So is this whole Moro arc basically the, "Garlic Jr. saga" of Super?

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So is this whole Moro arc basically the, "Garlic Jr. saga" of Super?

Post by precita » Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:25 pm

As of now we have no idea if the Moro arc will ever be adapted to anime form or if it'll remain exclusive to the manga. However let's pretend they actually do adapt it to the anime if/when Super ever returns.

I can't help but feel it's basically Super's equivalent to what the Garlic Jr. saga was to DBZ. Not in terms of story (obviously they're nothing alike), but in the terms that they were not written by Toriyama, but it's a separate arc about a villain created that has nothing to do with the main story and it feels like it's being shoehorned into the narrative to "buy some time" to whenever Toriyama can write the next arc.

Obviously during DBZ the Garlic Jr. saga was created so Toriyama can get further ahead into the Cell arc before the anime overtook it, but now it feels like this Moro arc in the manga is to give Dragonball fans some new material to consume while the anime is on indefinite hiatus.

I can't help but feel the Moro arc if it's adapted will basically feel irrelevant to whatever the next main arc Toriyama comes up with, similar to Garlic Jr. And people will sit there years and decades from now debating if it's "canon" or not.

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Re: So is this whole Moro arc basically the, "Garlic Jr. saga" of Super?

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:03 pm

Nope.
  1. Vegeta is facing the consequences of his past.
  2. Merus, an Angel, has been introduced and trained Gokuu.
  3. Gokuu took a new step in getting closer to Migatte no Goku'i.
  4. Vegeta learned a new technique, implying that he can now separate Piccolo from Nail.
  5. Toei isn't just going to leave a story arc un-adapted into the cartoon side of the franchise.
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Re: So is this whole Moro arc basically the, "Garlic Jr. saga" of Super?

Post by Kagari » Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:44 am

Nah, Garlic Jr. was actually fun. Moro is dreadfully boring and well past its expiration date.

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Re: So is this whole Moro arc basically the, "Garlic Jr. saga" of Super?

Post by BWri » Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:46 am

Kagari wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:44 am
Nah, Garlic Jr. was actually fun. Moro is dreadfully boring and well past its expiration date.
I like both! They each add something a little different that other villains don't. Garlic Jr. being literally immortal and having ties to Kami and past Kamis. And Moro being a threatening magic user. I like the DB villains that are more steeped in mysticism like these two.
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Re: So is this whole Moro arc basically the, "Garlic Jr. saga" of Super?

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:42 pm

Toriyama isn't the writer of the Moro arc? I thought he was still writing the story outline and Toyotarou was doing the rest.

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Re: So is this whole Moro arc basically the, "Garlic Jr. saga" of Super?

Post by Alruneia » Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:03 pm

I have to agree with JulieYBM's post, at least partially. Goku can now access UI Sign at will, which is an important step of his journey to fully unlocking UI. Filler arcs very rarely allow for this kind of permanent development. Vegeta's new technique could end up being considered "too specific" and never appear again, which would be typical of filler, but it would be difficult to discard Goku's ability to go UI Sign whenever once this arc ends. (It would also be strange for Toei to skip over the Moro arc once/if the anime returns, but this is the case regardless of Toriyama's involvement, so it doesn't matter too much.)
UpFromTheSkies wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:42 pm
Toriyama isn't the writer of the Moro arc? I thought he was still writing the story outline and Toyotarou was doing the rest.
It isn't fully known how involved with the Moro arc Toriyama actually is.
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Re: So is this whole Moro arc basically the, "Garlic Jr. saga" of Super?

Post by theherodjl » Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:35 pm

I would like to note that because the obvious characters who could end this arc in an instant(Beerus, Whis, Merus using his actual Angel abilities, Broly, Vegetto/Gogeta) have been deliberately kept out, it gives the arc a similar feeling of danger that the Garlic Jr arc had in removing Goku & Vegeta from the situation. Moro could definitely have been defeated already if the heavy hitters were allowed to make an appearance or let loose. However, plot convenience has prevented them from getting involved and so the characters present simply are left to handle the situation purely with what they have.
Does anybody believe that Beerus wouldn't just "Hakai!" Moro out of existence if there was any food involved?
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Re: So is this whole Moro arc basically the, "Garlic Jr. saga" of Super?

Post by Peach » Sun Jun 21, 2020 1:54 am

It is the Garlic Jr saga in the sense that it's the worst written saga in Dragon Ball Super so far.

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Re: So is this whole Moro arc basically the, "Garlic Jr. saga" of Super?

Post by Matches Malone » Sun Jun 21, 2020 3:24 am

UpFromTheSkies wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:42 pm
Toriyama isn't the writer of the Moro arc? I thought he was still writing the story outline and Toyotarou was doing the rest.
Both Toriyama and Toyotaro are working together on it, which is more or less the same role Toriyama has been playing since he returned to the franchise.

In terms of the topic's question, the answer is an obvious no.

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Re: So is this whole Moro arc basically the, "Garlic Jr. saga" of Super?

Post by mute_proxy » Sun Jun 21, 2020 3:32 am

UpFromTheSkies wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:42 pm
Toriyama isn't the writer of the Moro arc? I thought he was still writing the story outline and Toyotarou was doing the rest.
We don't know the extent of his involvement. Toyotaro has said they were "working together" ~2 years ago. Could be a little or a lot of Toriyama. It certainly doesn't feel like there's a lot though.

