Could All Of The ToP Contestants Take On The Hakaishin?

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Re: Could All Of The ToP Contestants Take On The Hakaishin?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sun May 03, 2020 3:09 am

I don't think Toppo is stronger than Sidra. Sidra probably just underestimated how much power it would take to kill Freeza, and the fact that he had to hand it to a weak assassin to use instead of using it personally also probably made it less effective.
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Re: Could All Of The ToP Contestants Take On The Hakaishin?

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun May 03, 2020 9:29 am

Jiren is the only one who can fight (and beat) them unless Goku gets UI out again. All the rest? Useless.
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Re: Could All Of The ToP Contestants Take On The Hakaishin?

Post by Mister_Popo » Sun May 03, 2020 3:35 pm

Even if you are on average stronger, you may still be in trouble if you basically can't even touch the others party strongest opponents. It's about the last man standing here. If Beerus can't handle MUI Goku (and stays at Omen-level), the other Gods can't touch him either (assuming Beerus is in effect the strongest God). Belmod should offer no problems to Jiren. If MUI Goku and Jiren are well beyond everything else (assuming none of the Gods are in effect stronger), they might still pose a challenge. The only fighter who may assist with this, would be Kefla. Toppo (apprentice God) and Vegeta weren't strong enough to pose a real threat (or it might be Sidra, maybe but very doubtable), so they could be in trouble against a large number if not all of the Gods. The rest is basically fodder within this context.

If Goku truely masters UI and is far above all Gods, could 12 Gods defeat Jiren (who is way above the Gods as well, as he proved a challenge for MUI) and Goku if they work together? How exactly can the Gods flush those guys if they are a lot faster and stronger and the deities aren't really allowed to use their Hakai-technique to its full extend? Who says Goku and Jiren cannot dodge all their attacks (like Beerus in the exhibition match between the Gods), before they finish matters themselves? A little difference in power is enough to enable big differences during fights as we have seen in DB in the past. Let alone the difference between Omen and MUI, which is huge.

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Re: Could All Of The ToP Contestants Take On The Hakaishin?

Post by Tai Lung » Sun May 03, 2020 4:07 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 3:09 am
I don't think Toppo is stronger than Sidra. Sidra probably just underestimated how much power it would take to kill Freeza, and the fact that he had to hand it to a weak assassin to use instead of using it personally also probably made it less effective.
Toppo = Hakaishin at least it should be equal

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Re: Could All Of The ToP Contestants Take On The Hakaishin?

Post by Mister_Popo » Sun May 03, 2020 5:15 pm

Tai Lung wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 4:07 pm
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 3:09 am
I don't think Toppo is stronger than Sidra. Sidra probably just underestimated how much power it would take to kill Freeza, and the fact that he had to hand it to a weak assassin to use instead of using it personally also probably made it less effective.
Toppo = Hakaishin at least it should be equal


Toppo is a disciple of God.
Vegeta Blue Evolution was able to beat Toppo. This while the form couldn't do much more in my opinion against Jiren than Goku's Blue Kaioken x 20.
The Tournament of Power refers for the first time to power similar to the divine when Jiren drives the Blue Kaioken x20 Spirit Bomb back to Goku.

Whis suggests at the time that Jirens power is at a Destroyers level or even above it. Belmod seems to confirm that. The Gods themselves (Champa etc) were pretty impressed by the Spirit Bomb itself.
Obviously there are Gods much stronger than Blue Kaioken x20 Spirit Bomb or what Jiren showed there, but I think it is an indication where their true strength starts. There may be weaker Gods than that level as this cannot be totally excluded by Whis' and Belmods statements, but I don't see why this notion is made at that stage of the battle, when some Gods like Sidra, for example, are much weaker than Blue Kaioken x20 Spirit Bomb?

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Re: Could All Of The ToP Contestants Take On The Hakaishin?

