What do you think of Goku in Toyotaro's Dragon Ball Super?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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What do you think of Goku in Toyotaro's Dragon Ball Super?

Post by ronaldnorth_03 » Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:42 pm

What do you think of Goku in Toyotaro's Dragon Ball Super? Do you think he is a setback or is it a continuation of the same character from Toriyama?

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Re: What do you think of Goku in Toyotaro's Dragon Ball Super?

Post by Dragon Wukong » Sat Apr 25, 2020 8:24 pm

I think he's the same character. He seems more competent than in the anime, remembering to grab the senzus, as well as learning to negate the energy drain of super saiyan blue.

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Re: What do you think of Goku in Toyotaro's Dragon Ball Super?

Post by EGonzo » Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:27 pm

I have a lot of problems with the manga, but Goku is not one of them. For the most part he's consistent with Z's interpretation, and I really like that he's not as dumb as the anime sometimes makes him.

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Re: What do you think of Goku in Toyotaro's Dragon Ball Super?

Post by Koitsukai » Sun Apr 26, 2020 12:16 am

I like him over Toei's but the things I hate the most from the anime are there in the manga too, like the kissing thing, or not noticing that the seal for the Mafuba is a cabaret discount coupon. Those things I just don't see them happening in the original manga, not to adult Goku at least.

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Re: What do you think of Goku in Toyotaro's Dragon Ball Super?

Post by ronaldnorth_03 » Sun Apr 26, 2020 1:11 am

For me, it is closer to the Super anime than the original manga. His way of talking has changed a lot, he doesn't transmit intelligence.

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Re: What do you think of Goku in Toyotaro's Dragon Ball Super?

Post by Lionel » Sun Apr 26, 2020 4:31 am

I think his naivete has been stressed more than what many might be accustomed to from the Z era. Yes, Goku could be overly casual with a lack of proper severity to his conduct when faced with a situation but he still was able to come across as seasoned and competent.

Maybe it's just the artstyle or the deferring to masters, including lessons which he apparently lost sight of, that makes Goku come across as unpolished but from a first glance he does seem "different" in a way compared to Z.

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Re: What do you think of Goku in Toyotaro's Dragon Ball Super?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Apr 26, 2020 5:04 am

He beats Toei's Goku because he didn't have that retarded moment when he met Zamasu, since it was Kibito who fought him in the manga. Goku in ep. 53 is the most retarded, annoying, and selfish MC I have seen in any anime. From the start to the end of that episode he was insufferable. Even Beerus and Whis treated him like a kindergarten child, and rightfully so.
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Re: What do you think of Goku in Toyotaro's Dragon Ball Super?

Post by emperior » Sun Apr 26, 2020 7:51 am

Toyotaro’s Goku is hit and miss, but the same can be said for Toei’s DBS Goku.

I am glad he’s not a retard in the manga during the Future Trunks arc, where Goku was at his absolute worst ever in the anime.

U6 arc Goku is more or less the same in the two mediums, so no complains there.

But I feel like from the Universal Survival Arc onwards Goku was handled much better in the anime.
And the latest Galactic Patrol Prisoner arc also hasn’t really handled Goku well for most of it. He may not be dumb, but he’s felt a bit OOC in different and subtler ways. And also very detached from the plot until very recently.
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Re: What do you think of Goku in Toyotaro's Dragon Ball Super?

Post by Akyon » Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:16 am

He's an improvement over Toei's super incarnation, but he does seem a little more naïve and incompetent at times than Z's Goku.

Mind you anything is an improvement over the Goku who forgot the senzu beans, forgot the talisman needed to seal Zamasu after personally planning to use the Mafuba and at one point actively seemed like the antagonist during the Tournament of Power arc.
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Re: What do you think of Goku in Toyotaro's Dragon Ball Super?

Post by Peach » Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:06 pm

I really don't like the way Goku acts in Dragon Ball Super. This includes the manga.

They've essentially turned him into a caricature of what Goku used to be. He behaves very stupid. He doesn't even know what kissing is and he has two kids. Goku has always loved a good fight, yes, but he's never been so arrogant and vain.

