Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by Tai Lung » Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:28 pm

The Undying wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:32 am
Dragon Wukong wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:12 pm
It's not equivalent to Frieza seeing two Saiyans on earth who did the fusion dance, not be surprised by it, then be surprised by Goku and Vegeta having that same exact technique.
Not to mention they wore the exact same clothing. Freeza in the movie has no idea what he's looking at, and doesn't even acknowledge meeting Gotenks after Gogeta explains the concept of fusion to him.

So either Freeza has bad memory and recognition (unlikely, given that he was able to recognize a low class Saiyan around 30 years prior to meeting Goku who resembles him) or it's just a blatant continuity error on the anime's part (much more likely, given that Toriyama rarely if ever has any involvement in Toei's scriptwriting choices beyond his own outlines).
That does not mean anything because Frieza does not know about the fusion dance no matter how much he has seen the clothes ... it is as if he said that he did not recognize he did not recognize the transformation of broly to be the same as that of kale that he saw in both versions

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by Tai Lung » Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:35 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:30 am
Why would the type of fusion not matter? Frieza isn't necessarily shocked by the existence of fusion, but the fact GOKU AND VEGETA fused. Without potara in fact. That's pretty significant, even after witnessing Kefla. To deny otherwise is being facetious. You saying that argument is "dumb" is again, you trying to shut down a valid point so you can come up as the "winner" of this pointless debate.
because frieza does not mention a specific type of fusion but he have already seen several ...
saiyans, her soldiers and universe 3

Frieza saw the mergers but never knew they used potalas.
what I find funny is that you want to assume that frieza will understand how they do it without context

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by Dragon Wukong » Sun Jul 05, 2020 6:58 pm

Tai Lung wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:35 pm
because frieza does not mention a specific type of fusion but he have already seen several ...
saiyans, her soldiers and universe 3

Frieza saw the mergers but never knew they used potalas.
what I find funny is that you want to assume that frieza will understand how they do it without context
What do you mean assume? Kale and Caulifla fused using potara in the middle of an open battlefield, Champa yelled about it in the manga, and in the anime it's seen they put on the earrings. In the anime it's even shown that he's paying attention to Goku's fights, and everyone else argues over if they should use potara afterward. There's no reason to assume in either medium that Frieza wouldn't know about the potara after that spectacle.

Of course the context of the "type of fusion" matters after that. One requires an item that there's no reason to assume Goku and Vegeta would have any kind of regular access to, while the other is a technique that can be performed whenever, that, again, Frieza SHOULD already know about in the anime continuity.

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by The Undying » Sun Jul 05, 2020 7:32 pm

Tai Lung wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:28 pm
That does not mean anything because Frieza does not know about the fusion dance no matter how much he has seen the clothes ...
He doesn't need to see the fusion dance and you're completely missing the point. Anime Freeza knows what the result looks like. He also knows what happens when these characters fuse without an external item.

Let's not be willfully obtuse. Freeza encountering Gotenks doesn't jive no matter how you try to rationalize it, and it's not even the only contradiction between Broly and the anime's RoF arc.
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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by Tai Lung » Sun Jul 05, 2020 7:52 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 6:58 pm
Tai Lung wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:35 pm
because frieza does not mention a specific type of fusion but he have already seen several ...
saiyans, her soldiers and universe 3

Frieza saw the mergers but never knew they used potalas.
what I find funny is that you want to assume that frieza will understand how they do it without context
What do you mean assume? Kale and Caulifla fused using potara in the middle of an open battlefield, Champa yelled about it in the manga, and in the anime it's seen they put on the earrings. In the anime it's even shown that he's paying attention to Goku's fights, and everyone else argues over if they should use potara afterward. There's no reason to assume in either medium that Frieza wouldn't know about the potara after that spectacle.

