I really hate Beerus arc

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I really hate Beerus arc

Post by MCDaveG » Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:45 pm

I have started this topic, as during recent discussions the whole Super series came back in my memories and how I watched it during the premiere run and remembered, how I actually hated the Beerus arc and hate it even more when I think back...

I really like Super. GT left me on sore note as a kid, as it was kind of depressing, but Super is the sequel that I've dreamed about kind of and never thought will get. I liked Battle of Gods a lot and as Super was announced as actually rehashing the story so that the series will work as standalone without the new Z Movies, I was enthusiastic... The format of weekly series allows you to expand the story and give you more than the feature format does. Sure, I wanted the new stuff, but I was really looking forward on how they will handle things...
The first two slice of life episodes made me interested and kinda enjoy the series, besides there being long cheap unimated still shots at times and some weird design choices (the snakeskin looks bad).
You get used to anime being produced on low-budget so there are some low models and cheaper animations at times right?
God! I will never forget Episode 5...

And not only this, but the arc actually having less content than the extended and even cinema cut of the movie... One episode being just about Oolong doing rock paper scissors contest, which was only a smaller gag in the movie... Pilaf not having explained why he is a kid again... missing Sayaman antics - basically everything that was fun in the movie, was missing. Only the transformation scene was little more epic...
But really, when rewatching the series, this arc should be skipped in the favor of the movie (except for those weird and obvious shoehorned cameos), as being a first bigger DB project in ages, they really pumped up their creativity.

I like Ressurection F actually more in Super, not animation and art-wise, as it looks horrible at times and the choreography is not so good, but Ginyu, Gotenks and lot of stuff added that wasn't in the movie, it was actually what I was expecting from the Beerus arc as well...

And how do you like the first arc of Super in retrospect?
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Re: I really hate Beerus arc

Post by Matches Malone » Fri Jun 05, 2020 10:24 pm

I think it and the RF arc are terrible. The only good thing to come out of the retellings is the 27th episode, as it vastly improves on RF's rushed ending.

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Re: I really hate Beerus arc

Post by PremiumSalt » Fri Jun 05, 2020 10:50 pm

The first two arcs are an absolute joke, and the insistence from certain people that you have to watch them instead of the movies because of some minor nitpicky details that vaguely effect later episodes is perplexing to me.
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Re: I really hate Beerus arc

Post by Matches Malone » Fri Jun 05, 2020 10:57 pm

PremiumSalt wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 10:50 pm
The insistence from certain people that you have to watch them instead of the movies because of some minor nitpicky details that vaguely effect later episodes is perplexing to me.
The easiest way to drive potential fans away from Super would be to have them start with those terrible retellings. Why anyone would recommend watching a version that's worse than the other in every way is something I'll never understand.

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Re: I really hate Beerus arc

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:53 pm

It's weird how I feel about that arc because I just love the first few episodes with the guys going about their lives, some callbacks to the previous arc (Vegeta's promise, Satan's gratitude), some great humour with Mr. Satan, and even more screentime for Beerus who really deserved it and delivered.

On the bad side, a lot was changed from the movie, and I don't know why. Why was it changed for something else instead of expanded upon? like seeing Goku's reaction to Vegeta's bingo dance from afar. It's the same story, why change it? just tell it from a different point of view.
The final fight with Beerus was also changed, and nothing really new was learned from the movie, besides the Z sword thing which isn't very interesting. Not to mention episodes like Goten and Trunks fighting a snake in a pond shouldn't have happened.
What could've been an expansion of BoG became a parallel version of it and that goes for RoF too, although I guess in that case the anime tried to fix an already awful movie.

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Re: I really hate Beerus arc

Post by Yuli Ban » Sat Jun 06, 2020 12:45 am

The fact Super started with those two is what led to the series being so maligned up until roughly midway through the Tournament of Power, right around the time we got to see Jiren in action. It's not that Super was particularly good or anything, but I think we'd perceive it better if episode 1 were mixed into episode 28, even if nothing else were changed (though trust me, a lot still needs to be changed to make it better).
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Re: I really hate Beerus arc

Post by DragonBallFoodie » Sat Jun 06, 2020 3:24 am

You hate the arc as portrayed in Super, as opposed to the film.