Post by DragonBallFoodie » Sun May 03, 2020 5:44 pm

Mortals vs Gods, with Angels on standby. Place your bets!
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Re: Could All Of The ToP Contestants Take On The Hakaishin?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sun May 03, 2020 6:17 pm

Tai Lung wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 4:07 pm
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 3:09 am
I don't think Toppo is stronger than Sidra. Sidra probably just underestimated how much power it would take to kill Freeza, and the fact that he had to hand it to a weak assassin to use instead of using it personally also probably made it less effective.
Toppo = Hakaishin at least it should be equal
He was a rookie Hakaishin with no experience. I think if you put him against any of the other 12 he would get wrecked.

Also I don't remember any of the Hakaishin being super impressed with the Genki Dama. IIRC Anak (the Hakaishin of universe 8) just said something like 'that's a decent amount of energy', while he was still laying back and relaxing. Basically saying it was impressive for a mortal but not anything he would have to worry about.
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Re: Could All Of The ToP Contestants Take On The Hakaishin?

Post by Koitsukai » Mon May 04, 2020 12:47 am

MUI Goku took down Jiren in three different times. The weakest Jiren MUI beat down was already stronger than Belmod.

So Goku alone should be able to defeat 3 GoDs that are equal or weaker than Belmod, Jiren should take down 2 or maybe 3 too, at least half of the GoDs between them.

The rest would be too much for them I think, considering the help from Toppo, Kefla or SSBE wouldn't be enough IMO, and that their God-surpassing power isn't infinite. MUI crashed after three "big" fights, soy maybe they could all take out like 7 or 8 hakaishin at best.

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Re: Could All Of The ToP Contestants Take On The Hakaishin?

Post by theherodjl » Mon May 04, 2020 9:46 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Mon May 04, 2020 12:47 am
MUI Goku took down Jiren in three different times. The weakest Jiren MUI beat down was already stronger than Belmod.

So Goku alone should be able to defeat 3 GoDs that are equal or weaker than Belmod, Jiren should take down 2 or maybe 3 too, at least half of the GoDs between them.

The rest would be too much for them I think, considering the help from Toppo, Kefla or SSBE wouldn't be enough IMO, and that their God-surpassing power isn't infinite. MUI crashed after three "big" fights, soy maybe they could all take out like 7 or 8 hakaishin at best.
If MUI Goku & LB Jiren worked together, they ought to be able to kick all of the Hakaishin out of the arena one-by-one. Any of the deities might offer substantial resistance against the individual fighters but a single Hakaishin simply would not be able to handle Goku & Jiren at the same time. Even Beerus ought to be sent flying by that Combo.
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Re: Could All Of The ToP Contestants Take On The Hakaishin?

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Mon May 04, 2020 12:14 pm

They wouldn't even take one Angel probably.

Of the 80 fighters, only a tiny handful could even hope to stand up to Jiren. The rest would have been wiped out without effort.

What chance would they have against even one Angel? Only Goku, Jiren, Vegeta and Toppo could maybe even scratch one as is.

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Re: Could All Of The ToP Contestants Take On The Hakaishin?

Post by head_cha_la » Mon May 04, 2020 7:10 pm

Goku, Jiren, Vegeta and Kefla could do it!

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Re: Could All Of The ToP Contestants Take On The Hakaishin?

Post by Yo'Goodfella » Sat May 09, 2020 6:49 am

Not a chance, I believe. Even in the most convoluted of circumstances I can think of, I believe the gap is too wide, as most of the mortal forces can just get bopped by the GoDs before they even try to do something. And if fewer participants than the GoDs can stand a chance... I don't see it.
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Re: Could All Of The ToP Contestants Take On The Hakaishin?

Post by Mister_Popo » Sat May 09, 2020 7:19 pm

Yo'Goodfella wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 6:49 am
Not a chance, I believe. Even in the most convoluted of circumstances I can think of, I believe the gap is too wide, as most of the mortal forces can just get bopped by the GoDs before they even try to do something. And if fewer participants than the GoDs can stand a chance... I don't see it.

