Re: Super Saiyan Rosé - The Anime's interpretation (Compared to the Manga's)

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:52 am

Since SSG is achieved through a ritual involving with pure/righteous hearts, which Goku Black most certainly DOES NOT have, I don't think that SSR is exactly the same as SSB in concept. Maybe similar, but not exact. Well, unless evil Saiyans can also attain the power of SSG.

Since SSB seems like the full expression of power that Super Saiyan can attain (via SSG empowering the SS form), I imagine that SSR is simply the equivalent for Goku Black, being the fullest level of power that his Super Saiyan form can express.

In essence, it's him learning to channel every bit of his godly potential and combining it with SS into his ultimate Saiyan form. So, a bit of manga and a bit of anime in execution. It's not simply infusing SSG into SS, but it also isn't simply normal Super Saiyan. Godly power combined with Saiyan potential into its perfect fusion. In that sense, only Goku Black could ever attain SSR given his unique circumstances.

=

I know it's a bit hard and vague to gauge what this means, but think of it like this: Goku Black's SSR is equivalent to SSR, but instead of empowering SS with SSG to make SSB, he empowers his SS form with the full potential of his Zamasu Ki/soul. It's in essence a substitution.

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Re: Super Saiyan Rosé - The Anime's interpretation (Compared to the Manga's)

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:26 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:52 am
Since SSG is achieved through a ritual involving with pure/righteous hearts, which Goku Black most certainly DOES NOT have, I don't think that SSR is exactly the same as SSB in concept. Maybe similar, but not exact. Well, unless evil Saiyans can also attain the power of SSG.

Since SSB seems like the full expression of power that Super Saiyan can attain (via SSG empowering the SS form), I imagine that SSR is simply the equivalent for Goku Black, being the fullest level of power that his Super Saiyan form can express.

In essence, it's him learning to channel every bit of his godly potential and combining it with SS into his ultimate Saiyan form. So, a bit of manga and a bit of anime in execution. It's not simply infusing SSG into SS, but it also isn't simply normal Super Saiyan. Godly power combined with Saiyan potential into its perfect fusion. In that sense, only Goku Black could ever attain SSR given his unique circumstances.

=

I know it's a bit hard and vague to gauge what this means, but think of it like this: Goku Black's SSR is equivalent to SSR, but instead of empowering SS with SSG to make SSB, he empowers his SS form with the full potential of his Zamasu Ki/soul. It's in essence a substitution.
"Pure" or "Righteous" heart? Because they're not exactly the same thing. Zamasu did have purity of heart.
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Re: Super Saiyan Rosé - The Anime's interpretation (Compared to the Manga's)

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:25 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:52 am
I know it's a bit hard and vague to gauge what this means, but think of it like this: Goku Black's SSR is equivalent to SSR, but instead of empowering SS with SSG to make SSB, he empowers his SS form with the full potential of his Zamasu Ki/soul. It's in essence a substitution.
So, Super Saiyan+God Power, with color depending on the origin of God Power(Blue for SSGod, Pink for Kaiohshin soul).

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Re: Super Saiyan Rosé - The Anime's interpretation (Compared to the Manga's)

Post by dbs fanboy » Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:22 pm

Aim wrote:
Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:15 am
The Undying wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:35 pm
This is all semantics, but there are a couple of things I'd like to clear up about SSB.

As was already mentioned, "Super Saiyan with god ki" is never stated verbatim in the actual source material (RoF + DBS anime/manga) nor is it indicated in any supplementary material that we know of. It's fan speculation. Every known hint and implication about whatever Blue is supposed to be refers to the Super Saiyan God transformation itself.
_________________

As for what descriptions were officially used, this is what we have so far:

Description 1: "A Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan" - Goku in the movie and Super's TV anime.

Note (1): Goku has similarly described Super Saiyan 2 to the effect of "a Super Saiyan beyond a Super Saiyan" in the Boo arc, so Blue could likewise be a Super Saiyan beyond a Super Saiyan God.

Description 2: "A mere power-up from Super Saiyan God" - Beerus in the Super manga.

Note (2): This line fits with the interpretation advocated by Note (1) and directly confirms Blue to be a transformation stage after God itself, not just God's power or divine energy.

Description 3: "The form Goku acquired after turning Super Saiyan while in Super Saiyan God form" - Dragon Ball Fusions.

