So is this whole Moro arc basically the, "Garlic Jr. saga" of Super?

[HulkTySSJ4]

No .

[Matches Malone]

No .

Sometimes the simplest answers are the best ones.

[Cipher]

Isn't there an arc of Super that's literally about a villain who's successfully wished for immortality attempting to ascend to solitary godhood?

In the spirit of what the thread is actually asking: I think--solely from my personal interpretation--it's evident that Toriyama's involvement in the plotting and execution of this arc is reduced compared to previous arcs of Super--enough so that I personally consider it a Toyotarō outing. Even if you're not reading between the lines of the various official statements, that at the very least that Toyotarō is on the record as being responsible for the designs of key players like Moro and Merus demonstrates a decidedly different creative process than Super's previous stories.

But it's still a Toriyama-approved manga outing, whose core concepts he had some involvement with, and I would expect that, even in a more supervisory role, its position as such would mean it's going to be "in the canon" so to speak, of things Toriyama would also feel have "happened" were he ever to contribute more content directly. Maybe he'll never reference the nitty-gritty details, but I think the core thrust of the arc will remain in the series' fictional history.

As others have noted, it's difficult to back away from Goku's ability to access at least UI Sign on demand as well. Certainly Toriyama hasn't felt beholden to every power-up variant in Super--not like we see Kaio-Ken or SSBE (either version of it) showing up in Broly--but that's difficult to have on the table and ignore in a way the various Blue power-ups aren't.

[Gokitalo]

I'm pretty sure Toyotaro already said he purposefully wrote Moro as a pure evil character who cant be reasoned with. It's hard to get invested in a villain when you know they are nothing more than pure evil and have no particular motivation driving them. I'm actually surprised Dragon Ball went back to these generic villains, I was hoping Zamasu set a new standard for future DB villains.

Was a big fan of Zamasu's complexity, too. I will say, though, when it comes to purely evil characters, Dragon Ball still finds ways to set them apart. Demon King Piccolo was very much a showman, for example, while Freeza was a sadist hiding behind a mask of quiet politeness. Super Boo was wild and barely able to control himself, while Kid Boo was completely uninhibited.

Moro, on the other hand, is meant to be a planner. He's also relatively subdued in an almost regal sort of way, but not in a spoiled or "I just act polite to keep you off-guard" sense, like Freeza. He's almost what the modern-day Piccolo would be like if he became a villain again. Don't think Piccolo would have spent a wish on a prison break, though.

Back on topic, though... Moro definitely felt like a filler arc at the beginning. All the rumors about the Super anime returning and a possible new animated film had me suspect that Moro was originally designed to either give Toriyama time to write the next outline/script, or for Toei to animate what he had planned. It wasn't really until later that the Moro arc started introducing major irreversible status quo changes, which definitely lends credence to rumors that whatever Toriyama had planned next had stalled. But again, they are rumors...

I could be wrong, but it seems like Merus was originally going to just be a galactic patrol member, before Toriyama decided to make him an angle. Apart from that, Toriyama is involved in this arc just as much as he was the previous ones, as those were also cooperatively written.

Indeed. I definitely got the impression that Merus was originally just meant to be the "Batman" of the Galactic Patrol, in that he made up for any gaps in power with his tremendous skill (and a few gadgets).

Nope.

1. Vegeta is facing the consequences of his past.
2. Merus, an Angel, has been introduced and trained Gokuu.
3. Gokuu took a new step in getting closer to Migatte no Goku'i.
4. Vegeta learned a new technique, implying that he can now separate Piccolo from Nail.
5. Toei isn't just going to leave a story arc un-adapted into the cartoon side of the franchise.

With the exception of Point 1, though, a lot of this was introduced later on in the arc. The one major change introduced early on was the Dai Kaioshin's personality being awakened in Boo, but that wouldn't have been hard to undo.

But yeah, summing up: my theory is that the Moro arc started as filler, but that changed as plans for Super's future evolved. Honestly, I thought it was going to end shortly after Boo's fight with Moro. Again, I am going off hearsay a bit, but since a lot of those rumors purportedly came from anonymous sources at Toei (so say the YouTubers)... I feel comfortable with that hypothesis. I'm sure Toriyama and Toyotarou will reveal whether it's accurate or not eventually!

[Skar]

It depends on what carries over to the next arc. While the whole arc is "canon" to the manga, Toriyama might only count his own contributions for future outlines. Vegeta's new ability is pretty specific so it might never be brought up again unless a future villain also absorbs people or steals energy. Vegeta facing the consequences of his past is likely going to be resolved this arc after resurrecting the Namekians Moro killed.

Goku learned to use Omen at will but I recall that form being Toei's idea so Toriyama might only take into consideration forms he came up with like in DBS: Broly. For example, Toriyama could have Goku train with the Grand Priest or go back to training with Whis and reveal that he mastered MUI in a future arc. Since Omen has already been included in the manga, Goku mastering it this arc makes him ready for when Toriyama decides for him to master MUI.

