Do you think SSJ Blue and Beyond should never have been introduced?

[GodVegetto91]

And simply have SSJ God as Goku and Vegeta’s ultimate form?

I personally would have loved it, and prefer it far better than what we’ve got.

It’s much simpler, and reduces many of the later forms’ inconsistencies. There was literally no need for them to introduce SSJ Blue other than to sell toys.

SSJ God is Base Goku with God Ki (a new realm of power) That is all you need to introduce beyond SSJ3 and Fusions. And then they simply could have trained in that form. No more transformations, no more nothing, just have SSJ God as their “Ultimate Form”. I mean, it’s literally called “Super Saiyan GOD”. What more could you need???!

Above all, it looks WAYYYYYYYY better than any of the Blue forms aswell as the silver haired Ultra Instinct form. The only 2 forms to look as good as SSJ God are SSJ Rosé and Ultra Instinct Omen.

Red >>>>>>>>>> Blue (any version) > Silver.

What do you think?

Wouldn’t it just have been far simpler to call it a day after SSJ God was achieved? I mean, they literally became a GOD! What more do you need to achieve? The form was simple, yet unique and detailed. All you have added is God ki. No more “Super Saiyan” variations of it like with SSJ Blue.

Also, SSJ Blue doesn’t look like it has anything to do with SSJ God! For starters, it’s BLUE. Secondly, it has Goku’s normal body (not thin like God) it has SSJ Goku’s regular eyes (unlike SSJ God’s pupils and irises) it has many things the same as regular Goku. How can this be the official ascension of SSJ God???? The 2 forms have almost nothing in common except that they both have God ki!

What do you think?

Also, would you like it if Vegeta found a way to incorporate all of his SSJ Blue Evolution power inside his SSJ God form? And then make THAT his ultimate transformation???

[FiReFTW]

No I don't agree with you... however I do agree it was introduced WAAAAAY TOOO FAST, we barely got SSJ God... and then we already got Blue? Da fk???? I will never understand that...

SSJ God should have been used throughout most of the Super arcs..

[theherodjl]

What I don't like is how Vegeta obtained SSJB as opposed to learning SSJG beforehand. Seriously, Its bullshit that Vegeta somehow jumped ahead to learning the upgraded version of a form that needed a ritual to obtain in the first place. The explanation initially from the ROF film was that Vegeta just trained really hard to not only bridge the gap between he & Goku(lol, wut) but that same training also allowed him the use of God Ki. A rather abrupt change in the narrative of Goku being #1 and it makes me wonder if Vegeta fanboys or Toriyama's love for money(or both!) influenced such a janky explanation. The anime later expanded a bit on Vegeta's training and made it so that Goku fell behind for months while Vegeta learned well under Whis' tutelage. Its a better justification for Vegeta learning SSJB but its still not great. I'd rather Vegeta have gone back to Earth to obtain SSJG through a ritual and then showed off the results of training with Whis by pushing himself to SSJB while fighting Freeza.

[Matches Malone]

My ideal situation would be for SsjG to be their default form, alongside Ssj2 for weaker opponents. When ti comes to Goku, I would've liked Omen to be the main look for UI instead of the silver hair form.

[Grimlock]

What I don't like is how Vegeta obtained SSJB as opposed to learning SSJG beforehand.

He didn't. There is no Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan without first acquiring Super Saiyan God/God ki. When we first see Vegeta going Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, he obviously already had Super Saiyan God.

I'd rather Vegeta have gone back to Earth to obtain SSJG through a ritual and then showed off the results of training with Whis by pushing himself to SSJB while fighting Freeza.

That's what happened, though. In Toriyama's continuity, they did the ritual off-screen at some point before going to train with Whis. And in Toei's continuity, Vegeta got god ki through training before getting Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

[Koitsukai]

I'd rather have SSG for the majority of Super. Being mastered later on maybe? SSB was introduced way too soon, so soon that people for a while actually wondered which one was stronger, red or blue?
SSB would've been better if it was introduced during the FT arc. Maybe what Goku uses to fight MZ. A power that allows you to fight a fucking fusion. That would've been a surprise.
And have SSB as the power to beat during the TOP.

[mute_proxy]

What I don't like is how Vegeta obtained SSJB as opposed to learning SSJG beforehand.

He didn't. There is no Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan without first acquiring Super Saiyan God/God ki. When we first see Vegeta going Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, he obviously already had Super Saiyan God.

I'd rather Vegeta have gone back to Earth to obtain SSJG through a ritual and then showed off the results of training with Whis by pushing himself to SSJB while fighting Freeza.

