Manga UI Omen Goku is very impressive. While Moro was very unimpressive

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GodVegetto91
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Manga UI Omen Goku is very impressive. While Moro was very unimpressive

Post by GodVegetto91 » Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:38 pm

This was honestly VERY surprising for me to learn. I thought for sure that Moro was going to own UI Omen Goku in every conceivable way. But no, the opposite was true. For the far end majority of their fight, UIO Goku was overwhelming Moro massively, and only at the end of the fight, after powering up to full power, AND using a cheat tactic, did Moro “overpower” UI Omen Goku.

Yes, UIO Goku did no real “damage” to Moro, since that’s impossible in UIO. Who is not very powerful offensively, and Moro is a near-immortal being. But still, he did overwhelmingly push him back and annoy him!

And this isn’t even the real Ultra Instinct guys! He still has the silver haired version to tap into!
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Re: Manga UI Omen Goku is very impressive. While Moro was very unimpressive

Post by Miracles » Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:54 pm

Not really, both were equally trading against each other while implementing a strategy. Other than omen being faster, they were pretty much even.

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Re: Manga UI Omen Goku is very impressive. While Moro was very unimpressive

Post by Lionel » Mon Apr 20, 2020 7:02 pm

Moro hasn't exhibited the most serviceably unorthodox of magical techniques. Much of them can be summed up as ranged energy absorption, telekinesis, a Zanzoken esque illusion, paralysis/immobility (doesn't completely restrain the victim), and fulminous/flame like projectiles. It's nothing we haven't seen before. Someone like Cell arguably has similar techniques.

What I'm concerned about is Toyotaro retreating back into the same old process by characterising Moro as a power based fighter as we're seeing right now at the end of the chapter. I think he should seeking to expand on Moro's magic by having him discover and employ new peculiar means for compensating physical weakness both in defence, offence, and speed.

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Re: Manga UI Omen Goku is very impressive. While Moro was very unimpressive

Post by Jmass97 » Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:13 pm

Lionel wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 7:02 pm
Moro hasn't exhibited the most serviceably unorthodox of magical techniques. Much of them can be summed up as ranged energy absorption, telekinesis, a Zanzoken esque illusion, paralysis/immobility (doesn't completely restrain the victim), and fulminous/flame like projectiles. It's nothing we haven't seen before. Someone like Cell arguably has similar techniques.

What I'm concerned about is Toyotaro retreating back into the same old process by characterising Moro as a power based fighter as we're seeing right now at the end of the chapter. I think he should seeking to expand on Moro's magic by having him discover and employ new peculiar means for compensating physical weakness both in defence, offence, and speed.
I understand where you’re coming from but Moro states in the chapter itself that he has a number of abilities he hasn’t shown yet so let’s just relax. Also, Moro has to grow in physical strength so that way he’s a huge threat with and without his magic. Otherwise you’d have the internet trolls going crazy about how Moro couldn’t possibly beat Jiren, Broly, etc. The fact a suppressed Moro can fight a current UI Omen Goku to a draw (even though yes, Goku had the advantage) is impressive considering the fact that Goku got stronger after the TOP then continued to train on top of that before fighting Broly, then he grew stronger after fighting Broly and continued to train still before facing Moro for the first time. He lost to Moro the first time and nearly died and then lost a second time to the point where his energy was so low he couldn’t use IT. Then he trains to near death for 6 months straight with an angel and can tap into UI Omen at will. This Goku is completely different from the one before as stated by Goku himself at the beginning of the last chapter. No offense but this downplay of Moro needs to stop please.

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Re: Manga UI Omen Goku is very impressive. While Moro was very unimpressive

Post by Lionel » Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:29 pm

Jmass97 wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:13 pm
Lionel wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 7:02 pm
Moro hasn't exhibited the most serviceably unorthodox of magical techniques. Much of them can be summed up as ranged energy absorption, telekinesis, a Zanzoken esque illusion, paralysis/immobility (doesn't completely restrain the victim), and fulminous/flame like projectiles. It's nothing we haven't seen before. Someone like Cell arguably has similar techniques.