Of course the context of the "type of fusion" matters after that. One requires an item that there's no reason to assume Goku and Vegeta would have any kind of regular access to, while the other is a technique that can be performed whenever, that, again, Frieza SHOULD already know about in the anime continuity.
in the anime caulifla and kale they kept the potala a secret and did not use it until they were almost defeated and only those who know the potala fusion think about them ...
frieza saw it but that doesn't mean he understands how they did it
As far as I remember no one heard the scream of champa and that is why no one prevented the merger from happening

false because the gotenks merger was never explained to frieza even the term Gatai is used which is for any fusion ...
The Undying wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 7:32 pm
Tai Lung wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:28 pm
That does not mean anything because Frieza does not know about the fusion dance no matter how much he has seen the clothes ...
He doesn't need to see the fusion dance and you're completely missing the point. He knows what the result looks like.

Let's not be willfully obtuse. Freeza encountering Gotenks doesn't jive no matter how you try to rationalize it, and it's not even the only contradiction between Broly and the anime's RoF arc.
false because that contradicts the existence of kefla, amilaza and Aka no matter how they want to just justify that ...

Frieza should know about the merger because of all those events and it seems that the doesn't know the concept

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKSnhPqbAbg&t=8s

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by Dragon Wukong » Sun Jul 05, 2020 7:57 pm

Tai Lung you deliberately ignored the point I brought up, Frieza would know about the potara and how they work because every remaining universe was shuffling to decide who should fuse and yelling into the arena that they have to put the potara on each ear. You're assuming Frieza would just not be paying attention to all of that going on, when every universe witnessed Kefla's fusion.

Yes they kept the potara secret, but it wasn't a secret anymore when they pulled it out and fused. Everyone in that arena knew it came from the earrings.

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by The Undying » Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:28 pm

Tai Lung wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 7:52 pm
false because that contradicts the existence of kefla, amilaza and Aka
Pay attention to the material, my dude.

1. In the manga, Freeza disappears from the scene long before Kale and Caulifla merge with Potara; several panels even show Goku's exact position throughout this incident, which is where Freeza was last seen. It's not until after Kefla appears, Anilaza appears and is defeated, and Goku fights Jiren again that Freeza is revealed to have been hiding far away from everyone and conserving energy the whole time.

It's more than plausible that he never specifically saw any of those fusions happen in the first place. I won't speak for the anime because the anime already ousted itself (again, this isn't the only contradiction).

2. The "concept" Gogeta talks about is totally foreign to Freeza. You can mentally jog yourself through in-universe hypotheticals as much as you want, but the actual story shows us he's incapable of recognizing the result of Metamoran fusion, despite its common design and appearance. If Broly adhered to the anime's continuity, this literally could not be the case.

Just pay attention to the material.
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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by Tai Lung » Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:17 pm

The Undying wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:28 pm
Tai Lung wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 7:52 pm
false because that contradicts the existence of kefla, amilaza and Aka
Pay attention to the material, my dude.

1. In the manga, Freeza disappears from the scene long before Kale and Caulifla merge with Potara; several panels even show Goku's exact position throughout this incident, which is where Freeza was last seen. It's not until after Kefla appears, Anilaza appears and is defeated, and Goku fights Jiren again that Freeza is revealed to have been hiding far away from everyone and conserving energy the whole time.

It's more than plausible that he never specifically saw any of those fusions happen in the first place.

2. The "concept" Gogeta talks about is totally foreign to Freeza. You can mentally jog yourself through in-universe hypotheticals as much as you want, but the actual story conveys he's incapable of recognizing the result of Metamoran fusion, despite its common design and appearance. If Broly adhered to the anime's continuity, this literally could not be the case.

Just pay attention to the material.
How do you explain that Aka an elite soldier of Frieza who had the same level as the Ginyu force was not mentioned

the fact that it was not mentioned does not deny it ... especially if broly becomes an SSJ but nobody remembers or even mentions Kale despite being a recent fact

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by The Undying » Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:28 pm

Tai Lung wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:17 pm
How do you explain that Aka an elite soldier of Frieza who had the same level as the Ginyu force was not mentioned
There's nothing to explain because the JSAT special isn't a Toriyama story. It's meaningless. Not even Tarble's existence validates Aka.

Whether Freeza mentions Gotenks is besides the point. The story and dialogue jointly establish that Freeza doesn't know what fusion is.
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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by Tai Lung » Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:35 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 7:57 pm
Tai Lung you deliberately ignored the point I brought up, Frieza would know about the potara and how they work because every remaining universe was shuffling to decide who should fuse and yelling into the arena that they have to put the potara on each ear. You're assuming Frieza would just not be paying attention to all of that going on, when every universe witnessed Kefla's fusion.