And I agree the film has the better, more streamlined version.
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Re: I really hate Beerus arc

Post by MCDaveG » Sat Jun 06, 2020 5:55 am

DragonBallFoodie wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 3:24 am
You hate the arc as portrayed in Super, as opposed to the film.

And I agree the film has the better, more streamlined version.
Yeah, it is not like I hate the overall arc. I actually liked the movie a lot when it came out and thought it is perfect continuation of the show.
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Re: I really hate Beerus arc

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Sat Jun 06, 2020 7:46 am

Rewatching the Battle of Gods movie, I realised it has such a breakneck pace, there's very little wasted momentum and even though most of Beerus's threat is told and not shown, there's still a great sense of tension. On one hand, the Super retelling, if it absolutely had to be made, had the potential to flesh out a few points like Beerus's initial interactions at the party (which is told through a still frame montage in the film) and it did that quite well, to its credit. But over time, it accumulates to almost Z levels of overstretched, fillerific nonsense like the Oolong roshambo match being dragged out for a whole episode, ruining the movie's joke completely.

Some changes in the anime version were kind of cool, like changing the setting from Capsule Corp to a cruiseship was an interesting choice that adds to the sense of isolation and freedom for Beerus to potentially go wild. Revising Beerus's character to make him more malicious and giving him a new establishing moment by blowing up half a planet was also somewhat interesting and I guess you could argue that it gave way for him to develop into the friendlier character from the movies over the course of the show, but it downplays the aspects of Beerus that made him so fun, unique and inscrutable to begin with.

However, I feel that things really fell apart with the Resurrection F arc, which is universally worse than an already mediocre movie, making its existence that much more pointless. I can definitely understand why some people just gave up and denounced the show at this point because the quality control just wasn't there and it's inexcusable, even if the later original arcs were a radical improvement.
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Re: I really hate Beerus arc

Post by Thani » Sat Jun 06, 2020 2:51 pm

Honestly? The movie was overall better, but the extra scenes added to the series were interesting. The actual Battle of Gods was cool (except the whole "screaming dragons" thing), the expansion in characterization to Beerus, the straight lie that Beerus actually fought Goku seriously.

But again, the movie was better.

RoF is a mixed bag to me. The fight scenes were obviously atrocious and uninspired, although I enjoyed the fact that Freeza was FLOORING Goku at first. It served to illustrate much better his own failings and Goku's critique ("You rushed to Earth as soon as you got that form. Bad move"). The training episodes with Whis, however, were much needed. Showing how SSj Blue came to be was awesome.

But, once again, the movie was unquestionably better. No small feat, either, since the movie was such a let down for me.

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Re: I really hate Beerus arc

Post by Miracles » Sat Jun 06, 2020 3:36 pm

BoG movie > BoG adapted TV series arc.

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Re: I really hate Beerus arc

Post by Yuli Ban » Sat Jun 06, 2020 5:10 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 7:46 am
I can definitely understand why some people just gave up and denounced the show at this point because the quality control just wasn't there and it's inexcusable, even if the later original arcs were a radical improvement.
Getting a bit off topic, but Super really sabotaged itself. The first inkling of potential didn't come until episode 39— most series would've been canceled long before that point. The fact that the Universe 6 Tournament arc was also pretty atrocious can't be overlooked. I have loads of saved clips from that arc (extended clips, not just 5-second passing shots that could be taken out of context— though there's plenty of that too) that make it look like the show was some Taiwanese bootleg version of Dragon Ball Z from the late '90s. Really, really embarrassing stuff. And that's probably what gets me: they had nearly 30 episodes to get better directors and a higher quality team, and somehow they managed to make the worst of all.
If the movie retellings were just biding time as filler so that they could get everything ready, then it still wouldn't have been ideal by any stretch but at least it would've been understandable why they didn't put much effort into it early on.
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Re: I really hate Beerus arc