What I'm concerned about is Toyotaro retreating back into the same old process by characterising Moro as a power based fighter as we're seeing right now at the end of the chapter. I think he should seeking to expand on Moro's magic by having him discover and employ new peculiar means for compensating physical weakness both in defence, offence, and speed.
I understand where you’re coming from but Moro states in the chapter itself that he has a number of abilities he hasn’t shown yet so let’s just relax. Also, Moro has to grow in physical strength so that way he’s a huge threat with and without his magic. Otherwise you’d have the internet trolls going crazy about how Moro couldn’t possibly beat Jiren, Broly, etc. The fact a suppressed Moro can fight a current UI Omen Goku to a draw (even though yes, Goku had the advantage) is impressive considering the fact that Goku got stronger after the TOP then continued to train on top of that before fighting Broly, then he grew stronger after fighting Broly and continued to train still before facing Moro for the first time. He lost to Moro the first time and nearly died and then lost a second time to the point where his energy was so low he couldn’t use IT. Then he trains to near death for 6 months straight with an angel and can tap into UI Omen at will. This Goku is completely different from the one before as stated by Goku himself at the beginning of the last chapter. No offense but this downplay of Moro needs to stop please.
We'll certainly know in the next few chapters. Personally, as it stands, I would have been more intrigued at how Toyotaro went about rendering an enfeebled Moro akin to Babidi as a viable threat. If the creativity is there then it should be doable.

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Re: Manga UI Omen Goku is very impressive. While Moro was very unimpressive

Post by Jmass97 » Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:32 pm

Lionel wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:29 pm
Jmass97 wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:13 pm
Lionel wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 7:02 pm
Moro hasn't exhibited the most serviceably unorthodox of magical techniques. Much of them can be summed up as ranged energy absorption, telekinesis, a Zanzoken esque illusion, paralysis/immobility (doesn't completely restrain the victim), and fulminous/flame like projectiles. It's nothing we haven't seen before. Someone like Cell arguably has similar techniques.

What I'm concerned about is Toyotaro retreating back into the same old process by characterising Moro as a power based fighter as we're seeing right now at the end of the chapter. I think he should seeking to expand on Moro's magic by having him discover and employ new peculiar means for compensating physical weakness both in defence, offence, and speed.
I understand where you’re coming from but Moro states in the chapter itself that he has a number of abilities he hasn’t shown yet so let’s just relax. Also, Moro has to grow in physical strength so that way he’s a huge threat with and without his magic. Otherwise you’d have the internet trolls going crazy about how Moro couldn’t possibly beat Jiren, Broly, etc. The fact a suppressed Moro can fight a current UI Omen Goku to a draw (even though yes, Goku had the advantage) is impressive considering the fact that Goku got stronger after the TOP then continued to train on top of that before fighting Broly, then he grew stronger after fighting Broly and continued to train still before facing Moro for the first time. He lost to Moro the first time and nearly died and then lost a second time to the point where his energy was so low he couldn’t use IT. Then he trains to near death for 6 months straight with an angel and can tap into UI Omen at will. This Goku is completely different from the one before as stated by Goku himself at the beginning of the last chapter. No offense but this downplay of Moro needs to stop please.
We'll certainly know in the next few chapters. Personally, as it stands, I would have been more intrigued at how Toyotaro went about rendering an enfeebled Moro akin to Babidi as a viable threat. If the creativity is there then it should be doable.
I absolutely agree. Fingers crossed they do something cool down the line!

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Re: Manga UI Omen Goku is very impressive. While Moro was very unimpressive

Post by Miracles » Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:37 pm

If you also noticed Moro was pretty much taking Goku's hits. He seemed more annoyed than actually hurt. One scene comes to mind where a power difference was shown where both hit each other in the gut and Goku had that "I got to go to the ER" look while Moro wasn't really phased. It was all part of his strategy to wear Goku down, realizing Goku can't keep Omen up for long.

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Re: Manga UI Omen Goku is very impressive. While Moro was very unimpressive

Post by Peach » Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:43 pm

What are you talking about?

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Re: Manga UI Omen Goku is very impressive. While Moro was very unimpressive

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:51 am

In the manga, UI Omen never lacked offense, this was only addressed in the anime. So the fact that suppressed Moro didn’t take any real damage even though he received dozens of hits from a version of UI Omen stronger than ever (massively stronger than in the ToP) is proof that he is at least on par with Goku , who got the advantage in the fight because of his speed. Not to mention that Moro himself was waiting for Goku's stamina to decrease during the fight

And nothing has been said about this being Moro's full power. what we saw was that after the power up, he made UI Omen Goku return to his normal state using only brute force.

So I don't really agree with Moro being supposedly unimpressed

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Re: Manga UI Omen Goku is very impressive. While Moro was very unimpressive

Post by GodVegetto91 » Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:54 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:51 am
In the manga, UI Omen never lacked offense, this was only addressed in the anime. So the fact that suppressed Moro didn’t take any real damage even though he received dozens of hits from a version of UI Omen stronger than ever (massively stronger than in the ToP) is proof that he is at least on par with Goku , who got the advantage in the fight because of his speed. Not to mention that Moro himself was waiting for Goku's stamina to decrease during the fight

And nothing has been said about this being Moro's full power. what we saw was that after the power up, he made UI Omen Goku return to his normal state using only brute force.

