What I like about Ultra Instinct is that it has nothing to do with the SSJ God lineage of transformations

[GodVegetto91]

According to the writers themselves at least, SSG, SSB and SSBE are all related. You can’t have the higher forms without the lower. So SSGSS is dependent on SSG (which I find strange if you’ve read my other threads) and SSBE naturally is dependent on SSB. Something that I DO fully agree with. Okay fine.

Now Ultra Instinct is a wholly different state (which also uses Godly Ki).

But Ultra Instinct is achieved through an entirely different means. It’s the method of achieving it that reveals it’s a different evolution.

As Merus put it: “It is achieved when you gain “self control”, in the face of a jarring shock to your emotions.”

That’s all that’s requiered for it. No need for prior God forms at your disposal.

During battle ofcourse.

After that happens, your mind needs to be still and calm, allowing your body to take over.

This form is entirely battle dependent, and is achieved specifically through “battle”, and calming your mind and attaining “self control” in the face of a jarring shock to your emotions.

From this sense, anyone could “potentially” achieve it. Since the method itself has nothing to do with the former God powers and forms.

This state is all about martial arts.

Also, Goku has been seen tapping into the state FROM HIS BASE FORM on several occasions! That right there is all the proof you need.

[Gogeta SSJ Blue]

Well, obviously, it has no relation at all to SSG forms but I still think that the user has to have attained prior to it a form or possessed a Godly Ki.

Not just someone randomly get it!

Like for example, Krillin would not be able to but if it is for instance Jiren, then he just might be able to reach it too.

I don't know why exactly, but I think that only with a certain stength and training you can eventually gain acess to it.

Goku has it, he gained acess to it after an interesting event ocurred, now he can reach it at will but there are still limitations he has to eventually overcome.

And Goku still can not acess the complete form or the Mastered form yet!

[Dragon Wukong]

I assume being able to use godly ki in the first place may be a prerequisite to this form. As SSG is possibly just a Saiyan casting a godly aura in the first place, SSG might actually be a prerequisite to using Ultra Instinct for Saiyans. Though, ultimately it isn't considered a "Super Saiyan" form.

[theherodjl]

Roshi managed to briefly tap into UI despite having normal Ki so obviously UI doesn't require God Ki to actually use, it just helps to have had access to such incredible power as a guide to using another incredible power as UI. I imagine that Roshi could eventually use UI regularly too as he still has among the greatest wisdom of the Z Senshi. However, Roshi might not have the motivation to try since Goku has mastered it and nobody is expecting Roshi to save the day. He's an old man after all who would rather live in peace than be a fighting maniac like Goku.

[GodVegetto91]

Roshi managed to briefly tap into UI despite having normal Ki so obviously UI doesn't require God Ki to actually use, it just helps to have had access to such incredible power as a guide to using another incredible power as UI. I imagine that Roshi could eventually use UI regularly too as he still has among the greatest wisdom of the Z Senshi. However, Roshi might not have the motivation to try since Goku has mastered it and nobody is expecting Roshi to save the day. He's an old man after all who would rather live in peace than be a fighting maniac like Goku.

Good post. I agree with everything you said here.

Though having God forms at your disposal certainly HELPS, it’s not requiered.

[Dragon Wukong]

Roshi managed to briefly tap into UI despite having normal Ki so obviously UI doesn't require God Ki to actually use, it just helps to have had access to such incredible power as a guide to using another incredible power as UI. I imagine that Roshi could eventually use UI regularly too as he still has among the greatest wisdom of the Z Senshi. However, Roshi might not have the motivation to try since Goku has mastered it and nobody is expecting Roshi to save the day. He's an old man after all who would rather live in peace than be a fighting maniac like Goku.

Roshi never "tapped into UI." He managed to use an imitation of the technique that drew upon the same principles of automatic movement, but Whis notes that it isn't Ultra Instinct, and once Jiren gets mildly serious he takes out Roshi in a single blow. It's effectively the same thing Beerus did in his exhibition fight (which also wasn't Ultra Instinct, just an application of the principles that lead to it.) Roshi actually can already use his "imitation UI" regularly if you've read the latest arc, as he used it to fight the three prisoner girls, but again lost when they fused.

[The Undying]

I assume being able to use godly ki in the first place may be a prerequisite to this form.

Personally, my interpretation is the opposite. It's more that the strength of these transformations, starting with SSG, acts as a prerequisite to unlocking god ki for the Saiyans at their current level.

I think that's spelled out fairly clearly by Kami, whose strength didn't appear to depend on possessing god ki, and Toppo, whose actions hinted that mortals need to reach a certain level of power before they can tap into it (whereas gods get it automatically after becoming gods, regardless of how weak they are).

In other words: Super Saiyan God isn't strong because of god ki, it's capable of using god ki because it's that strong. Same goes for Ultra Instinct.

[GodVegetto91]

I assume being able to use godly ki in the first place may be a prerequisite to this form.

