So is this whole Moro arc basically the, "Garlic Jr. saga" of Super?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: So is this whole Moro arc basically the, "Garlic Jr. saga" of Super?

Post by emperior » Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:13 am

It’s quite obvious that Toriyama’s involvement is very minimal in this arc.

But I don’t consider this to be anywhere near as filler as Garlic Jr. was.

I would say this qualifies as a semi-filler arc in which the characters have developed a bit but by an indefinite amount. Sure Goku can use Omen at will and Vegeta has a new technique but this kind of progression will feel artificial once Goku achieves the full UI and Vegeta gets something better in the next arc.

The lore is also quite arc specific besides the new Angel stuff from Toriyama.
But thinking about it it’s not even much different from Future Trunks arc, especially the animated version which is even more filler.
that arc was much shorter while from an arc going for 2 years I would expect more lore.
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Re: So is this whole Moro arc basically the, "Garlic Jr. saga" of Super?

Post by Dragon Wukong » Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:16 pm

Given the most recent development (seemingly,) I feel like we can firmly toss out the idea of this arc as "filler."

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Re: So is this whole Moro arc basically the, "Garlic Jr. saga" of Super?

Post by Alruneia » Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:45 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:16 pm
Given the most recent development (seemingly,) I feel like we can firmly toss out the idea of this arc as "filler."
"Gee, I wonder why this thread is suddenly being bumped." :lol:
Obviously, we shouldn't be drawing any conclusions from incomplete spoilers in an arc that's not done yet. As it stands right now, though: Yeah, this one's gonna be hard to just gloss over.
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Re: So is this whole Moro arc basically the, "Garlic Jr. saga" of Super?

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Sat Jul 18, 2020 5:47 pm

The arc has been pretty bad so I don't know if the anime would even bother to animate it and I don't think people would be too fussed if it wasn't.

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Re: So is this whole Moro arc basically the, "Garlic Jr. saga" of Super?

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Re: So is this whole Moro arc basically the, "Garlic Jr. saga" of Super?

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Re: So is this whole Moro arc basically the, "Garlic Jr. saga" of Super?

Post by Jackalope89 » Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:38 pm

UpFromTheSkies wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:17 pm

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Re: So is this whole Moro arc basically the, "Garlic Jr. saga" of Super?

Post by EGonzo » Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:03 pm

It certainly feels like filler. To borrow someone's words, "filler's associated definition is whether or not the show is doing something in which the audience is invested in." To me there is nothing that makes me invested in the arc. There were some spots early on that I liked, but then turned into this "best hits collection" of Dragon Ball's earlier arcs, ending in that generic, godawful new design for Moro.

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Re: So is this whole Moro arc basically the, "Garlic Jr. saga" of Super?

Post by Dragon Wukong » Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:08 am

EGonzo wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:03 pm
It certainly feels like filler. To borrow someone's words, "filler's associated definition is whether or not the show is doing something in which the audience is invested in." To me there is nothing that makes me invested in the arc. There were some spots early on that I liked, but then turned into this "best hits collection" of Dragon Ball's earlier arcs, ending in that generic, godawful new design for Moro.
The associated definition "investment" in the arc refers to if it contributes to the future of the story and investment into it is required for the audience to continue onward, not whether or not that story is enjoyable to the point you're personally invested and engaged with it. To that end, regardless of your personal feelings toward the arc, it's most certainly not filler.

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Re: So is this whole Moro arc basically the, "Garlic Jr. saga" of Super?

Post by DevilKing99 » Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:18 pm

Wow just like on the main DBZ Reddit I see people say this arc is just like the Garlic Jr. arc.

Considering it's over in the next 2-3 chapters, will the next arc have the same feeling but even worst then?

I think it has to do with heavy lack of any character Moro has just like on Reddit, I see people find him to be very boring.

I have not even seen single fan art of any of his henchmen at all.

Toyo has a tremendous problem with characterization, Moro's been the main villain for two years and he barely has any fan art at all.

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Re: So is this whole Moro arc basically the, "Garlic Jr. saga" of Super?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:26 pm

I can see why the villain would drag this arc down to the point that it feels like filler. Moro is such a shallow and generic villain... even the Tournament of Power arc was not this boring because at least there were multiple antagonists, not just Jiren.
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Re: So is this whole Moro arc basically the, "Garlic Jr. saga" of Super?

Post by DevilKing99 » Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:08 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:26 pm
I can see why the villain would drag this arc down to the point that it feels like filler. Moro is such a shallow and generic villain... even the Tournament of Power arc was not this boring because at least there were multiple antagonists, not just Jiren.
Jiren had other characters to play off and not to mention he can get more development in the future.