The thing is ... we don't exactly know how wide the gap is between a God that hasn't mastered UI and a mortal that has (like Goku if he masters the sylver hair form, Jiren hasn't mastered UI, but apparently can somehow keep up with it).
MUI is a more an ability of an angel than of a God.
If that gap is absolutely huge, the Gods won't be able to touch Goku nor Jiren, not even close.
That could be the case, as the TOP arc insinuated there is a quite a gap between Omen and MUI.

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Re: Could All Of The ToP Contestants Take On The Hakaishin?

Post by Yo'Goodfella » Sun May 10, 2020 3:16 am

Mister_Popo wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 7:19 pm
Yo'Goodfella wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 6:49 am
Not a chance, I believe. Even in the most convoluted of circumstances I can think of, I believe the gap is too wide, as most of the mortal forces can just get bopped by the GoDs before they even try to do something. And if fewer participants than the GoDs can stand a chance... I don't see it.

The thing is ... we don't exactly know how wide the gap is between a God that hasn't mastered UI and a mortal that has (like Goku if he masters the sylver hair form, Jiren hasn't mastered UI, but apparently can somehow keep up with it).
MUI is a more an ability of an angel than of a God.
If that gap is absolutely huge, the Gods won't be able to touch Goku nor Jiren, not even close.
That could be the case, as the TOP arc insinuated there is a quite a gap between Omen and MUI.
Right! That's a thing I didn't consider. The time. That thing wasn't specified in the OP. If it's in a time that Goku masters MUI, then it could also be a time where other characters have gotten stronger. Such as, let's say... Kale and Caulifla achieving higher forms and a better Kefla comes out of it. I'm sure something will happen to them by the time Goku gets MUI again.

Heh, there might be some surprises of other people who have gotten significantly stronger as well. Perhaps so that they join the power ranks of... Who knows... Blue? But of that, I'm not at all sure about. It would be nice to see though.
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Re: Could All Of The ToP Contestants Take On The Hakaishin?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sun May 10, 2020 3:49 pm

Yo'Goodfella wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 3:16 am
Mister_Popo wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 7:19 pm
Yo'Goodfella wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 6:49 am
Not a chance, I believe. Even in the most convoluted of circumstances I can think of, I believe the gap is too wide, as most of the mortal forces can just get bopped by the GoDs before they even try to do something. And if fewer participants than the GoDs can stand a chance... I don't see it.

The thing is ... we don't exactly know how wide the gap is between a God that hasn't mastered UI and a mortal that has (like Goku if he masters the sylver hair form, Jiren hasn't mastered UI, but apparently can somehow keep up with it).
MUI is a more an ability of an angel than of a God.
If that gap is absolutely huge, the Gods won't be able to touch Goku nor Jiren, not even close.
That could be the case, as the TOP arc insinuated there is a quite a gap between Omen and MUI.
Right! That's a thing I didn't consider. The time. That thing wasn't specified in the OP. If it's in a time that Goku masters MUI, then it could also be a time where other characters have gotten stronger. Such as, let's say... Kale and Caulifla achieving higher forms and a better Kefla comes out of it. I'm sure something will happen to them by the time Goku gets MUI again.

Heh, there might be some surprises of other people who have gotten significantly stronger as well. Perhaps so that they join the power ranks of... Who knows... Blue? But of that, I'm not at all sure about. It would be nice to see though.
I think the issue is not that it is valid to interpret the characters that way, but the fact that you're saying stuff like 'it's so obvious', insinuating that there is no other possible interpretation.
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Re: Could All Of The ToP Contestants Take On The Hakaishin?