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Sat Jun 06, 2020 6:24 pm

Yuli Ban wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 5:10 pm
LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Sat Jun 06, 2020 7:46 am
I can definitely understand why some people just gave up and denounced the show at this point because the quality control just wasn't there and it's inexcusable, even if the later original arcs were a radical improvement.
Getting a bit off topic, but Super really sabotaged itself. The first inkling of potential didn't come until episode 39— most series would've been canceled long before that point. The fact that the Universe 6 Tournament arc was also pretty atrocious can't be overlooked. I have loads of saved clips from that arc (extended clips, not just 5-second passing shots that could be taken out of context— though there's plenty of that too) that make it look like the show was some Taiwanese bootleg version of Dragon Ball Z from the late '90s. Really, really embarrassing stuff. And that's probably what gets me: they had nearly 30 episodes to get better directors and a higher quality team, and somehow they managed to make the worst of all.
If the movie retellings were just biding time as filler so that they could get everything ready, then it still wouldn't have been ideal by any stretch but at least it would've been understandable why they didn't put much effort into it early on.
Absolutely, the word "embarrassing" describes it well. As an overall fan of Super, it can be annoying to see people rag on it incessantly sometimes, but then you remember that these arcs exist. It's amazing how brand power can help even a trash show stay on air much longer than a new IP.

It irritates me how some decent shows sometimes intentionally sell themselves short in the first couple episodes because the writers/studios/animators whatever aren't confident for whatever reason. The first few episodes of a show, the first few lines of a novel, they're supposed to grab the viewer/reader instantly. There's a new show on Netflix called The Midnight Gospel and it's hard to recommend because even though I find it decent, the first few episodes are weaksauce. Except whereas most shows can get away with two or three bad early episodes, Super got away with far too many.
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Re: I really hate Beerus arc

Post by MCDaveG » Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:15 am

Frankly, Super got it’s ground around the Tournament of Power and since then, it had tons of cool moments... I kinda liked the story of Trunks arc except for the weird ending, but animation/art-wise, there was this one fight only with Goku, Trunks and Vegeta were duking it against Goku Black and Immortal Zamasu, but outside of that, it was just few moments like Goku hero landing on ground among terribly done rest...
Also, the background was cheap if you notice... the world started to feel bigger and better designed in ToP arc and I really enjoyed Goku and Krillin fighting on top of office building in rain. That for me was the moment the series caught on with Z and GT production quality. But 6th Universe Tournament had such boring setting! I read the manga after that and was seriously angry about that laziness.

One of the moments I really liked in ToP arc was Gohan fighting the Namekian with series of moves that he got it as his Ultimate in DB Legends mobile game.
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Re: I really hate Beerus arc

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:09 am

The BoG retelling completely shits on the piece of crap that is the movie version. The main thing is they fixed Beerus, in the movie they constantly just told us he is this super scary god but in the retelling we saw him doing GoD things before he even went to Kaio's planet! That already adds more tension and weight than the theatrical version ever hoped too. Then we see Beerus be actually scary, that one moment when Goku got comfortable Beerus was like nah and started wailing on him! That still gives me goosebumps and the moment when Beerus cuts through Goku and camera pans up to Beerus as Goku falls! That is how you do a f**king antagonist! We also got that fantastic speech from Goku in the water!

SSG, we got to see Goku get used to it's power, it became less of a MacGuffin like the shitty movie made it out. And the action in the retelling actually lasted more 10 f**king seconds! We had cuts in the retelling that were better than the movie (apart from Shida's cut nothing in the movie was great) and we also had some well directed episodes unlike the movie which was poorly directed. Also no horrific CG!

Yes we have the rock paper scissors and the silly ritual but positives outweigh the negatives by far for me. BoG arc is my fav arc of DBS period.

(I honestly think BoG movie with Moro arc is the worst thing that has the name DB attached even more than Evolution).

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Re: I really hate Beerus arc

Post by Mister_Popo » Sun Jun 07, 2020 2:35 pm

Toriayams version are still the movies, so i guess we could call those movies the most "canonical" version of the events.
The only problem with those is, they are incomplete as a fundation for the rest of the anime.
If you only watch the movies and skip straight to anime U6-arc, then you are missing some nice extras and even essential information for understanding the rest of the story:

- Beerus feels more like a trait during the BOG-arc as the involvement with King Vegeta / Vegetas past was more explored, and the anime allowed for more tension build-up and time to present Beerus being the big antagonist.
- Whis training was necessary to understand the rest of the story, as the movie basically only showed the end result of the training, and there were some really fun moments on Beerus planet that weren't present in the movies (changing Beerus' bed sheets without waking him up etc).
- some rare scenes felt like nice additives, such as Gokus first Blue transformation (better than in the movie), Goku healing in the water thanks to God-ki and regaining battle spirit, the lightheart moments during the battle with Beerus, the dragon battle in space etc ...