Not to mention the only other villains to compare Moro to in this era is Black/Zamasu who I see gets fan art all of the time on the DBZ Reddit.

This arc has been going for two years and I have barely seen any fan art of Moro at all anywhere, that is a huge issue if the main villain of two years barely has any fan art all.

The Manga chapters are sticky to the front page on DBZ Reddit, which is literary the biggest dragon ball related place on Reddit and of the biggest anime subreddits in general so it's like people don't see the manga.

And it's not like it's because the manga does not reach people, you count the amount of manga's on two hands that have more global recognition than the DBS manga does

Hell, there are series with not even 7% of the fame the DBS Manga, Yet I see fan art of the villains in those series. The conclusion is the people simply don't care for the villains in this arc.

I haven't even seen a single fan art of any Moro's crew members ever any where.

I keep mentioning fan art because you tell how popular a character is by the amount of fan art there is of them.

Black/Zamasu is legit the most popular DBS era characters besides Broly and Beerus. You can tell by those are like the only DBS era characters that get more fan art than they do.
Last edited by DevilKing99 on Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: So is this whole Moro arc basically the, "Garlic Jr. saga" of Super?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:11 pm

I'm pretty sure Toyotaro already said he purposefully wrote Moro as a pure evil character who cant be reasoned with. It's hard to get invested in a villain when you know they are nothing more than pure evil and have no particular motivation driving them. I'm actually surprised Dragon Ball went back to these generic villains, I was hoping Zamasu set a new standard for future DB villains.

I do agree that fanarts are a good paramater to define how popular a character is. If a character has a lot of fanart on websites like deviantart, pinterest, or reddit, then it's safe to say they are popular. I never really bothered checking how much fanart Moro has, but it's quite sad if he barely has any since he's the main villain of a 2-years long arc. Compare that to Goku Black/Zamasu, who still get ton of fanart 4 years after his arc ended.

Let's be real though, Moro's design kind of sucks... he went from ugly goat man to Perfect Cell-wannabe. He doesn't look badass or intimidating, he just looks super goofy.
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Re: So is this whole Moro arc basically the, "Garlic Jr. saga" of Super?

Post by DevilKing99 » Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:27 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:11 pm
I'm pretty sure Toyotaro already said he purposefully wrote Moro as a pure evil character who cant be reasoned with. It's hard to get invested in a villain when you know they are nothing more than pure evil and have no particular motivation driving them.
It's a shame too, Moro really is going to be considered to be the Garlic Jr. of this era, at least Garlic Jr. was not that long at all so it wasn't so bad, Moro's been the main villain dude for 2 years and does not have any character outside of being evil.

Toyo could have at least given him a villain buddy that he likes a lot. Instead, he's just been a boring villain that does not have meaningful interactions with anybody.

But as been said many times Toyo is not that good at all when it comes to characterization, Black and Zamasu, Future Trunks and anybody, Every character in the top arc was done way better in the anime than in the manga.

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Re: So is this whole Moro arc basically the, "Garlic Jr. saga" of Super?

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:41 pm

I don't look forward to seeing Moro succeed. There needs to be a sense of a potential status quo change for a world if Moro won. There needs to be a sense from your lead antagonist of "I wonder how the story would develop if they achieved their goal!" With Moro you don't get that.
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Re: So is this whole Moro arc basically the, "Garlic Jr. saga" of Super?

Post by Rebel Instinct » Fri Aug 07, 2020 7:19 pm

What even is this discussion anymore?

Never mind the fact that the very premise of this thread is a joke to begin with (Comparing this arc to Garlic Jr.? Seriously?), the "discussion" here has taken a serious downward spiral. I'm not surprised, mind you. I'm just saddened to watch it happen over and over.
DevilKing99 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:18 pm
Wow just like on the main DBZ Reddit I see people say this arc is just like the Garlic Jr. arc.
You're seeing this because the parts of the Dragon Ball fandom you see online are about the size of a thimble.The people you've seen saying this on Reddit likely saw it here first and repeated it. Most of the people here on Kanzenshuu are also on Reddit, Twitter, Gamefaqs, YouTube and all manner of other social media sites, forums and comment sections. If you pay attention, you'll notice how often the exact same usernames (or the same users with slightly different names) pop up in all of these places spouting the exact same opinions, or how conspicuously the exact same comments get copy-pasted to multiple sites at the same time with the exact same words and phrases - right down to the grammatical errors. The Dragon Ball fandom is huge, but those "hardcore" fans who bother to take to the internet and discuss the series at length are relatively few in number compared to the greater fandom as a whole. Those same fans often run in the same circles and take every opportunity to saturate the internet with their opinions as often as possible. They need their opinions "validated".