Personally, my interpretation is the opposite. It's more that the strength of these transformations, starting with SSG, acts as a prerequisite to unlocking god ki for the Saiyans at their current level.

I think that's spelled out fairly clearly by Kami, whose strength didn't appear to depend on possessing god ki, and Toppo, whose actions hinted that mortals need to reach a certain level of power before they can tap into it (whereas gods get it automatically after becoming gods, regardless of how weak they are).

In other words: Super Saiyan God isn't strong because of god ki, it's capable of using god ki because it's that strong. Same goes for Ultra Instinct.

Uhm SSJ God is defined by its ki source, which is pure god ki. It doesn’t have God Ki because it’s strong, rather, it’s strong because it has God ki. Godly Ki is the source of its strength. This is very clear.

[The Undying]

Godly Ki is the source of its strength.

That's actually not stated anywhere in the series. It's also refuted by two mediums in modern DB - the Super anime and Battle of Gods film. Goku being able to absorb its strength already demonstrates its strength to be independent of god ki.

Super Saiyan God is strong for the same reason any of the transformations are strong; the forms themselves amplify the user's power. Ultra Instinct has no connection to the god forms and uses the same ki type, yet it's demonstrably more powerful than SSG.

[Lionel]

It has no connection to SSJ but aesthetically and mechanically it seems to take a lot of inspiration from transformations. Shame that no one else outside of Goku and the angels will likely be allowed to use it. I would really enjoy watching experienced fighters like Piccolo, Krillin, and Tenshinhan begin their own journeys for acquiring it. I'm sure some of the others like Yamcha could at least grasp and utilise some of the principles of UI like Beerus.

[Dragon Wukong]

Personally, my interpretation is the opposite. It's more that the strength of these transformations, starting with SSG, acts as a prerequisite to unlocking god ki for the Saiyans at their current level.

I think that's spelled out fairly clearly by Kami, whose strength didn't appear to depend on possessing god ki, and Toppo, whose actions hinted that mortals need to reach a certain level of power before they can tap into it (whereas gods get it automatically after becoming gods, regardless of how weak they are).

In other words: Super Saiyan God isn't strong because of god ki, it's capable of using god ki because it's that strong. Same goes for Ultra Instinct.

You may be right, but SSG seems to be intrinsically tied to godly ki (as in, if you're using SSG, you're using godly ki) and Toppo treats Goku transforming as the same thing as him casting a "godly aura", which boosts his strength. Though, it's noted that Goku can't sense Toppo's ki while he's in base form long before he does so.

At this point I'm discussing continuity differences, but I'm not actually sure Dende and Kami had godly ki in the manga. It's never commented on, with the only hint being that one time that Dende could sense Beerus in the anime (and the DBS anime is kinda wonky when it comes to the rules of god ki anyhow.) My general theory (which is just theory at this point) has been god ki is a power boost for anyone who achieves it, with only Kais/Angels being the ones who naturally have it, and Gods of Destruction chosen from mortals who learned it, with other mortals possibly able to attain guardian positions despite a lack of it.

[Gogeta SSJ Blue]

I assume being able to use godly ki in the first place may be a prerequisite to this form.

Personally, my interpretation is the opposite. It's more that the strength of these transformations, starting with SSG, acts as a prerequisite to unlocking god ki for the Saiyans at their current level.

I think that's spelled out fairly clearly by Kami, whose strength didn't appear to depend on possessing god ki, and Toppo, whose actions hinted that mortals need to reach a certain level of power before they can tap into it (whereas gods get it automatically after becoming gods, regardless of how weak they are).

In other words: Super Saiyan God isn't strong because of god ki, it's capable of using god ki because it's that strong. Same goes for Ultra Instinct.

Now, I kinda agree when you said that the user has to reach a certain level of power.

And later too, when you said that it amplifies the user strength.

It has no connection to SSJ but aesthetically and mechanically it seems to take a lot of inspiration from transformations. Shame that no one else outside of Goku and the angels will likely be allowed to use it. I would really enjoy watching experienced fighters like Piccolo, Krillin, and Tenshinhan begin their own journeys for acquiring it. I'm sure some of the others like Yamcha could at least grasp and utilise some of the principles of UI like Beerus.

I still think that Jiren, Toppo and Vegeta should be able to attain UI.

[GodVegetto91]

I mean, highly skilled and experienced martial artists like Hit and Jiren should be able to achieve Ultra Instinct in theory. And neither of them have Godly Ki. Perfect Cell likewise.

[Dragon Wukong]

I mean, highly skilled and experienced martial artists like Hit and Jiren should be able to achieve Ultra Instinct in theory. And neither of them have Godly Ki. Perfect Cell likewise.

They don't have, but they could train to achieve a state of divine ki. Ultra Instinct has godly ki anyhow, so they've achieved the form and use the technique they've also achieved godly ki.

[GodVegetto91]

I mean, highly skilled and experienced martial artists like Hit and Jiren should be able to achieve Ultra Instinct in theory. And neither of them have Godly Ki. Perfect Cell likewise.