That's what happened, though. In Toriyama's continuity, they did the ritual off-screen at some point before going to train with Whis. And in Toei's continuity, Vegeta got god ki through training before getting Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

It is what happened. The first time we had a glimpse of Vegeta achieving god ki (in anime), was through training in Whis' staff, and it was flashes of SSGSS aura. His reaction was 'So this is god ki?', meaning it was his first time, after which both Goku and Vegeta came out with SSGSS. He didn't learn SSG before hand.

There is no documented continuity in which Vegeta did the ritual. Toriyama always says he achieved god ki through training, so that's also false.

[theherodjl]

What I don't like is how Vegeta obtained SSJB as opposed to learning SSJG beforehand.

He didn't. There is no Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan without first acquiring Super Saiyan God/God ki. When we first see Vegeta going Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, he obviously already had Super Saiyan God.

I'd rather Vegeta have gone back to Earth to obtain SSJG through a ritual and then showed off the results of training with Whis by pushing himself to SSJB while fighting Freeza.

That's what happened, though. In Toriyama's continuity, they did the ritual off-screen at some point before going to train with Whis. And in Toei's continuity, Vegeta got god ki through training before getting Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

I'm sorry, when did Vegeta ever undergo the ritual? Was that ever stated or is that speculation?
Also, is it a fact that SSJB cannot be learned without SSJG?

[TheSaiyanGod]

I'd rather have SSG for the majority of Super. Being mastered later on maybe? SSB was introduced way too soon, so soon that people for a while actually wondered which one was stronger, red or blue?

I think that doubt existed because of the way the anime handled the battle between Goku and Beerus. Everything that happened afterwards seemed to be on a smaller scale than this fight was and that was one of the biggest arguments in favor of God> Blue. But the fact that this discussion existed until the ToP arc is absolutely ridiculous, because there were several media that made it very clear which transformation was strongest (however, the lack of more in-depth explanations about God forms contributed to this)

It is what happened. The first time we had a glimpse of Vegeta achieving god ki (in anime), was through training in Whis' staff, and it was flashes of SSGSS aura. His reaction was 'So this is god ki?', meaning it was his first time, after which both Goku and Vegeta came out with SSGSS. He didn't learn SSG before hand.

There is no documented continuity in which Vegeta did the ritual. Toriyama always says he achieved god ki through training, so that's also false.

Goku claims that Vegeta obtained the power of the Super Saiyan God on his own, so he certainly went through the God form before obtaining Blue. I mean, he uses the SSG during the fight against Broly, when else could he have gotten this form if it weren't for the beginning of training with Whis, before he achieved an even stronger form?

And IIRC, Toriyama never mentioned how Vegeta obtained the SSG. The introduction of Vegeta with this form was actually an idea of Toyotaro, but that Toriyama introduced in his continuity

[Miracles]

I appreciate Toriyama's simple approach. Red and Blue were beautiful in the Broly movie.

The variations of Blue from TOEI/Toyotaro are over the top.

[Shinsa]

There needs to be a limit and a bar that characters (being A. Goku/ B. Vegeta) can reach and not constantly surpassing it left right and centre. SSG would have been better if that was the highest form to achieve as it takes them from being a mortal to god like power. Something i feel wasn't exampled well and tacked on.

While i dont think GOD ki/ multiverse was needed at all in the DB series when so much more lore is unexplained and unexplored, without given the choice i agree that SSJG should have been the end all be all and focus more on mastering the ki.

As for the design i have to disagree, while its not as lazy as SSJB to me it feels like another gimmick to sell toys and just really uninspiring and unimaginative.

[Civic]

I think SSB is fine, but like most people here, I think it was introduced far too quickly. I'd almost say I would've like to have seen it debut in the ToP but then it would have been too much with UI. Maybe in the Zamasu arc it would have been a better fit.

[Grimlock]

The first time we had a glimpse of Vegeta achieving god ki (in anime), was through training in Whis' staff, and it was flashes of SSGSS aura. His reaction was 'So this is god ki?', meaning it was his first time, after which both Goku and Vegeta came out with SSGSS. He didn't learn SSG before hand.

Jesus... Is that so? I don't remember the whole context since I just watched it once and a long time ago. Well then, all the more reason I should stick with the movies if that's what happened.

There is no documented continuity in which Vegeta did the ritual.

It's implied he'll undergo the ritual in the movie continuity.

Toriyama always says he achieved god ki through training,

Source?

when did Vegeta ever undergo the ritual? Was that ever stated or is that speculation?

Neither. It is implied. It is the only word we have when it comes to the movies.

Also, is it a fact that SSJB cannot be learned without SSJG?