When a handful of people go out of their way to scream their opinions from every rooftop they can find, it appears as if the whole neighborhood is up in arms. But in reality, it's just the same small group of people with too much time on their hands going everywhere they can think of to "spread the word" as far as they can.
DevilKing99 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:18 pm
This arc has been going for two years and I have barely seen any fan art of Moro at all anywhere, that is a huge issue if the main villain of two years barely has any fan art all.

Hell, there are series with not even 7% of the fame the DBS Manga, Yet I see fan art of the villains in those series. The conclusion is the people simply don't care for the villains in this arc.
https://www.google.com/search?q=dragon+ ... AXoECAwQAw

https://www.deviantart.com/search?q=dra ... per%20moro

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/577797827184870389/

So, I guess we're just lying now? Forget how ludicrous it is to use the frequency of Reddit fan art posts as a meaningful measurement of what is and isn't popular, is this really what this community has been reduced to? Is no one else going to object to these kinds of claims? I suppose it's just a-okay to straight up lie as long as it makes Toyotaro and his work look bad. I love hate how easy it is to just post a falsehood and nobody ever bothers to go verify it. It's also fun exhausting to see how easily people will buy anything that reinforces their biases without any proof and then spread it elsewhere.
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:11 pm
I do agree that fanarts are a good paramater to define how popular a character is. If a character has a lot of fanart on websites like deviantart, pinterest, or reddit, then it's safe to say they are popular. I never really bothered checking how much fanart Moro has, but it's quite sad if he barely has any since he's the main villain of a 2-years long arc.
All it takes is a cursory search to see that there's plenty of art of Moro out there.You barely even have to put in any effort, you just have to bother to try. Most of the prominent Twitter users who post leaks, translations and reviews also frequently retweet artwork like this. If you're plugged into the online community even a little bit, you're bound to see something. Fact check, people.
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:11 pm
Let's be real though, Moro's design kind of sucks... he went from ugly goat man to Perfect Cell-wannabe. He doesn't look badass or intimidating, he just looks super goofy.
If we're actually being "real" here, whether Moro's design sucks or not is entirely subjective.This doesn't honestly need to be said, but the certainty with which comments like these are usually posted - as if the stance is just commonly understood to be 'true' by everyone involved - leads me to believe it bears stating the obvious, if for no other reason than to keep people's perspectives in check. Frankly, I quite like Moro's various designs, including his current one. I also happen find all the "Perfect Cell ripoff" rhetoric to be hopelessly overblown. It's just a minor resemblance being exaggerated and parroted by people looking for things to criticize, rather than any kind of legitimate issue.
DevilKing99 wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:27 pm
But as been said many times Toyo is not that good at all when it comes to characterization, Black and Zamasu, Future Trunks and anybody Every character in the top arc was done way better in the anime than in the manga.
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JulieYBM wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:41 pm
I don't look forward to seeing Moro succeed. There needs to be a sense of a potential status quo change for a world if Moro won. There needs to be a sense from your lead antagonist of "I wonder how the story would develop if they achieved their goal!" With Moro you don't get that.
Need? Why does there need to be a sense of a potential status quo change or how the story would change if Moro won? Since when is this the metric by which we judge the quality of a Dragon Ball villain?

What if Frieza had accomplished his goal back on Namek? The Z-fighters would be dead and he'd go back ruling over the universe as a tyrant, except now he's immortal. What if Cell had accomplished his... "goal"? (what goal did Cell even have besides proving his perfection to the world?) The Z-fighters would be dead and he'd go... do... something... out in the universe? I guess? What if Buu had accompli- Who are we kidding, Buu didn't even have a goal beyond wanton destruction. If Moro won, the Z-fighters would be dead and he'd slowly devour all life in the universe until universal extinction or (more likely) until Beerus or the other Gods stepped in to put a stop to it.

You're never meant to think about the long-term goals of the main villains of Dragon Ball or what the effects of their actions would be beyond the short-term harm they'll inflict on the main cast, the Earth or the universe. Their goals are almost always shortsighted and amount to little more than "gain power, inflict violence on the universe for selfish reasons". The only Dragon Ball villain who could be construed as having any kind of longer reaching effect on the "status quo" would've been Zamas, and even then his efforts would've just amounted to "genocide the multiverse" until Zeno steps in and erases him. The deaths of all the Gods of Destruction would've meant little to Zeno and the Angels anyway, since he was perfectly willing to erase nearly all of them himself during the Tournament of Power for no other reason than "there are too many and I'm bored".