So I don't really agree with Moro being supposedly unimpressed
Maybe my expectations were too high? I literally believed Moro would be “terrifyingly more superior” to UIO Goku before this chapter came out.
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Re: Manga UI Omen Goku is very impressive. While Moro was very unimpressive

Post by theherodjl » Tue Apr 21, 2020 3:48 am

I'm not entirely sure if Moro has powered all the way up yet. Toriyama & Toyotaro seem to still be teasing about Vegeta contributing somehow and its highly likely that Goku is going to have a chance to tap into & show off MUI, two things that can only happen if Moro is not at his maximum power and/or hasn't revealed all of his tricks.
My current prediction is that Goku is going to struggle using UIO in the next chapter and will eventually pull out MUI...but he won't be able to defeat/kill Moro without some aid, namely from Vegeta.
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Re: Manga UI Omen Goku is very impressive. While Moro was very unimpressive

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Apr 21, 2020 7:13 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:51 am
he made UI Omen Goku return to his normal state using only brute force.
I thought he borrowed Pikachu’s move.

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Re: Manga UI Omen Goku is very impressive. While Moro was very unimpressive

Post by Thani » Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:29 pm

Yeah, I assumed Moro drained Goku's energy at that moment, disrupting his stamina so he couldn't keep UIO active.

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Re: Manga UI Omen Goku is very impressive. While Moro was very unimpressive

Post by GodVegetto91 » Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:05 pm

Thani wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:29 pm
Yeah, I assumed Moro drained Goku's energy at that moment, disrupting his stamina so he couldn't keep UIO active.
He didn’t. He merely squeezed him to death nearly. That’s why Goku lost the form.

And to someone else here earlier in the thread: For the Manga, the same obvious rule still applies. Ultra Instinct Omen is very ineffective OFFENSIVELY. Why do you think he never even “hurt” Moro once, during this fight? Yes, he did push back, yes he did “some” damage. But he will never be able to knock Moro out, or outright KILL Moro, without the full Ultra Instinct’s power. That’s a fact. It’s just not good for “getting the job done”. It’s only effective for saving your own ass and getting out of danger.

Also, it’s very likely that Moro will absorb even more planets and lifeforms in the future. So he will likely get even stronger!

But we’ll see.
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Re: Manga UI Omen Goku is very impressive. While Moro was very unimpressive

Post by Thani » Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:34 pm

Well, Goku is postulating that HE CAN, in fact, do exactly that. And so far, Moro hasn't denied it. We'll have to wait for the later chapters.

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Re: Manga UI Omen Goku is very impressive. While Moro was very unimpressive

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:08 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:54 am
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:51 am
In the manga, UI Omen never lacked offense, this was only addressed in the anime. So the fact that suppressed Moro didn’t take any real damage even though he received dozens of hits from a version of UI Omen stronger than ever (massively stronger than in the ToP) is proof that he is at least on par with Goku , who got the advantage in the fight because of his speed. Not to mention that Moro himself was waiting for Goku's stamina to decrease during the fight

And nothing has been said about this being Moro's full power. what we saw was that after the power up, he made UI Omen Goku return to his normal state using only brute force.

So I don't really agree with Moro being supposedly unimpressed
Maybe my expectations were too high? I literally believed Moro would be “terrifyingly more superior” to UIO Goku before this chapter came out.
Moro couldn't start the fight being like MUI level. That way, he would have easily destroyed Goku. Anyway, we don't know if he is in fact using his maximum power, and he seems confident to continue facing UI Omen Goku.
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:05 pm
Thani wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:29 pm
Yeah, I assumed Moro drained Goku's energy at that moment, disrupting his stamina so he couldn't keep UIO active.
He didn’t. He merely squeezed him to death nearly. That’s why Goku lost the form.

And to someone else here earlier in the thread: For the Manga, the same obvious rule still applies. Ultra Instinct Omen is very ineffective OFFENSIVELY. Why do you think he never even “hurt” Moro once, during this fight? Yes, he did push back, yes he did “some” damage. But he will never be able to knock Moro out, or outright KILL Moro, without the full Ultra Instinct’s power. That’s a fact. It’s just not good for “getting the job done”. It’s only effective for saving your own ass and getting out of danger.

Also, it’s very likely that Moro will absorb even more planets and lifeforms in the future. So he will likely get even stronger!