Post by Yo'Goodfella » Mon May 11, 2020 2:56 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 3:49 pm
Yo'Goodfella wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 3:16 am
Mister_Popo wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 7:19 pm



The thing is ... we don't exactly know how wide the gap is between a God that hasn't mastered UI and a mortal that has (like Goku if he masters the sylver hair form, Jiren hasn't mastered UI, but apparently can somehow keep up with it).
MUI is a more an ability of an angel than of a God.
If that gap is absolutely huge, the Gods won't be able to touch Goku nor Jiren, not even close.
That could be the case, as the TOP arc insinuated there is a quite a gap between Omen and MUI.
Right! That's a thing I didn't consider. The time. That thing wasn't specified in the OP. If it's in a time that Goku masters MUI, then it could also be a time where other characters have gotten stronger. Such as, let's say... Kale and Caulifla achieving higher forms and a better Kefla comes out of it. I'm sure something will happen to them by the time Goku gets MUI again.

Heh, there might be some surprises of other people who have gotten significantly stronger as well. Perhaps so that they join the power ranks of... Who knows... Blue? But of that, I'm not at all sure about. It would be nice to see though.
I think the issue is not that it is valid to interpret the characters that way, but the fact that you're saying stuff like 'it's so obvious', insinuating that there is no other possible interpretation.
A brash judgement I made based on my flawed thinking, I'll admit it.

I thought about that for a bit, but there were some factors I did not see the first time.

I should think a lot more before trying to form a thing like this... And perhaps do a bit more research, I'll admit I'm not an expert in that matter. I'll be more careful in the future.
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Re: Could All Of The ToP Contestants Take On The Hakaishin?

Post by shadd21 » Mon May 18, 2020 8:33 pm

Peach wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 12:12 pm
I just realized something. Whis said Goku and Vegeta could give Beerus a run for his money if they worked together.

...7 of the Destroyers working together couldn't touch Beerus.

Maybe a lot of them really are weak.
Was this in the manga?

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Re: Could All Of The ToP Contestants Take On The Hakaishin?

Post by Peach » Tue May 19, 2020 5:16 am

shadd21 wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 8:33 pm
Peach wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 12:12 pm
I just realized something. Whis said Goku and Vegeta could give Beerus a run for his money if they worked together.

...7 of the Destroyers working together couldn't touch Beerus.

Maybe a lot of them really are weak.
Was this in the manga?
Yep. I'm not sure what the exact chapter was, but the exhibition match is between all the destroyers (except the three or four universes excluded from the tournament).

They all charge Beerus at once. None of them can even touch him.

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Re: Could All Of The ToP Contestants Take On The Hakaishin?

Post by shadd21 » Tue May 19, 2020 9:03 am

Peach wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 5:16 am
shadd21 wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 8:33 pm
Peach wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 12:12 pm
I just realized something. Whis said Goku and Vegeta could give Beerus a run for his money if they worked together.

...7 of the Destroyers working together couldn't touch Beerus.

Maybe a lot of them really are weak.
Was this in the manga?
Yep. I'm not sure what the exact chapter was, but the exhibition match is between all the destroyers (except the three or four universes excluded from the tournament).

They all charge Beerus at once. None of them can even touch him.
Was Champa and Quitela among them? If so i wouldn't put stock in this scene being an indication of Beerus > the other GoDs, as Quitela was shown a few pages later fighting Beerus to a stalemate, whereas Champa in the U6 arc was shown in a flashback fighting more or less on par with Beerus.

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Re: Could All Of The ToP Contestants Take On The Hakaishin?

Post by Jack Bz » Wed May 20, 2020 5:52 am

Peach wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 5:16 am
shadd21 wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 8:33 pm
Peach wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 12:12 pm
I just realized something. Whis said Goku and Vegeta could give Beerus a run for his money if they worked together.

...7 of the Destroyers working together couldn't touch Beerus.

Maybe a lot of them really are weak.
Was this in the manga?
Yep. I'm not sure what the exact chapter was, but the exhibition match is between all the destroyers (except the three or four universes excluded from the tournament).

They all charge Beerus at once. None of them can even touch him.
Pretty sure Whis only says Goku and Vegeta together could take on Beerus in the RoF film and not in the manga or anime.

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