Point being, the only stakes you're really supposed to worry about in Dragon Ball are whether or not the heroes can win against the current baddie and how they'll accomplish it. That's honestly all the more thought Toriyama ever intended the audience to have. And since Super is an interquel, we know the heroes will be fine by the end anyway. That leaves us with the only real concern worth pondering over being "how" the heroes triumph over the villains. It's the method by which the heroes come out on top (and the potential character growth that may provide) that provides the only real arc-by-arc investment of modern Dragon Ball. Creating complicated rules/problems and tricky villains are the best way to provide that sense of investment by making the audience wonder "how will the heroes get out of this jam?" We know they will, the how is what provides the incentive to keep reading/watching. Moro's tricky abilities and the ever-present roadblock of Merus wanting to help, but risking breaking the Angel code provide this incentive competently. "How will our heroes get around this?"

Hoping for a true change of status quo or a palpable sense of stakes is a fool's errand. Hoping for Moro to accomplish this and then blaming Toyotaro for it when it doesn't happen is just being unfair. It has nothing to do with Toyotaro's competence or writing ability, no writer could change the Dragon Ball universe in any meaningful way at this point.Even the oft praised Gods of Destruction and Angels were written to have a strict non-interference policy so that they can never truly affect the narrative. They're just yet another hierarchy of Gods that act as window dressing/measuring sticks for the main cast.The only way to achieve a true change of status quo is to go beyond End of Z. Toyotaro (and by extension, Toei) has his hands tied.
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Re: So is this whole Moro arc basically the, "Garlic Jr. saga" of Super?

Post by Alruneia » Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:43 pm

Not that I can "compete" with the essay above, but
While it's obviously valid to have opinions on the arc and the characters, I feel like this should be said about the original topic, which is the supposed filler status of the Moro arc.
Filler is not something you measure through subjective metrics such as audience reception or writing quality. You might loathe the Moro arc, but that doesn't make it filler. As a comparison, the Otherworld Tournament from Dragon Ball Z isn't canon just because a lot of people love it. There's a lot of ways to define filler, both strict definitions and loose definitions, but filler is practically never defined by opinion. (Of course, popular opinion can influence authors into stating that something is canon or non-canon, but it's still the objective statement from the author that matters, not the subjective opinions of the audience that led the author to make that statement.) After all, if canonicity was defined by something as wishy-washy and ever-changing as opinion, then every copy of the continuity would be personalised! I can't imagine that that'd be very useful in a discussion.
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Re: So is this whole Moro arc basically the, "Garlic Jr. saga" of Super?

Post by DevilKing99 » Sat Aug 22, 2020 4:47 pm

Any changes you guys thoughts on Moro's character with the recent chapter? It looks like this arc has 2 chapters at most left, but I could be wrong.

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Re: So is this whole Moro arc basically the, "Garlic Jr. saga" of Super?

Post by Kinokima » Sun Aug 23, 2020 10:10 am

Alruneia wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:43 pm
Not that I can "compete" with the essay above, but
While it's obviously valid to have opinions on the arc and the characters, I feel like this should be said about the original topic, which is the supposed filler status of the Moro arc.
Filler is not something you measure through subjective metrics such as audience reception or writing quality. You might loathe the Moro arc, but that doesn't make it filler. As a comparison, the Otherworld Tournament from Dragon Ball Z isn't canon just because a lot of people love it. There's a lot of ways to define filler, both strict definitions and loose definitions, but filler is practically never defined by opinion. (Of course, popular opinion can influence authors into stating that something is canon or non-canon, but it's still the objective statement from the author that matters, not the subjective opinions of the audience that led the author to make that statement.) After all, if canonicity was defined by something as wishy-washy and ever-changing as opinion, then every copy of the continuity would be personalised! I can't imagine that that'd be very useful in a discussion.

This 100%

It seems what is considered “filler” according to this thread is what fans like or dislike

In the Z era it was very easy to define what was “filler” because it was simply material that was original and not in Toriyama’s manga


I don’t think anything in the Super manga is filler and in the Super anime I guess you can say the slice of life breather episodes are “filler” before the main storyline kicks into gear. And on another note I really miss those slice of life episodes so filler does not have to equal bad as many people seem to be defining it on here.

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Re: So is this whole Moro arc basically the, "Garlic Jr. saga" of Super?

Post by Xeno Goku Black » Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:48 am

Toriyama seems like he's fed up of the series perhaps which is probably why he's pushing Toyotaro to take over.

He came up with something pretty good with the Goku Black/Zamasu/Trunks story but then he followed that up with a battle royale Tournament so likely Toei could do all the work.

Then Broly was just an entire that was given to him because Broly was popular. Now he's not involved with this arc.

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