Z showed him becoming more and more humble over time and fighting out of desperation. He trusted in his son, knew Cell outclassed him and surrendered, and trusted in Goten and Trunks to protect the world. If Majin Buu happened in Super, I bet Goku would let Babidi release him because he's "all fired up".

Putting the entire multiverse in jeopardy because he's bored and vain is not something I would expect him to do when he let himself be dead for 7 years to prevent villains from attacking the Earth. I would have expected Goku to learn his place in the universe after such a humble ending in Battle of Gods and have grown into his role as a Grandfather and mentor. I actually think GT has a far better characterization.

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Re: What do you think of Goku in Toyotaro's Dragon Ball Super?

Post by Kataphrut » Sun Apr 26, 2020 10:41 pm

Peach wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:06 pm
I really don't like the way Goku acts in Dragon Ball Super. This includes the manga.

They've essentially turned him into a caricature of what Goku used to be. He behaves very stupid. He doesn't even know what kissing is and he has two kids. Goku has always loved a good fight, yes, but he's never been so arrogant and vain.

Z showed him becoming more and more humble over time and fighting out of desperation. He trusted in his son, knew Cell outclassed him and surrendered, and trusted in Goten and Trunks to protect the world. If Majin Buu happened in Super, I bet Goku would let Babidi release him because he's "all fired up".

Putting the entire multiverse in jeopardy because he's bored and vain is not something I would expect him to do when he let himself be dead for 7 years to prevent villains from attacking the Earth. I would have expected Goku to learn his place in the universe after such a humble ending in Battle of Gods and have grown into his role as a Grandfather and mentor. I actually think GT has a far better characterization.
There are some differences there- trusting Gohan and later Goten and Trunks to take over from him is something Goku abandons by the end of the original manga. By the time it gets to the fight with Kid Buu, he's realised they don't have it in them to do what he does so he finally lets himself have fun with Buu. He plays scissors-paper-rock with Vegeta to see who goes first, breaks the potara earrings and stuffs up the fight because he didn't realise Super Saiyan 3's downside. Doesn't sound like Super Goku to a T?

What it comes down to is that Goku in Super is what would happen if the Goku at the end of Z who ran off to train Uub so he could fight him got a sequel. It's a natural extension of a very negative character arc that most people didn't notice at the time because they read the ending as "Toriyama was gonna make Gohan the hero but then switched back to Goku because fans complained".

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Re: What do you think of Goku in Toyotaro's Dragon Ball Super?

Post by Lionel » Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:33 pm

Kataphrut wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 10:41 pm
Peach wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:06 pm
I really don't like the way Goku acts in Dragon Ball Super. This includes the manga.

They've essentially turned him into a caricature of what Goku used to be. He behaves very stupid. He doesn't even know what kissing is and he has two kids. Goku has always loved a good fight, yes, but he's never been so arrogant and vain.

Z showed him becoming more and more humble over time and fighting out of desperation. He trusted in his son, knew Cell outclassed him and surrendered, and trusted in Goten and Trunks to protect the world. If Majin Buu happened in Super, I bet Goku would let Babidi release him because he's "all fired up".

Putting the entire multiverse in jeopardy because he's bored and vain is not something I would expect him to do when he let himself be dead for 7 years to prevent villains from attacking the Earth. I would have expected Goku to learn his place in the universe after such a humble ending in Battle of Gods and have grown into his role as a Grandfather and mentor. I actually think GT has a far better characterization.
There are some differences there- trusting Gohan and later Goten and Trunks to take over from him is something Goku abandons by the end of the original manga. By the time it gets to the fight with Kid Buu, he's realised they don't have it in them to do what he does so he finally lets himself have fun with Buu. He plays scissors-paper-rock with Vegeta to see who goes first, breaks the potara earrings and stuffs up the fight because he didn't realise Super Saiyan 3's downside. Doesn't sound like Super Goku to a T?

