So is this whole Moro arc basically the, "Garlic Jr. saga" of Super?

[Kinokima]

Is the Moro arc really delving into the Vegeta redemption angle? I stopped keeping up with it, because I just couldn’t stay invested, but if so, that’s actually somewhat surprising to me. The manga version of DBS has generally been pretty barebones, with the lion’s share of the more “complex” themes and ideas being relegated to the anime (although I don’t think the anime handled them especially well). Still, I did always want the series to actually give Vegeta some consequence for his past actions, so that does sound interesting.

Yes but certainly not in the complex way you are thinking of.

[WittyUsername]

Is the Moro arc really delving into the Vegeta redemption angle? I stopped keeping up with it, because I just couldn’t stay invested, but if so, that’s actually somewhat surprising to me. The manga version of DBS has generally been pretty barebones, with the lion’s share of the more “complex” themes and ideas being relegated to the anime (although I don’t think the anime handled them especially well). Still, I did always want the series to actually give Vegeta some consequence for his past actions, so that does sound interesting.

Yes but certainly not in the complex way you are thinking of.

How have they been handling it?

[Kinokima]

Is the Moro arc really delving into the Vegeta redemption angle? I stopped keeping up with it, because I just couldn’t stay invested, but if so, that’s actually somewhat surprising to me. The manga version of DBS has generally been pretty barebones, with the lion’s share of the more “complex” themes and ideas being relegated to the anime (although I don’t think the anime handled them especially well). Still, I did always want the series to actually give Vegeta some consequence for his past actions, so that does sound interesting.

Yes but certainly not in the complex way you are thinking of.

How have they been handling it?

There are no consequences for Vegeta’s past actions but he still feels guilty. Though there isn’t a lot of focus on it just a scene here and there

[WittyUsername]

Yes but certainly not in the complex way you are thinking of.

How have they been handling it?

There are no consequences for Vegeta’s past actions but he still feels guilty. Though there isn’t a lot of focus on it just a scene here and there

Well, that’s better than nothing.

[precita]

If the anime does adapt this story, I imagine it's going to be changed anyway drastically for the anime adaption. Just look at how different the tournament of power was in the manga than the anime, all the fights were done differently until the late stuff with Goku/Jiren.

So if you don't like it in the manga, who knows, maybe the anime could handle it better if/when it gets adapted.

[Kinokima]

How have they been handling it?

There are no consequences for Vegeta’s past actions but he still feels guilty. Though there isn’t a lot of focus on it just a scene here and there

Well, that’s better than nothing.

Yeah what’s there is definitely nice. I just didn’t want you to go in thinking there was a complex exploration of his feelings about his past. Because that’s definitely misleading

[Dragon Wukong]

If the anime does adapt this story, I imagine it's going to be changed anyway drastically for the anime adaption. Just look at how different the tournament of power was in the manga than the anime, all the fights were done differently until the late stuff with Goku/Jiren.

So if you don't like it in the manga, who knows, maybe the anime could handle it better if/when it gets adapted.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. A large part of the anime being handled the way it was was due to the fact there was nothing to adapt besides Toriyama's outline. But this isn't even an arc outlined by Toriyama, this is the first arc that's mostly Toyotaro's story, with the villain developed by him as well. I wouldn't be surprised if some additions, such as the anime's depiction of SSBE or SSBKK made it in, but I doubt the actual story would be made very different.

[SupremeKai25]

It can't be filler. It's basically a battle against an all-devouring monster for the fate of the entire universe. It's too "grand" of an arc to simply be skipped. Like angels are actually getting involved in this arc, as a writer how can you ignore that?

If Merus sacrifices himself to kill Moro, there will be zero consequences or loose ends. They'd "mourn" for a moment, and get over it the next. As a writer you could ignore it, they've been doing it almost every arc in Super.

Not exactly. I imagine you have the Future Trunks arc in your mind. You wouldn't be able to completely skip it, because otherwise you wouldn't understand why there are two Zeno in the ToP arc, nor why they are doing an Exhibition Match (they did it to show Future Zeno how tournaments work).

So even if the arc doesn't end up having a lot of emotional impact on the protagonists, the world and groups around them would still change in some way.

[Mnich]

This arc doesn't feel like filler at all. Goku is progressing with Ultra Instinct, Vegeta is atoning for his sins of slaughtering Namekians who weren't revived and Uub was mentioned to have God ki.
All of this is pretty important to the story and character development.

