Is Back Tingling Proper? (and extras)

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Is Back Tingling Proper? (and extras)

Post by experted_luke » Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:05 pm

As you saw when Cabba taught Caulifla how to transform into a Super Saiyan, he mentioned to make the back feel 'tingly'. This may have been discussed before, (not to my knowledge) but is it truly a proper way to introduce Universe 6 Super Saiyans? What would have been a better approach?

Also, what do you think of Kefla's power scaling in the Anime vs the Manga? Which one suited you better? I personally believe that her being on par with Gohan in the manga was much better than her being able to completely stomp a weakened SSB KKx20 Goku.

If you had control over the Tournament of Power, what would you change to make it better for you?

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Re: Is Back Tingling Proper? (and extras)

Post by Matches Malone » Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:36 pm

experted_luke wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:05 pm
When Cabba taught Caulifla how to transform into a Super Saiyan, he mentioned to make the back feel 'tingly'. Is it truly a proper way to introduce Universe 6 Super Saiyans?

I personally believe that her being on par with Gohan in the manga was much better than her being able to completely stomp a weakened SSB KKx20 Goku.

If you had control over the Tournament of Power, what would you change to make it better for you?
It's probably one of the biggest insults to come out of modern DB, all the way up there with DB Minus. Instead of making up nonsense to help them transform faster, why not just start the story with them already being Ssjs ?

By far. How on earth could these 2 girls go from just learning Ssj to being able to hold their own against Blue, and needing UI to take them down ? There's overpowered, then there's Kefla.

There's too many points to mention, but the main thing I'd do is limit it to 4 universes, and 5 fighters per universe. This way every character can get proper screen time and development instead of just being recycled cookie cutters of each other.

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Re: Is Back Tingling Proper? (and extras)

Post by ankokudaishogun » Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:12 pm

experted_luke wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:05 pm
As you saw when Cabba taught Caulifla how to transform into a Super Saiyan, he mentioned to make the back feel 'tingly'. This may have been discussed before, (not to my knowledge) but is it truly a proper way to introduce Universe 6 Super Saiyans? What would have been a better approach?
the U6 introduction to Super Saiyans was Vegeta enraging Cabba so much he transformed.

I have no issues with the "tingling", it's nothing more than what everybody always did except skipping the need to get enrage enough to learn how to properly focus their Ki to transform.
Cabba is just better at explaining this stuff than Goku and Vegeta, and Caulifla is a super-genius.
Also, what do you think of Kefla's power scaling in the Anime vs the Manga? Which one suited you better? I personally believe that her being on par with Gohan in the manga was much better than her being able to completely stomp a weakened SSB KKx20 Goku.
They both work, mostly because the massive difference in their Kale.

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Re: Is Back Tingling Proper? (and extras)

Post by Dragon Wukong » Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:28 pm

experted_luke wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:05 pm
As you saw when Cabba taught Caulifla how to transform into a Super Saiyan, he mentioned to make the back feel 'tingly'. This may have been discussed before, (not to my knowledge) but is it truly a proper way to introduce Universe 6 Super Saiyans? What would have been a better approach?

Also, what do you think of Kefla's power scaling in the Anime vs the Manga? Which one suited you better? I personally believe that her being on par with Gohan in the manga was much better than her being able to completely stomp a weakened SSB KKx20 Goku.

If you had control over the Tournament of Power, what would you change to make it better for you?
Manga Kefla should've been as strong as anime Kefla, and anime Kefla should've been as strong as manga Kefla, in my opinion. It's all in how power Kale and Caulifla are portrayed pre-fusion. Anime Caulifla and Kale were just kinda strong SS2's, (which kinda undid Kale's feats against Goku as an SSB earlier), while Kale in the manga was enough to fend off and nearly KNOCK OFF several SSB-level fighters in her short period of going berserk, as well as foreshadowing Broly's power. So, I think it would've made more sense to have Kefla in the anime be kinda on par with SSG as a Super Saiyan, and SSB as an SS2, while the manga version should've arguably had Kefla up there near Jiren. However, this can be justified via the massive gap between Kale and Caulifla in the manga, as well as the fact Kale's power was starting to RAPIDLY drop.

That being said, I do appreciate Gohan getting what can be considered in-series his most incredible win.

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Re: Is Back Tingling Proper? (and extras)

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:33 pm

Goku confirms that he also gets the tingly back feeling, so it's not exclusive to U6 Saiyans. And it was only used as a plot device solely for Caulifla, not Kale or Cabba who still required an emotional trigger to transform. Experienced Super Saiyans do not need an emotional trigger. They can just transform at will, and the tingly back thing is used as some extra detail in what an experienced SSJ needs to do to transform (make their back tingle).