What it comes down to is that Goku in Super is what would happen if the Goku at the end of Z who ran off to train Uub so he could fight him got a sequel. It's a natural extension of a very negative character arc that most people didn't notice at the time because they read the ending as "Toriyama was gonna make Gohan the hero but then switched back to Goku because fans complained".
I think Toriyama's rationale was that he felt Gohan ultimately wasn't suited for the role. It's an argument that I find odd considering how he developed Vegeta from being this conniving impish sociopathic rebel looking to stab his boss in the back while not caring about anyone to an all around better person who's something of a family man who harbours some guilt over his past crimes as of the recent arc and is looking to make amends. We know Toriyama can develop characters when he wants to.

It wouldn't surprise me if popularity influenced Toriyama's decision, to an extent, and he's choosing not to admit it. However, in the end it was ultimately at his discretion who would continue on with the mantle. Personally, I don't care for him retreating back into the careworn narrational trappings that he's perpetuated ad nauseam. I honestly haven't found Goku to be a rootable protagonist whose journey I can sympathise with since the original Freeza arc. Now it's like the dynamics are stuck in an unending rut only now we have Vegeta to unceasingly carry on the role of rival.

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Re: What do you think of Goku in Toyotaro's Dragon Ball Super?

Post by The Undying » Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:52 am

There's an argument to be made that Goku actually becomes increasingly selfish/reckless as the original manga progresses post-Piccolo. I wouldn't dispute that; by the Boo arc, those more self-centered moments are so frequent that it's difficult to avoid noticing some negative development there.

I think that characterization largely aligns with his portrayal in the Super manga, and he's definitely not as egregiously goofy as in the anime.
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Re: What do you think of Goku in Toyotaro's Dragon Ball Super?

Post by Kataphrut » Tue Apr 28, 2020 4:25 am

Lionel wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:33 pm
Kataphrut wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 10:41 pm
Peach wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:06 pm
I really don't like the way Goku acts in Dragon Ball Super. This includes the manga.

They've essentially turned him into a caricature of what Goku used to be. He behaves very stupid. He doesn't even know what kissing is and he has two kids. Goku has always loved a good fight, yes, but he's never been so arrogant and vain.

Z showed him becoming more and more humble over time and fighting out of desperation. He trusted in his son, knew Cell outclassed him and surrendered, and trusted in Goten and Trunks to protect the world. If Majin Buu happened in Super, I bet Goku would let Babidi release him because he's "all fired up".

Putting the entire multiverse in jeopardy because he's bored and vain is not something I would expect him to do when he let himself be dead for 7 years to prevent villains from attacking the Earth. I would have expected Goku to learn his place in the universe after such a humble ending in Battle of Gods and have grown into his role as a Grandfather and mentor. I actually think GT has a far better characterization.
There are some differences there- trusting Gohan and later Goten and Trunks to take over from him is something Goku abandons by the end of the original manga. By the time it gets to the fight with Kid Buu, he's realised they don't have it in them to do what he does so he finally lets himself have fun with Buu. He plays scissors-paper-rock with Vegeta to see who goes first, breaks the potara earrings and stuffs up the fight because he didn't realise Super Saiyan 3's downside. Doesn't sound like Super Goku to a T?

What it comes down to is that Goku in Super is what would happen if the Goku at the end of Z who ran off to train Uub so he could fight him got a sequel. It's a natural extension of a very negative character arc that most people didn't notice at the time because they read the ending as "Toriyama was gonna make Gohan the hero but then switched back to Goku because fans complained".
I think Toriyama's rationale was that he felt Gohan ultimately wasn't suited for the role. It's an argument that I find odd considering how he developed Vegeta from being this conniving impish sociopathic rebel looking to stab his boss in the back while not caring about anyone to an all around better person who's something of a family man who harbours some guilt over his past crimes as of the recent arc and is looking to make amends. We know Toriyama can develop characters when he wants to.

It wouldn't surprise me if popularity influenced Toriyama's decision, to an extent, and he's choosing not to admit it. However, in the end it was ultimately at his discretion who would continue on with the mantle. Personally, I don't care for him retreating back into the careworn narrational trappings that he's perpetuated ad nauseam. I honestly haven't found Goku to be a rootable protagonist whose journey I can sympathise with since the original Freeza arc. Now it's like the dynamics are stuck in an unending rut only now we have Vegeta to unceasingly carry on the role of rival.
Oh, I think Toriyama absolutely came to that decision of his own accord. For a writer like him, you can see why Goku would be a more appealing character to write for, probably why he had to come up with a goofy superhero gimmick out of nowhere for Gohan when he thought he was going to be the main hero. Otherwise, he's just too straight-laced. I just think discussion on Goku's role in the Buu saga tends to stop at that- "he got the win when it should have been Gohan".