They don't have, but they could train to achieve a state of divine ki. Ultra Instinct has godly ki anyhow, so they've achieved the form and use the technique they've also achieved godly ki.

When you attain Ultra Instinct, you automatically achieve God ki. Or at least, for Saiyans that is.

[Dragon Wukong]

When you attain Ultra Instinct, you automatically achieve God ki. Or at least, for Saiyans that is.

I highly doubt that it would only be the case for Saiyans, especially given the emphasis on how Ultra Instinct is a godly technique.

[GodVegetto91]

When you attain Ultra Instinct, you automatically achieve God ki. Or at least, for Saiyans that is.

I highly doubt that it would only be the case for Saiyans, especially given the emphasis on how Ultra Instinct is a godly technique.

Hence why I said “AT LEAST”.

[emperior]

Godly Ki is the source of its strength.

That's actually not stated anywhere in the series. It's also refuted by two mediums in modern DB - the Super anime and Battle of Gods film. Goku being able to absorb its strength already demonstrates its strength to be independent of god ki.

Super Saiyan God is strong for the same reason any of the transformations are strong; the forms themselves amplify the user's power. Ultra Instinct has no connection to the god forms and uses the same ki type, yet it's demonstrably more powerful than SSG.

I think the point of Battle of Gods was that Goku is such a genius he was able to make that power its own.
But that power was that incredible due to being divine.
Yet Goku still turned SSG at the end to neutralize Beerus’ attack.

Also it seems like the manga retconned that bit of Goku absorbing SSG, and that’s why he can use the form willingly as it’s basically what results when he uses God Ki. We know that to turn Super Saiyan you need rage (or a tingly back) so what’s the trigger for SSG? God Ki. Then mix Super Saiyan with God Ki and Blue is born.

The manga seems to be especially consistent with the fact that it seems like Goku and Vegeta still cannot sense God Ki when they aren’t Gods themselves, as seen with Goku not being able to sense Toppo before going SSG himself and more recently Vegeta who couldn’t sense Goku on Earth while he was using Ultra Instinct.

If I remember correctly the concept that “only Gods can sense other Gods” was first introduced in Battle of Gods if not even in the original manga, and it seems like Toyotaro is following it to the letter while in the anime once you reach a certain level of power you can sense Gods, as stated by Whis when he was training Vegeta (“he barely reached a level where he can sense Gods” or something along these lines).

[The Undying]

Also it seems like the manga retconned that bit of Goku absorbing SSG

It was never a thing in the manga, and I'd argue even the anime retconned it at some point. Still, it's worth noting a distinction is made there. I've outlined more examples in this post.

There's also a number of other examples in the manga specifically (SS forms transitioning to SSG, Black referring to SSG as a "lower Super Saiyan form" than SSB, Goku's description of SSG in the exhibition, SSG reverting to SS3 after his ki is drained by Moro) that pretty clearly suggest it's more than just "base + god ki". God ki is obviously ingrained into the form, but it doesn't appear to be the only trigger and I'd say it's actually the manga that most strongly makes the case that it's part of the standard Super Saiyan line.

As for Blue, I've posted my thoughts on that here. In short, I don't think it's any different than when Goku described Super Saiyan 2 as a Super Saiyan going Super Saiyan in the Boo arc.

The term "Super Saiyan X" in itself is an additional qualifier. It's not until Ultra Instinct that we get transformations that are explicitly distinguished from the actual Super Saiyan forms.

[emperior]

Also it seems like the manga retconned that bit of Goku absorbing SSG

It was never a thing in the manga, and I'd argue even the anime retconned it at some point. Still, it's worth noting a distinction is made there. I've outlined more examples in this post.

There's also a number of other examples in the manga specifically (SS forms transitioning to SSG, Black referring to SSG as a "lower Super Saiyan form" than SSB, Goku's description of SSG in the exhibition, SSG reverting to SS3 after his ki is drained by Moro) that pretty clearly suggest it's more than just "base + god ki". God ki is obviously ingrained into the form, but it doesn't appear to be the only trigger and I'd say it's actually the manga that most strongly makes the case that it's part of the standard Super Saiyan line.

As for Blue, I've posted my thoughts on that here. In short, I don't think it's any different than when Goku described Super Saiyan 2 as a Super Saiyan going Super Saiyan in the Boo arc.

The term "Super Saiyan X" in itself is an additional qualifier. It's not until Ultra Instinct that we get transformations that are explicitly distinguished from the actual Super Saiyan forms.

Thanks for the informative post.
I actually mistakenly wrote retconned while having in mind that Goku never reverted from SSG in Toyotaro’s Battle of Gods brief retelling.
But I definitely forgot about how Goku went from God to 3 while being absorbed by Moro.

So what the manga actually retconned from Toriyama’s movies is that Super Saiyan God and its variants no longer have God Ki, as everyone could sense Blue Goku and Blue Vegeta when they fought Moro. While Ultra Instinct has God Ki and that’s what distinguishes it.
Unless I am once again missing something.