Caulifla's narrative schtick is that she's some kind of prodigy, so her first SSJ transformation is as if she was already experienced. It's why Cabba trying to explain an emotional trigger didn't mesh with her. She didn't understand it. But when Cabba explained that (since he's experienced) all he needs to do is make his back tingle, Caulifla was like "well why didn't you just tell me that before?!". Caulifla learns better from technicality rather than emotional triggers. The latter just doesn't click with her for some reason.

People hate this, but quite frankly, it isn't any worse than Goten or Trunks turning SSJ on a whim. The case with Goten and Trunks could actually be seen as worse because at least Caulifla is older than both of them. And there's even worse ass-pulls in the series like SSJRage for Future Trunks.

I don't mind Caulifla's unusual talent that much.

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Re: Is Back Tingling Proper? (and extras)

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:05 am

New characters learning from the mistakes and experiences of others is good and I like it.
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Re: Is Back Tingling Proper? (and extras)

Post by ShaggyBlanco » Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:49 am

I think it was a nice way to show how advanced Caulifla was, it even fits more with that S-Cell stuff Toriyama said and U6 saiyans having more because of the peaceful environment
And after Broly became stronger than 2 SSBs in his first fight I can't care about U6 having "too much power" as some people complained
Goku and Vegeta couldn't even touch Buuhan but after potara Vegetto could beat him just using his legs, imo Kefla's power was better in the anime

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Re: Is Back Tingling Proper? (and extras)

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:54 am

I don't think it's bad per se but they definitely coulda done it better. Super Saiyan being triggered by chi points on the body was a great idea. Unfortunately Dragon Ball has been light on the Eastern mysticism for decades now and even beyond that there's been no explanation as to how U6 Saiyans even became so good at ki manipulation in the first place. Their arc ended up a continuity mess done to set up characters that fell far short of the fan hype around MOAR SAIYANS.

This isn't even an example of fans backseat writing. Obviously new alternate universe Saiyans should have known about Super Saiyan. It's so obvious Toriyama did just that when he introduced Trunks way back in the closing chapters of the Freeza Arc. It keeps things neat and tidy.

But as far as dumbest series asspulls it doesn't rank all that high. You've still got Cell learning teleportion from blowing up Goku and S-Cells. It's something that coulda been done much better and wasn't because Dragon Ball isn't written to make sense.
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Re: Is Back Tingling Proper? (and extras)

Post by Kataphrut » Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:28 am

I believe there was an interview kicking around from the Broly movie which mentions back-tingling was Toriyama's idea, and that they used it as a reference for animating the transformation scenes. Which makes sense- it's his series, he knows it better than anyone. And I would say anyone who complains about it "insulting" the "legacy" of Dragon Ball or the Super Saiyan transformation frankly doesn't get it.

The concept itself is just baby's first guide to chakra points. And you know, it's not like every Super Saiyan who transforms has to get angry to do so. Caulifla just skipped that step because she didn't need it, and no way in hell Cabba was going to get her angry enough to do it that way.

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Re: Is Back Tingling Proper? (and extras)

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:13 am

I [across my time interacting with fandom] find it interesting that [predominately?] grown men are [the only people I, myself, personally, have seen] angry that the series made for young boys introduced an alternative to anger to achieve greater power. Considering the unacceptable amount of pressure placed on cis males to conform to the ideology of "men can only be aggressive and angry" it's really kind of sad seeing only men rail against spiritual control to achieving greater power.
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Re: Is Back Tingling Proper? (and extras)

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:36 am

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:33 pm
People hate this, but quite frankly, it isn't any worse than Goten or Trunks turning SSJ on a whim. The case with Goten and Trunks could actually be seen as worse because at least Caulifla is older than both of them.
I agree with pretty much all the rest of your post. But in this case, I think Super Saiyan came easier for them, because they are already very powerful for a Saiyan and kids tend to give in to their emotion quite usually, while grown-up have more difficulty.
And there's even worse ass-pulls in the series like SSJRage for Future Trunks.
I can’t defend this one. :lol:

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Re: Is Back Tingling Proper? (and extras)

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:00 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:13 am
I [across my time interacting with fandom] find it interesting that [predominately?] grown men are [the only people I, myself, personally, have seen] angry that the series made for young boys introduced an alternative to anger to achieve greater power. Considering the unacceptable amount of pressure placed on cis males to conform to the ideology of "men can only be aggressive and angry" it's really kind of sad seeing only men rail against spiritual control to achieving greater power.
I don't know if it's that deep. Goku's initial transformation, Gohan's fight against Cell, and the Trunks special all put a strong emphasis on tragedy and loss. The implication being you don't become a Super Saiyan without leaving a part of you behind. That set expectations going forward. Present timeline Trunks and Goten ended up subverting those expectations but fans have had almost 30 years to get over that. U6 Saiyans are much more recent so fan feelings for them are also going to be much rawer.
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Re: Is Back Tingling Proper? (and extras)

Post by Matches Malone » Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:48 pm

Kataphrut wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:28 am
It's his series, he knows it better than anyone. And I would say anyone who complains about it frankly doesn't get it.
You don't get it, and clearly have never heard about criticism. Toriyama or any other author can do what they want, but that doesn't mean the audience has to accept it.