Note (3): This can either be interpreted to match Notes (1) and (2) or as some kind of combination form of SSG+SS together. Maybe even both, if you're willing to look at every Super Saiyan stage in additive terms. It's not clear, but it makes sense.

That's really the extent of it. It's just the next evolution after SSG.
Thank you! I don't know where people are getting all this misinformation about Super Saiyan God only being a Saiyan with god ki and nothing else. It makes sense SSGSS is the next evolution above Super Saiyan God. Super Saiyan God or Super Saiyan God power going Super Saiyan. This fandom never ceases to amaze me with it's head canon.
If i'm being honest this is why i considered it to be just super saiyan with god ki, it was much simpler to understand than just saying super saiyan with the power of super saiyan god imo :lol:
I really miss ma boy, Black :( :cry:


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Re: Super Saiyan Rosé - The Anime's interpretation (Compared to the Manga's)

Post by dbs fanboy » Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:25 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:52 am
Since SSG is achieved through a ritual involving with pure/righteous hearts, which Goku Black most certainly DOES NOT have, I don't think that
But now here's an issue, Vegeta does have ssgod, and unless i'm wrong, it seems that he achieved it training with Whis without any ritual.
I really miss ma boy, Black :( :cry:


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Re: Super Saiyan Rosé - The Anime's interpretation (Compared to the Manga's)

Post by Grimlock » Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:37 pm

That's only in Toei's continuity so far. We don't know if that's the case in Toyotaro's continuity. And in the movie it is implied he'll undergo the ritual, as he says Goku and the others will do it for him next time.
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Re: Super Saiyan Rosé - The Anime's interpretation (Compared to the Manga's)

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:41 pm

dbs fanboy wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:25 pm
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:52 am
Since SSG is achieved through a ritual involving with pure/righteous hearts, which Goku Black most certainly DOES NOT have, I don't think that
But now here's an issue, Vegeta does have ssgod, and unless i'm wrong, it seems that he achieved it training with Whis without any ritual.
Well he DOES have a pure heart. Given the source of SSG, perhaps any pure-hearted/righteous (both are used interchangeably based on Toriyama's interview where he elaborates on SSG's ritual) can potentially gain the power of SSG without a ritual through godly training.

Anyways, I imagine Goku Black wouldn't have access to this power if it is indeed locked behind purity/righteousness of heart. So, my thinking is that Goku Black has to rely on the natural god power potential he had as Zamasu and use it alongside Goku's body and capacity to turn into a Super Saiyan.

So in effect, I believe Super Saiyan Rosé is a SS form created by combining SS with Zamasu's godliness.

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Re: Super Saiyan Rosé - The Anime's interpretation (Compared to the Manga's)

Post by dbs fanboy » Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:44 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:41 pm
dbs fanboy wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:25 pm
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:52 am
Since SSG is achieved through a ritual involving with pure/righteous hearts, which Goku Black most certainly DOES NOT have, I don't think that
But now here's an issue, Vegeta does have ssgod, and unless i'm wrong, it seems that he achieved it training with Whis without any ritual.
Well he DOES have a pure heart. Given the source of SSG, perhaps any pure-hearted/righteous (both are used interchangeably based on Toriyama's interview where he elaborates on SSG's ritual) can potentially gain the power of SSG without a ritual through godly training.

Anyways, I imagine Goku Black wouldn't have access to this power if it is indeed locked behind purity/righteousness of heart. So, my thinking is that Goku Black has to rely on the natural god power potential he had as Zamasu and use it alongside Goku's body and capacity to turn into a Super Saiyan.

So in effect, I believe Super Saiyan Rosé is a SS form created by combining SS with Zamasu's godliness.
In that case, yeah it makes sense how Vegeta could transform, and it would also explain how Goku could just retain the power when he went back to regular super saiyan.
I really miss ma boy, Black :( :cry:


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Re: Super Saiyan Rosé - The Anime's interpretation (Compared to the Manga's)

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:56 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:25 am
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:52 am
I know it's a bit hard and vague to gauge what this means, but think of it like this: Goku Black's SSR is equivalent to SSR, but instead of empowering SS with SSG to make SSB, he empowers his SS form with the full potential of his Zamasu Ki/soul. It's in essence a substitution.
So, Super Saiyan+God Power, with color depending on the origin of God Power(Blue for SSGod, Pink for Kaiohshin soul).
Pretty much, yeah. Thanks for simplifying it in a way I couldn't! :mrgreen:

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