[Lord Beerus]

So far, it does feel like filler. Goku has made zero progress with Ultra Instinct, Vegeta developed a new technique which is cripplingly specific and the rest of supporting have just been... there.

[Dragon Wukong]

So far, it does feel like filler. Goku has made zero progress with Ultra Instinct, Vegeta developed a new technique which is cripplingly specific and the rest of supporting have just been... there.

For one, Goku can use Ultra Instinct Omen freely, which he couldn't before this arc in the Tournament of Power or in DBS Broly. That's a major advancement, and denial of such is to be deliberately ignorant of the importance that can have in future arcs. Unless you want to suggest Goku will somehow need to struggle to tap into that power in the future despite training with Merus.

Secondly, Vegeta's technique isn't really that specific. We see Pybara use it to drain his energy earlier in the arc, to the point he's left struggling to stand, and Vegeta himself uses it to drain Hatska of his energy as well, who collapsed into a pile. Two fine examples of the technique working on an opponent who didn't absorb or fuse.

Not to even mention the fact that the particular usefulness forced spirit fission has against fusions and absorption would've been extremely useful against Cell, Buu, Zamasu, and Kefla. Hardly "cripplingly specific" given how commonplace techniques like that are in this series. You really think there's never going to be an opponent that uses fusion or absorption again in the future?

[Lord Beerus]

For one, Goku can use Ultra Instinct Omen freely, which he couldn't before this arc in the Tournament of Power or in DBS Broly. That's a major advancement, and denial of such is to be deliberately ignorant of the importance that can have in future arcs. Unless you want to suggest Goku will somehow need to struggle to tap into that power in the future despite training with Merus.

Goku was able to use Ultra Instinct at will in the Tournament Of Power by his second attempt at tapping into the form. Part of the reason he attained the complete version of Ultra Instinct was due to him getting over the obstacle of Ultra Instinct Sign. The whole reason of him training with Meerus was so that he tap into the complete version of the form and control it better.

Secondly, Vegeta's technique isn't really that specific. We see Pybara use it to drain his energy earlier in the arc, to the point he's left struggling to stand, and Vegeta himself uses it to drain Hatska of his energy as well, who collapsed into a pile. Two fine examples of the technique working on an opponent who didn't absorb or fuse.

Not to even mention the fact that the particular usefulness forced spirit fission has against fusions and absorption would've been extremely useful against Cell, Buu, Zamasu, and Kefla. Hardly "cripplingly specific" given how commonplace techniques like that are in this series. You really think there's never going to be an opponent that uses fusion or absorption again in the future?

I'm not ruling out any kind future opponent being fusion or absorption based. The problem is Dragon Ball has a bad track record when it comes to treating unique techniques. What Dragon Ball usually does in these kind of scenarios is just have a character who is much stronger than the opponent using the unique ability just no-sell them or counter them with brute force. I mean, that literally just happened in the recent chapter of the Super manga. Moro just became much stronger than before and beat the shit out of Vegeta, completely disregarding the technique he used beforehand.

[Dragon Wukong]

Goku was able to use Ultra Instinct at will in the Tournament Of Power by his second attempt at tapping into the form. Part of the reason he attained the complete version of Ultra Instinct was due to him getting over the obstacle of Ultra Instinct Sign. The whole reason of him training with Meerus was so that he tap into the complete version of the form and control it better.

The first time Goku used it, he flickered out of it against his will, despite him finally grasping the principles behind the technique/form. The second time was actually just what Merus described. He wasn't just using it "at will". Goku managed to keep his composure in the life or death situation of the Tournament of Power, "achieving self-control in the face of a jarring shock to [his] emotions," which was Android 17's supposed death in the tournament (and Goku's dialogue after 17's "sacrifice" as he taps into Omen supports this. Though, if I recall Viz translated that part incorrectly. The japanese dialogue is something along the lines of how he won't get caught up in his feelings or something.) Even then, he wasn't able to maintain Ultra Instinct. Being able to ACTUALLY tap into Ultra Instinct Sign, whenever he wants, for AS LONG as his stamina is able to maintain it, is actually a big step forward in Goku's ability to use the form/technique.

I'm not ruling out any kind future opponent being fusion or absorption based. The problem is Dragon Ball has a bad track record when it comes to treating unique techniques. What Dragon Ball usually does in these kind of scenarios is just have a character who is much stronger than the opponent using the unique ability just no-sell them or counter them with brute force. I mean, that literally just happened in the recent chapter of the Super manga. Moro just became much stronger than before and beat the shit out of Vegeta, completely disregarding the technique he used beforehand.