But we’ll see.
We cannot apply all the anime rules to the manga, considering all the differences that these two media have (in terms of transformations, concepts and even character backstory). And in the manga, UI Omen was never said to be inefficient offensively. When Merus talks about Omen's weaknesses with Whis, he never says that the offensive is weak or anything, just that it is a form that uses a lot of energy.

Moro manages to tank all these attacks simply because he is very strong and durable. Even with so many direct attacks received, he has no visible damage and even laughed even though he was supposedly at a disadvantage

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Re: Manga UI Omen Goku is very impressive. While Moro was very unimpressive

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:37 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:05 pm
Thani wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:29 pm
Yeah, I assumed Moro drained Goku's energy at that moment, disrupting his stamina so he couldn't keep UIO active.
He didn’t. He merely squeezed him to death nearly. That’s why Goku lost the form.
Wasn’t that the same thunderbolt attack that fried Saganbo’s corpse?

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Re: Manga UI Omen Goku is very impressive. While Moro was very unimpressive

Post by Thani » Tue Apr 21, 2020 10:18 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:37 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:05 pm
Thani wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:29 pm
Yeah, I assumed Moro drained Goku's energy at that moment, disrupting his stamina so he couldn't keep UIO active.
He didn’t. He merely squeezed him to death nearly. That’s why Goku lost the form.
Wasn’t that the same thunderbolt attack that fried Saganbo’s corpse?
Yeah, the sound effect is "kzzt", like a zap or bolt of electricity. Unlike, for example, "crunch", which would imply crushing. To me, Moro indeed zapped Goku or something.

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Re: Manga UI Omen Goku is very impressive. While Moro was very unimpressive

Post by GodVegetto91 » Tue Apr 21, 2020 10:21 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:08 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:54 am
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:51 am
In the manga, UI Omen never lacked offense, this was only addressed in the anime. So the fact that suppressed Moro didn’t take any real damage even though he received dozens of hits from a version of UI Omen stronger than ever (massively stronger than in the ToP) is proof that he is at least on par with Goku , who got the advantage in the fight because of his speed. Not to mention that Moro himself was waiting for Goku's stamina to decrease during the fight

And nothing has been said about this being Moro's full power. what we saw was that after the power up, he made UI Omen Goku return to his normal state using only brute force.

So I don't really agree with Moro being supposedly unimpressed
Maybe my expectations were too high? I literally believed Moro would be “terrifyingly more superior” to UIO Goku before this chapter came out.
Moro couldn't start the fight being like MUI level. That way, he would have easily destroyed Goku. Anyway, we don't know if he is in fact using his maximum power, and he seems confident to continue facing UI Omen Goku.
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:05 pm
Thani wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:29 pm
Yeah, I assumed Moro drained Goku's energy at that moment, disrupting his stamina so he couldn't keep UIO active.
He didn’t. He merely squeezed him to death nearly. That’s why Goku lost the form.

And to someone else here earlier in the thread: For the Manga, the same obvious rule still applies. Ultra Instinct Omen is very ineffective OFFENSIVELY. Why do you think he never even “hurt” Moro once, during this fight? Yes, he did push back, yes he did “some” damage. But he will never be able to knock Moro out, or outright KILL Moro, without the full Ultra Instinct’s power. That’s a fact. It’s just not good for “getting the job done”. It’s only effective for saving your own ass and getting out of danger.

Also, it’s very likely that Moro will absorb even more planets and lifeforms in the future. So he will likely get even stronger!

But we’ll see.
We cannot apply all the anime rules to the manga, considering all the differences that these two media have (in terms of transformations, concepts and even character backstory). And in the manga, UI Omen was never said to be inefficient offensively. When Merus talks about Omen's weaknesses with Whis, he never says that the offensive is weak or anything, just that it is a form that uses a lot of energy.

Moro manages to tank all these attacks simply because he is very strong and durable. Even with so many direct attacks received, he has no visible damage and even laughed even though he was supposedly at a disadvantage
Yes, we can. Do you need them to spell it out for you? I thought the assumption was beyond obvious. UI Omen is NOT the form’s “full power”. That’s why it’s called “Sign”. That’s why it’s incomplete. And that’s why Goku gets stronger with the silver haired version. And how he’s able to hit, punch, and strike his opponents HARDER with that state. This is like having to explain how SSJ2 is superior to SSJ1. It’s self explanatory.
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Re: Manga UI Omen Goku is very impressive. While Moro was very unimpressive

Post by Miracles » Tue Apr 21, 2020 10:40 pm

Peach wrote:
Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:43 pm
What are you talking about?
You posing the question to me?

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