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Re: So is this whole Moro arc basically the, "Garlic Jr. saga" of Super?

Post by Peach » Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:08 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 3:24 am
UpFromTheSkies wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:42 pm
Toriyama isn't the writer of the Moro arc? I thought he was still writing the story outline and Toyotarou was doing the rest.
Both Toriyama and Toyotaro are working together on it, which is more or less the same role Toriyama has been playing since he returned to the franchise.

In terms of the topic's question, the answer is an obvious no.
It doesn't feel like Toriyama is that involved honestly. There's so much obligatory fan service. Vegeta being incredibly on the nose about wanting to protect namekians for instance. The attention to detail about explaining the difference between the Toei Yard Rats and the Dragon Ball Online Yard Rats. None of that stuff strikes me as his style. I'll be surprised if he's anymore involved in the writing than Kishimoto is in Boruto now.

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Re: So is this whole Moro arc basically the, "Garlic Jr. saga" of Super?

Post by Matches Malone » Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:15 am

Peach wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:08 am
It doesn't feel like Toriyama is that involved honestly. There's so much obligatory fan service.
Toyotaro said a number of the ideas presented here are his, and when it comes to fan service, Toriyama just gave us Broly. You can't get more fan service than that.

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Re: So is this whole Moro arc basically the, "Garlic Jr. saga" of Super?

Post by Peach » Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:32 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:15 am
Peach wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:08 am
It doesn't feel like Toriyama is that involved honestly. There's so much obligatory fan service.
Toyotaro said a number of the ideas presented here are his, and when it comes to fan service, Toriyama just gave us Broly. You can't get more fan service than that.
Ehh.. Still. He's never been one to worry about the little details like this. I'll be shocked if he did anything beyond the basic premise, a few designs here and there, and role as an editor/producer (approving things and suggesting things).

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Re: So is this whole Moro arc basically the, "Garlic Jr. saga" of Super?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:35 am

It can't be filler. It's basically a battle against an all-devouring monster for the fate of the entire universe. It's too "grand" of an arc to simply be skipped. Like angels are actually getting involved in this arc, as a writer how can you ignore that?
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Re: So is this whole Moro arc basically the, "Garlic Jr. saga" of Super?

Post by mute_proxy » Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:45 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:35 am
It can't be filler. It's basically a battle against an all-devouring monster for the fate of the entire universe. It's too "grand" of an arc to simply be skipped. Like angels are actually getting involved in this arc, as a writer how can you ignore that?
If Merus sacrifices himself to kill Moro, there will be zero consequences or loose ends. They'd "mourn" for a moment, and get over it the next. As a writer you could ignore it, they've been doing it almost every arc in Super.

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Re: So is this whole Moro arc basically the, "Garlic Jr. saga" of Super?

Post by Kinokima » Sun Jun 21, 2020 1:04 pm

I believe it was said that Toriyama came up with the Merus angel angle

But the Vegeta redemption thing feels way more like Toyo to me.

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Re: So is this whole Moro arc basically the, "Garlic Jr. saga" of Super?

Post by Matches Malone » Sun Jun 21, 2020 1:10 pm

Kinokima wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 1:04 pm
I believe it was said that Toriyama came up with the Merus angel angle
He did:

"Toyotarо̄ describes the planning of the arc as cooperative, and attributes some as-of-yet-unrevealed plans regarding a new character’s secret to Toriyama".

I could be wrong, but it seems like Merus was originally going to just be a galactic patrol member, before Toriyama decided to make him an angle. Apart from that, Toriyama is involved in this arc just as much as he was the previous ones, as those were also cooperatively written.

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Re: So is this whole Moro arc basically the, "Garlic Jr. saga" of Super?

Post by Dragon Wukong » Sun Jun 21, 2020 2:13 pm

Yeah Toriyama is involved with the arc.

Honestly, I get it's somewhat divisive, but I don't understand people trying to relegate an arc that has several important plot/world-building details as "filler." Goku learning to tap into UI Sign at will is an extremely important development for future arcs, and Vegeta's new technique may be as well, given it's seeming versatility and how relevant said technique would have been had he learned it in the past. If it was filler it'd be like if Goku learned the Spirit Bomb in the Garlic Jr. arc or something.

It just seems silly to try and hope that this arc "doesn't matter" in some way.

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Re: So is this whole Moro arc basically the, "Garlic Jr. saga" of Super?

Post by Matches Malone » Sun Jun 21, 2020 2:34 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 2:13 pm
It just seems silly to try and hope that this arc "doesn't matter" in some way.
When someone says this arc doesn't matter, what they're really saying is they just don't like it, and thus it doesn't matter. Story wise, it's just as important as any other arc in Super, someone liking it or not is irrelevant to that fact.

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Re: So is this whole Moro arc basically the, "Garlic Jr. saga" of Super?

Post by WittyUsername » Sun Jun 21, 2020 2:52 pm

Is the Moro arc really delving into the Vegeta redemption angle? I stopped keeping up with it, because I just couldn’t stay invested, but if so, that’s actually somewhat surprising to me. The manga version of DBS has generally been pretty barebones, with the lion’s share of the more “complex” themes and ideas being relegated to the anime (although I don’t think the anime handled them especially well). Still, I did always want the series to actually give Vegeta some consequence for his past actions, so that does sound interesting.

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