I'd wait another month before suggesting Moro can just undo Spirit Fission. Moro seems to have used his full power to knock out Vegeta before he could use the technique again, and it's awfully convenient that Moro's new form just happens to be a fusion/absorption of another character, right in the same chapter where Vegeta just conveniently mentions that he has the power to split apart fusions or absorptions. So again, might wanna hold your tongue a little longer on that.

[The Undying]

Between all the worldbuilding and expansion of "canon" lore, a new Angel character, that apparently temporary introduction of Grand Supreme Kai, Goku tapping into UI at will, Vegeta learning an anti-fusion move, Vegeta getting more development, and the characters in general reaching new heights, there's way too much going on to consider this thing a filler arc. It might even be the most packed DBS story by far.

However, the writing quality could be considered akin to filler. I don't necessarily agree with that assessment (although I do take issue with a lot of stuff) but as divisive as the arc has been, it's easy to see why some might come to that conclusion.

For the most part, I'm just along for the ride.

[BWri]

It doesn't feel like Toriyama is that involved honestly. There's so much obligatory fan service.

Toyotaro said a number of the ideas presented here are his, and when it comes to fan service, Toriyama just gave us Broly. You can't get more fan service than that.

Ehh.. Still. He's never been one to worry about the little details like this. I'll be shocked if he did anything beyond the basic premise, a few designs here and there, and role as an editor/producer (approving things and suggesting things).

The new age of writing, when consistency and attention to detail are considered fanservice, what a strange time. I think glossing over the fact that Vegeta murdered a village of Namekians was quite negligent and worse than that, a missed opportunity. I, for one, am glad Toyotaro (I'm pretty sure it was his idea) decided to address it. That act and the lack of any sort of remorse, punishment, or even condemnation from the other characters has kept me from being a Vegeta fan for years. Him addressing this and at least trying to make amends for it has brought me a new appreciation for the character. What's even better is it's another much needed layer of character motivation for a character I've considered pretty stagnant for a while now.

[ChronoTwigger]

If something smell like filler, sound as filler, look as filler, to me is a filler.

They PROBABLY have plans for a future DB development or change of tone, so this arc CAN'T introduce game changers.

DragonBall Hyper. Episode One. Chalaheadchala tune.
"While Goku trained to master the new uncanny UltraInstict, Vegeta decided to go for a training journey across the galaxy. Then..." - and that's ALL the Moro arc contribution to the saga.

[Dragon Wukong]

If something smell like filler, sound as filler, look as filler, to me is a filler.

They PROBABLY have plans for a future DB development or change of tone, so this arc CAN'T introduce game changers.

DragonBall Hyper. Episode One. Chalaheadchala tune.
"While Goku trained to master the new uncanny UltraInstict, Vegeta decided to go for a training journey across the galaxy. Then..." - and that's ALL the Moro arc contribution to the saga.

It doesn't smell/sound/look like filler though? This arc has introduced world building, progressed in Goku's training (now being able to use Ultra Instinct as he pleases), introduced an incredibly useful technique, and revealed that the Grand Supreme Kai still lives on in Buu.

What part of the arc seems like filler?

[pepd]

Well, there is definitely Toriyama involvement, new characters, character development and universe expansion, so if that's enough for you, no; but if you mean consequences that makes the arc absolutely unskippable and impossible to replace with a narrator summary to understand later arcs, will have to wait for the arc to finish.

[ChronoTwigger]

This arc has introduced world building, progressed in Goku's training (now being able to use Ultra Instinct as he pleases), introduced an incredibly useful technique, and revealed that the Grand Supreme Kai still lives on in Buu.

What part of the arc seems like filler?

The elements you're quoting are not exactly game changers, in the sense that those things can be easily introduced in a single line in the future animation. Goku dying or Vegeta having a child is a game changer. As you can't continue the plot by ignoring such elements.
But having Goku mastering UI can be resumed by Piccolo shouting "He mastered such technique!!" the first fight. As for Vegeta tech, well, it work only against "spirit", the fuel of "magic". So, to my knowledge, only against Moro. It's very probable you'll never see it again. OR Vegeta can pull it out of thin air without any episode telling the same background (they came with new techs out of thin air for decades... "I've understood, I have to drain his spirit! Let's do it!" BAM).