[Tai Lung]

If the anime does adapt this story, I imagine it's going to be changed anyway drastically for the anime adaption. Just look at how different the tournament of power was in the manga than the anime, all the fights were done differently until the late stuff with Goku/Jiren.

So if you don't like it in the manga, who knows, maybe the anime could handle it better if/when it gets adapted.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. A large part of the anime being handled the way it was was due to the fact there was nothing to adapt besides Toriyama's outline. But this isn't even an arc outlined by Toriyama, this is the first arc that's mostly Toyotaro's story, with the villain developed by him as well. I wouldn't be surprised if some additions, such as the anime's depiction of SSBE or SSBKK made it in, but I doubt the actual story would be made very different.

it's really a little different ... toei was much more involved in Top arc and that's obvious when most of the characters and surely ideas were added by them
SSBE and Blueken ended up in the manga even
toriyama elaborates a small script based on the ideas that were presented to him ... if the same as broly and his whole concept

[Tai Lung]

[*]Vegeta is facing the consequences of his past.

Vegeta does that in each saga ... I think it's an exaggeration to say that this is Vegeta's redemption arc when in buu arc it was already that and zamasu arc was his redemption as a father and that ...

Now he save some namekians except the ones that moro kills

[precita]

If the Moro arc never receives an anime adaption than it's just filler. Just a "what if" part of the manga storytelling.

We know IF it's adapted to the anime it will most likely be heavily altered or updated, just like the manga handled the TOP completely different than the anime.

[Matches Malone]

I think if anything it'll be remembered more as the arc that didn't know when to end.

[Skar]

I think if anything it'll be remembered more as the arc that didn't know when to end.

It's probably because we're reading it as it's being released which will make it feel longer than reading it in full after it ended like the original manga. At over 900 pages so far, Moro is longer than all the arcs in DB and the Saiyan arc but shorter than Freeza, Cell, and Buu which were around 1300 pages each. It does feel like a lot of Moro is filler and longer than it needs to be though. I guess Toyotaro is trying to make it last until Jump Festa.

[Cipher]

I think if anything it'll be remembered more as the arc that didn't know when to end.

People say this, but Freeza threatened Dende and his village elder for more than a month during the original run.

This isn't my favorite arc in Super, and I'm not saying it doesn't have pacing issues (though I think they lie more toward the battles with the mooks on Earth than in this extended climax), but I think grievances about it not knowing when to end are schewed by it being the first arc most people are following exclusively through the manga during serialization ... ever, in their exposure to the greater DB series.

[Matches Malone]

Freeza threatened Dende and his village elder for more than a month during the original run.

The difference is that 1- it was a weekly manga, so you could get away with a few pacing issues. 2- There were none of the fake out finals that we're currently getting with Moro. First it seemed that Vegeta would get the final fight, then Merus, then Goku, and now someone else is up. With Namek, we knew early on it would come down to Goku vs Freeza, and once that fight started, there were no fake outs.

[Cipher]

The difference is that 1- it was a weekly manga, so you could get away with a few pacing issues. 2- There were none of the fake out finals that we're currently getting with Moro. First it seemed that Vegeta would get the final fight, then Merus, then Goku, and now someone else is up. With Namek, we knew early on it would come down to Goku vs Freeza, and once that fight started, there were no fake outs.

The fight with Freeza lasts like half a year and switches "strongest character" four times. It also literally has a fake-out ending within the Goku vs. Freeza portion by itself.

I'm not going to die on the Moro arc's hill, but I don't think there's anything worse-paced about its climax than any original DB arc, save for the fact that people are following it in serialization. Three chapters of "the gang" vs. Moro's mooks is pretty shameless though, and the kind of clearly delineated consequence-free action the original series rarely engages in. That's prior to the climax, however.

[Draconic]

The difference is that 1- it was a weekly manga, so you could get away with a few pacing issues. 2- There were none of the fake out finals that we're currently getting with Moro. First it seemed that Vegeta would get the final fight, then Merus, then Goku, and now someone else is up. With Namek, we knew early on it would come down to Goku vs Freeza, and once that fight started, there were no fake outs.

The fight with Freeza lasts like half a year and switches "strongest character" four times. It also literally has a fake-out ending within the Goku vs. Freeza portion by itself.

No prior arc ends every chapter with a stinger, basically a wink to the audience, and saying "see how this ends, NEXT TIME!" then next time nothing of worth happens and the ending repeats.

[Cipher]

No prior arc ends every chapter with a stinger, basically a wink to the audience, and saying "see how this ends, NEXT TIME!" then next time nothing of worth happens and the ending repeats.

This arc isn't doing that either? Fans might be eager for it to end the next chapter beause of anticipation on a monthly schedule--and Toyotaro's chapter endings tend to use more pronounced stingers than Toriyama's--but there are plenty of chapters in Toriyama's manga as well where climactic fights could easily have ended the next week, but didn't. This arc's climactic chapters have promised nothing in terms of the following one being the end, save for fan eagerness to interpret each new twist or character arrival as heralding it.