Logical reason would tell you yes (and the way things played out in the movies), but if what mute_proxy posted is true, then in Toei's continuity it is possible to skip Super Saiyan God and go straight to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. Like I said above, all the more reason to consider the movies instead.

[Tai Lung]

What do you think?

no .. only they should be introduced later in zamasu arc

[TheSaiyanGod]

The first time we had a glimpse of Vegeta achieving god ki (in anime), was through training in Whis' staff, and it was flashes of SSGSS aura. His reaction was 'So this is god ki?', meaning it was his first time, after which both Goku and Vegeta came out with SSGSS. He didn't learn SSG before hand.

Jesus... Is that so? I don't remember the whole context since I just watched it once and a long time ago. Well then, all the more reason I should stick with the movies if that's what happened.

Honestly, it seemed to me that in this scene Vegeta was talking about the pressure of the dimension inside the Whis' staff, which was due to the fact that this room is surrounded by God Ki, but not exactly Vegeta having it

Spoiler:

After that they even compare the conditions of this room with the RoSaT

[Matches Malone]

There needs to be a limit and a bar that characters can reach and not constantly surpassing it left right and center.

You can't really do that with a series that is now being written to go on forever. Toriyama said one of the reasons he ended DB was because he didn't think Goku could get stronger in a logical way, and when you look at something as bad as "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan", he had a point.

[Grimlock]

Honestly, it seemed to me that in this scene Vegeta was talking about the pressure of the dimension inside the Whis' staff, which was due to the fact that this room is surrounded by God Ki, but not exactly Vegeta having it

Spoiler:

So Vegeta's first contact with god Ki was in there, he absorbed it while training in there and when he comes out he transforms into Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, isn't?

[Koitsukai]

Honestly, it seemed to me that in this scene Vegeta was talking about the pressure of the dimension inside the Whis' staff, which was due to the fact that this room is surrounded by God Ki, but not exactly Vegeta having it

Spoiler:

So Vegeta's first contact with god Ki was in there, he absorbed it while training in there and when he comes out he transforms into Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, isn't?

That is anime only.
In the manga, Vegeta goes blue when training with Goku, both in their base forms, and noticing he is not having the edge. They are interrupted by Whis so he can call SSGSS just ssb. The manga implies he already got every form offscreen.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Honestly, it seemed to me that in this scene Vegeta was talking about the pressure of the dimension inside the Whis' staff, which was due to the fact that this room is surrounded by God Ki, but not exactly Vegeta having it

Spoiler:

So Vegeta's first contact with god Ki was in there, he absorbed it while training in there and when he comes out he transforms into Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, isn't?

Yes, apparently his first contact with God Ki was within Whis' staff but we don't know if he left there already with SSB

But either way, Blue is an evolution of the Super Saiyan God, it was necessary that he obtain the power of the red form before. Goku also mentions that Vegeta obtained the power of the SSG on his own, so I doubt that he literally skipped that form, theoretically it wouldn't be possible.

[Grimlock]

In the manga, Vegeta goes blue when training with Goku, both in their base forms, and noticing he is not having the edge. They are interrupted by Whis so he can call SSGSS just ssb. The manga implies he already got every form offscreen.

Ah yeah, I remember that Toyotaro never told us how Vegeta got Super Saiyan God, it's completely in the air. But hopefully he chooses the ritual eventually, as it makes more sense, and because apparently there is no "Whis staff" thing in the manga continuity too.

Yes, apparently his first contact with God Ki was within Whis' staff but we don't know if he left there already with SSB

It should be the case, though. You don't actually need the transformation itself, you need to retain in your body the power that form provides. If Vegeta got god power inside the staff, then he should be able to stack it with the Super Saiyan. Effectively skipping Super Saiyan God. Which also establishes that the Super Saiyan God form can only be achieved through the ritual, and Whis staff be an alternative way/source to attain god power/ki itself, not the transformation.

Goku also mentions that Vegeta obtained the power of the SSG on his own, so I doubt that he literally skipped that form, theoretically it wouldn't be possible.

If what I said above is true and expanding it a little more, then it is possible the impossibility for Vegeta to transform into Super Saiyan God. As it seems, the Super Saiyan God transformation and the capacity to absorb its power are two separated things. Just because you have god power/ki (especially when you got it in a different way) doesn't necessarily mean you will be able to transform into Super Saiyan God, you didn't do the ritual (and this may or may not be connected with the pure heart thing, I just had a theory right now but I'll leave it for another discussion if you aren't interested). Which is why I think if Vegeta ever transforms into Super Saiyan God in the anime, it won't make much sense.