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Re: Is Back Tingling Proper? (and extras)

Post by Dbzk1999 » Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:51 pm

Yeah really don’t see a problem with it. All it did is describe the physical/technical feeling a saiyan gets when they go super saiyan. It’s not like it was treated as something exclusive to U6 Saiyans with the U7 Saiyans being unaware of it
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Re: Is Back Tingling Proper? (and extras)

Post by Hulk10 » Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:33 pm

Dbzk1999 wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:51 pm
Yeah really don’t see a problem with it. All it did is describe the physical/technical feeling a saiyan gets when they go super saiyan. It’s not like it was treated as something exclusive to U6 Saiyans with the U7 Saiyans being unaware of it
I don't see a problem with it either.
Matches Malone wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:48 pm
Kataphrut wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:28 am
It's his series, he knows it better than anyone. And I would say anyone who complains about it frankly doesn't get it.
You don't get it, and clearly have never heard about criticism. Toriyama or any other author can do what they want, but that doesn't mean the audience has to accept it.
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Re: Is Back Tingling Proper? (and extras)

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:48 pm

I don't see the problem with Caulifla getting so strong in such a short amount of time. She was described as a genius, so it ultimately makes sense. Just like how Zamasu was a genius and perfectly adapted to Goku's body in about one year.

Kale though, eh. Pretty generic character. Her legendary transformation felt like a cheap way to insert Broly somewhere in the ToP.
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Re: Is Back Tingling Proper? (and extras)

Post by Matches Malone » Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:19 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:48 pm
I don't see the problem with Caulifla getting so strong in such a short amount of time. She was described as a genius, so it ultimately makes sense. Just like how Zamasu was a genius and perfectly adapted to Goku's body in about one year.
I think you're selling Zamasu short by comparing him to Caulifla. Unlike her, Zamasu would've had to train and actually work in order to pull that off. There's also the fact it took him an entire year to do so. Caulifla just did it in a few minutes because she wanted to. There was no training, no hard work, nothing. Even Goten and Kid Trunks, who fans are hard on for transforming so easily, did more than her to reach Ssj.

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Re: Is Back Tingling Proper? (and extras)

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:48 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:19 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:48 pm
I don't see the problem with Caulifla getting so strong in such a short amount of time. She was described as a genius, so it ultimately makes sense. Just like how Zamasu was a genius and perfectly adapted to Goku's body in about one year.
I think you're selling Zamasu short by comparing him to Caulifla. Unlike her, Zamasu would've had to train and actually work in order to pull that off. There's also the fact it took him an entire year to do so. Caulifla just did it in a few minutes because she wanted to. There was no training, no hard work, nothing. Even Goten and Kid Trunks, who fans are hard on for transforming so easily, did more than her to reach Ssj.
I think the "genius" explanation works alright. Suspension of disbelief is required here, but honestly it's not that far-fetched. Caulifla was clearly a prodigy and genius (plus with her being a gang leader of saiyans and all), and she was taking lessons from Cabba, someone who had already unlocked Super Saiyan.

I compared her to Zamasu because it was the first example that came to mind, I could've compared her to Freeza too, another prodigy. Man basically went from trash tier to SSB tier in 4 months.

Would it have been better if they showed more scenes of Caulifla training with Cabba before going Super Saiyan? Perhaps. But I think this issue was blown out of proportion back in the day (now I don't see a lot of people complaining about Caulifla and Kale).
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Re: Is Back Tingling Proper? (and extras)

Post by SSJgogeto » Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:52 pm

I don't have a problem with it either. I would have a problem if the "tingly back" was a retcon, though.

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Re: Is Back Tingling Proper? (and extras)

Post by Matches Malone » Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:56 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:48 pm
Would it have been better if they showed more scenes of Caulifla training with Cabba before going Super Saiyan? Perhaps.
I think it would've helped if the tournament was at least half a year away form when it was announced. That way, Caulifla and even Gohan would have actual time to train, making their power ups believable.

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