Goku is very flat by design, but I think it's interesting that every opponent he's had in Super has been more about giving him a new rival. Beerus, Freeza, Hit, Jiren, Broly, even Zamasu had elements of it like the adopting Goku's love for battle when he became Black. Moro is so different because Toyotaro wanted to create a straight villainous villain. So he's got nothing going on that would interest Goku like a philosophy on strength or capacity for self-improvement, and is more designed to target things Vegeta cares about like truth, justice and the smiles on little baby's faces.

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Re: What do you think of Goku in Toyotaro's Dragon Ball Super?

Post by DragonBallFoodie » Fri May 01, 2020 5:53 pm

I'm not very good at comparing Toyotaro and Toriyama, but I think one significant change is that the world around has become more aware of Goku's existence.

His naivete I think looks more serious, because now that the universe is more aware of him he has to move carefully or else . And being Goku, his actions have greater consequences. If he hadn't wanted to meet Zamasu the whole Black Goku fiasco could have been avoided, and if he hadn't befriended Zeno the whole Tournament of Power may not have had universes being erased. Though who knows how contained Toriyama could kept things if he'd stayed on DBZ, it's clear that Goku's silliness, which could be played for laughs, now look darker and harsher.

Apart from that, I think Toyotaro has kept Goku majorly the same character, and I can't see any large changes in characterization.
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Re: What do you think of Goku in Toyotaro's Dragon Ball Super?

Post by Kodoshin » Tue May 05, 2020 1:34 pm

I think this whole thread has made me think Goku has a lot of the same qualities and problems as Homer Simpson. Similarly I feel like their problems mainly come from being in something that's probably going to go on in perpetuity.

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Re: What do you think of Goku in Toyotaro's Dragon Ball Super?

Post by TobyS » Wed May 06, 2020 5:43 am

DragonBallFoodie wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 5:53 pm
I'm not very good at comparing Toyotaro and Toriyama, but I think one significant change is that the world around has become more aware of Goku's existence.

His naivete I think looks more serious, because now that the universe is more aware of him he has to move carefully or else . And being Goku, his actions have greater consequences. If he hadn't wanted to meet Zamasu the whole Black Goku fiasco could have been avoided, and if he hadn't befriended Zeno the whole Tournament of Power may not have had universes being erased. Though who knows how contained Toriyama could kept things if he'd stayed on DBZ, it's clear that Goku's silliness, which could be played for laughs, now look darker and harsher.

Apart from that, I think Toyotaro has kept Goku majorly the same character, and I can't see any large changes in characterization.
Pretty sure he didn't meet Zamasu in the manga, he got beef from watching god tube.
Same with the ToP Goku didn't spur the earsures, he interrupted them and then they gave him a chance to save U7 (or all of them)
I think "it was all a test" wasn't in the manga, U7 really saved the rest.

This thread is about Toyo, who is the manga guy, I worry people are reading the moror arc and not the rest.
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Re: What do you think of Goku in Toyotaro's Dragon Ball Super?

Post by emperior » Wed May 06, 2020 6:35 am

It’s easy to make confusion. It’s definitely not a good thing that for every modern DB story, except Broly and Moro (for now), we have TWO different takes with Battle of Gods having even THREE.

Everyone’s bound to make some confusion. Especially those fans who aren’t really die-hards who have watched Super and read its manga more than once.
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Re: What do you think of Goku in Toyotaro's Dragon Ball Super?

Post by EGonzo » Sat May 30, 2020 11:48 pm

I really like he's more level-headed than anime Goku (in that he's not acting like a kid nearly as much), but there's just something very unremarkable about him. There's nothing that stands out, no "moments" like the original manga and anime Goku have

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Re: What do you think of Goku in Toyotaro's Dragon Ball Super?

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:40 am

He seems like he was influenced a little by Luffy's constant childish and retarded ways.

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