But the best evidence is that TOEI is actually minding about a new animation serie (with proper pre-production) and SURELY it will be totally different in logic and setting than Super. So, in the end, they can't let Toyotaro introduce any plot advancement as THEY DON'T KNOW the direction DB should take. But surely is not Super one.
MAYBE they can do a movie out of this arc, or a filler, but if I was a TOEI ceo I'll spend my money into a good staff of writers that find the way to make the show enjoyable again, as evidently they are going in circles creating pitfalls each step, instead of feeding again the mixed feeling Super received ("Super did good!" - Super KILLED DB love for anyone above 20).
Since that moment, DB advancement is "frozen".
And that's why to me this arc look, smell, sound and work as a filler (probably made to milk the franchise a bit with new DB videogames around and a signed contract with Toyotaro for a number of tankobon).

[Dragon Wukong]

The elements you're quoting are not exactly game changers, in the sense that those things can be easily introduced in a single line in the future animation. Goku dying or Vegeta having a child is a game changer. As you can't continue the plot by ignoring such elements.
But having Goku mastering UI can be resumed by Piccolo shouting "He mastered such technique!!" the first fight. As for Vegeta tech, well, it work only against "spirit", the fuel of "magic". So, to my knowledge, only against Moro. It's very probable you'll never see it again. OR Vegeta can pull it out of thin air without any episode telling the same background (they came with new techs out of thin air for decades... "I've understood, I have to drain his spirit! Let's do it!" BAM).

First of all, by your logic Res F, the U6 tournament, and the Future Trunks arc were filler arcs. The only difference before and after Resurrection F is SSB exists, which could've just been brought out in U6. The only difference before and after the FT arc is that there's a second Zeno, and the only difference before and after the U6 tournament is the reveal of Zeno. Your definition of "game changers" don't exist in most DBS arcs.

And Vegeta's technique has the general application of draining energy. This is actually seen in earlier chapters where we see Pybara use the technique on Vegeta, and Vegeta using the technique on Hatska. You also have to consider that a MAJORITY of antagonists in Dragon Ball have used fusion or absorption. Cell, Buu, Zamasu, Kefla, Moro. That's a lot of enemies where Vegeta's technique is useful, and it's jumping the gun to say that the ability to undo such techniques wouldn't be useful in the future given the prominence of such characters.

And if he ever pulled such a technique out of nowhere in a future arc, it'd be seen as an asspull, especially given the fact that this arc devoted a majority of its time to Vegeta learning the technique.

But the best evidence is that TOEI is actually minding about a new animation serie (with proper pre-production) and SURELY it will be totally different in logic and setting than Super. So, in the end, they can't let Toyotaro introduce any plot advancement as THEY DON'T KNOW the direction DB should take. But surely is not Super one.
MAYBE they can do a movie out of this arc, or a filler, but if I was a TOEI ceo I'll spend my money into a good staff of writers that find the way to make the show enjoyable again, as evidently they are going in circles creating pitfalls each step, instead of feeding again the mixed feeling Super received ("Super did good!" - Super KILLED DB love for anyone above 20).
Since that moment, DB advancement is "frozen".
And that's why to me this arc look, smell, sound and work as a filler (probably made to milk the franchise a bit with new DB videogames around and a signed contract with Toyotaro for a number of tankobon).

I mean, for early DBS Toei was actually referencing the DBS manga to make use of scenes. It's safe to presume they only stopped that because the anime overtook the manga. Toyotaro said that things would be going "the other way around" again at some point, where his material comes first and goes back to Toei. We can presume this is that time now.

It sounds like you don't exactly like the manga, and that's ok, but I do feel it should be prudently noted that Toriyama is still involved. In general for the manga makes corrections to dialogue, art, (which is a lot more direct than what he does for the anime's development, mind you) and even though this particular storyline is the first time Toyotaro has taken the reigns in designing the main villain, Toriyama still helped Toyotaro in designing several story beats for the arc. Most notably the secret of Merus as an angel being a mystery of the story.

And likewise, it's very unlikely this story had anything to do with videogames or merch. For one, to my knowledge manga-only material would require a separate license (if the situation for certain gacha games such as Bleach Brave Souls is any indication.) There hasn't been any merch of Moro or Merus or the galactic patrol designs of the main characters. They also have yet to appear in Dokkan Battle or Heroes, which usually aren't shy on jumping the gun with this sort of stuff. Possibly due to licensing issues as I said, but it's likely characters from this arc won't appear in other media until the anime comes back.