There is absolutely no way there weren't people predicting when the Freeza fight (or any of the series longer climaxes) was going to end and being horribly off.

I'm not saying the Moro arc climax is as good as any of the original DB's climaxes. But I'm horribly, horribly unconvinced its pacing or format is any kind of mismatch.

[The Undying]

When the fight against Freeza starts, within the span of three weekly chapters - which is almost one monthly DBS chapter - we go from Piccolo absorbing Nail to Freeza being surprised (but still unbothered) by Vegeta's growth to Freeza showing that he can transform (then impaling Kuririn) to Gohan demonstrating more of his enormous potential via rage. Four significant things transpire in that length.

When the fight against Moro starts, an entire 45 pages are spent on a supposedly even bout that meant nothing because the end-of-chapter reveal is "Moro was holding back". That's it. That's all we get. In the following chapter, it's more or less the same sort of story beat until Vegeta arrives at the end.

I criticize the climax's pacing because it's poorly paced, not because it's "too long" or whatever. Neither the original manga nor Super's previous arcs had this issue in such a recurring way. There's almost nothing to discuss in monthly-length chunks when so little is actually happening on a progression front.

[Matches Malone]

I criticize the climax's pacing because it's poorly paced, not because it's "too long" or whatever. Neither the original manga nor Super's previous arcs had this issue in such a recurring way. There's almost nothing to discuss in monthly-length chunks when so little is actually happening on a progression front.

I think Toyotaro may have been told to drag things out until November, so that the next arc can be announced and start in December. I think under normal circumstances, the final battle would been 3 chapters long.

If Goku is to kill Moro:
Chapter 1: Vegeta vs Moro, ending with Moro transforming.
Chapter 2: Merus arrives and sacrifices himself. Chapter ends with Goku arriving late and going MUI. No Omen in this version.
Chapter 3: Goku fights and kills Moro.

If Vegeta is to kill Moro :
Chapter 1: Merus arrives and sacrifices himself. Chapter ends with Goku arriving and going MUI.
Chapter 2: Goku fights Moro but due to him deciding to "fight as an earthling", something goes wrong.
Chapter 3: Vegeta arrives, fights and kills Moro. No fusing with 7-3.

The fight with Freeza lasts like half a year and switches "strongest character" four times.

It also literally has a fake-out ending within the Goku vs. Freeza portion by itself.

The difference is that it never tricked us into thinking Freeza would be defeated by Piccolo or Vegeta. The story established from the very beginning that everyone was buying time for Goku to reach the battlefield.

Freeza surviving didn't lead to just another fight with Goku, it was something no one could've seen coming back in the day. With Moro on the other hand, not only are we going in circles with who he's fighting, a good number of the fan base predicted future events a mile away. There's also the fact that Goku's fight had a clear conclusion with him winning.

[precita]

I think the problem is we still don't know if this Moro arc is really "canon" or not. Yes it's part of the manga adaption, but for all we know if/when the anime comes back they could ignore Moro entirely and just have Goku's new forms mastered in the anime in a completely different storyline.

This isn't like stuff we KNOW is non-canon like the original DBZ movies, now GT, or the weird videogame stuff and Heroes.....it's a official manga adaption of Super that now has a new story but we don't know if it's part of the official continuity.

I honestly can't recognize the entire Moro arc as official canon unless it receives an anime adaption. Right now it's about on the level of the DBZ movies or GT.

[JewyB]

I think the problem is we still don't know if this Moro arc is really "canon" or not. Yes it's part of the manga adaption, but for all we know if/when the anime comes back they could ignore Moro entirely and just have Goku's new forms mastered in the anime in a completely different storyline.

This isn't like stuff we KNOW is non-canon like the original DBZ movies, now GT, or the weird videogame stuff and Heroes.....it's a official manga adaption of Super that now has a new story but we don't know if it's part of the official continuity.

I honestly can't recognize the entire Moro arc as official canon unless it receives an anime adaption. Right now it's about on the level of the DBZ movies or GT.

Moro arc is canon.

The anime and the manga have a shared, loose continuity, but they are both canon. It could be argued the manga is more canon than the anime but thats a discussion for a different time and thread, but the Moro arc is very much canon.

[precita]

Moro arc is canon.

The anime and the manga have a shared, loose continuity, but they are both canon. It could be argued the manga is more canon than the anime but thats a discussion for a different time and thread, but the Moro arc is very much canon.

But what if it never receives an anime adaption? Most people do not read the manga, especially casual fans, much less Super's manga, and if the anime skips over him it'll just be an obscure story only manga fans will know about.

Obviously a TV show will always be more mainstream than a comic in general, so if it's never adapted it'll be just something only the hardcore fans know about.