I don't think the BOF- and ROF-arcs are really that bad, despite the fact some episodes have bad animation quality (although the BOG anime fight has descent animation, the really bad animated episodes 5, 24 and 25 people always tend to pick at as a reference for the complete arcs, but that's not entirely justified in my opinion).

"Not that bad" basically means "trying to look at it from the bright side, its execution is far from optimal, but it could even have been a lot worse looking at the circumstances in which Supers production began". "Really bad" would have been a dozen more episodes like 5, 24 or 25.

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Re: I really hate Beerus arc

Post by WittyUsername » Sun Jun 07, 2020 3:14 pm

A big problem I always had with the BoG retelling was how much more serious it was compared to the movie. To me, part of the charm of BoG was how laid back it was compared to previous movies in the franchise. Sure, there were still world ending stakes, but things never felt particularly serious or grim, and Beerus was goofy and likable enough as a character to be different from your typical Dragon Ball villain. Of course, the slow pacing and choppy animation didn’t exactly help either.

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Re: I really hate Beerus arc

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Sun Jun 07, 2020 5:58 pm

Resurrection F's arc, to its credit, tried to make something legible out of a structureless movie by including more relevant scenes like Goku and Vegeta's training under Whis which is really hard to contextualise in the movie - there was no clear development from Battle of Gods for Goku and 'Geets to be that chummy with the gods that quickly. I liked some of the preliminary stuff before the Beerus arc like Goku's interactions with Goten on the farm, but I didn't think Goku's reasonings for being on King Kai's planet needed explaining that desperately - we know Goku's a huge trainaholic.

However, with the Resurrection F arc especially, I think the unnecessary change far outweigh the positive ones in my opinion. The overall detraction in artwork and animation, the addition of Gotenks for no reason (there's a quick gag about Frieza mistaking Kid Trunks for Future Trunks which amounts to nothing... even FighterZ does more with it), the Tagoma and Ginyu shenanigans, and the fact that my boy Jaco got his role reduced. The last one is personal bias, but Jaco's presence in the fight and his creative takedowns of Frieza's soldiers were a big highlight of the movie for me. A lot of changes exemplify why they were kept out of the movie in the first place. Shenron having three wishes instead of two adds nothing. People moaned about Tagoma being irrelevant in the movie, but his expanded role in the anime didn't make him any more interesting.

EDIT: Oh shit, not to mention Piccolo's death. That added soooo much.

There's another one that might be more controversial, but I don't care for the climactic fights being dragged out in the anime, even Vegeta vs. Frieza. Vegeta succinctly beating Frieza down with a few punches to demonstrate how their dynamic has completely changed was enough for me.
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Re: I really hate Beerus arc

Post by Yuli Ban » Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:25 pm

MCDaveG wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:15 am
Frankly, Super got it’s ground around the Tournament of Power
In other words, it took 2/3 of the entire series for it to find its footing, and 3/4 to rise to any real level of quality.
Sort of like the Star Wars Prequels. Any TV show that lasts for 131 episodes and 3/4 of them are subpar with only momentary flashes of brilliance would've been considered a network disgrace regardless of how well it ended (and Super didn't even end well; its ending was a hot, rushed mess that felt like it wasn't supposed to be an ending at all).


But now we're just off topic.
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Re: I really hate Beerus arc

Post by Matches Malone » Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:57 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 5:58 pm
I don't care for the climactic fights being dragged out in the anime, even Vegeta vs. Frieza.
If you're going to build up a rematch between Vegeta and the man who not only killed him, but completely humiliated him, then I expect it to be more than 2 punches and a kick. I wouldn't care about anyone else getting treated like that (such as Frost being taken out with one hit), but this is Freeza we're talking about, you don't rush something like that.
Yuli Ban wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:25 pm
Any TV show that lasts for 131 episodes and 3/4 of them are subpar with only momentary flashes of brilliance would've been considered a network disgrace regardless of how well it ended.
No show without DB's brand recognition would've lasted that long if it started it out so badly. What surprises me isn't the fact that it lasted that long, but the countless fans saying its quality was just as good as the original DB/Z.

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