Yes they kept the potara secret, but it wasn't a secret anymore when they pulled it out and fused. Everyone in that arena knew it came from the earrings.
not necessarily because frieza was also fighting with other characters or trying to annoy others ... I was not sitting watching the fight
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXFIXVIm5As

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by Tai Lung » Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:37 pm

The Undying wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:28 pm
Tai Lung wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:17 pm
How do you explain that Aka an elite soldier of Frieza who had the same level as the Ginyu force was not mentioned
There's nothing to explain because the JSAT special isn't a Toriyama story. It's meaningless. Not even Tarble's existence validates Aka.

Whether Freeza mentions Gotenks is besides the point. The story and dialogue jointly establish that Freeza doesn't know what fusion is.
vegeta mentions tarble in BofG and Broly movie

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by The Undying » Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:43 pm

Tai Lung wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:37 pm
vegeta mentions tarble in BofG and Broly movie
The Undying wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:28 pm
Not even Tarble's existence validates Aka.
It helps to read what you're quoting before you reply to it.

Again, JSAT has as much Toriyama involvement as anything else Toei adds without his story supervision, i.e. the scene with Gotenks. It's useless.
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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by pepd » Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:29 pm

Tai Lung wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:37 pm
The Undying wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:28 pm
Tai Lung wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:17 pm
How do you explain that Aka an elite soldier of Frieza who had the same level as the Ginyu force was not mentioned
There's nothing to explain because the JSAT special isn't a Toriyama story. It's meaningless. Not even Tarble's existence validates Aka.
vegeta mentions tarble in BofG and Broly movie
Aren't those probably just Toei additions? JSAT was premiered in 2008, DB Minus in 2014. In Minus, Tori didn't mention Tāble in the scene where it's mentioned in DBS:Broly, and he shows some F soldier of the race of Abo&Cado when he could've draw them instead.
Also, manga doesn't mention Tāble, so the only source that we know for sure acknowledge JSAT is Toei, even when both Tori and Toyo had the chance.

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by Grimlock » Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:06 pm

Sadala Elite wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:13 pm
Yet no explict mention of Vegeta ever doing it in Movie 15. There would be no debate about this otherwise
I don't think we are debating this because of a lack of a mention. I am perfectly fine with Movie 14 implying a ritual will happen at some point and then Movie 15 showing only the result, with the "core thing" that led to that result taking place off-screen. I think we are debating this because you, unlike me, are not fine with the situation.
pepd wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:29 pm
Aren't those probably just Toei additions?
Most likely not. If Tarble's mention in Movie 14 and Dragon Ball Super Broly was a Toei's thing, they would include it in their retelling. There's no reason to think that Tarble was mentioned in the movies due to Toei and then they would summarily not include such mention in the retelling. We're talking about Toei, they include what they can where they can. Even Gregory appears in the anime, yet he is nowhere to be seen in the movie.
pepd wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:29 pm
JSAT was premiered in 2008, DB Minus in 2014. In Minus, Tāble wasn't mentioned in the scene where it's mentioned in DBS:Broly
Dragon Ball Minus also doesn't depict Bardock's rebellion.

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by Tai Lung » Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:25 pm

The Undying wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:43 pm
Tai Lung wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:37 pm
vegeta mentions tarble in BofG and Broly movie
The Undying wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:28 pm
Not even Tarble's existence validates Aka.
It helps to read what you're quoting before you reply to it.

Again, JSAT has as much Toriyama involvement as anything else Toei adds without his story supervision, i.e. the scene with Gotenks. It's useless.
I read it ... but your argument is basically "because I say so" you have no more ... if they mention tarble it is obviously because those events happened in history and they want to explain what happened to it ... otherwise the mention no make sense
it's supposed to be the story that toriyama is most involved in

you just don't want to admit it's a movie mistake how when nobody even remembers the kale or frieza no remember the fusiion even though he already saw several or Vegeta SSBE etc

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by Tai Lung » Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:28 pm

pepd wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:29 pm
Tai Lung wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:37 pm
The Undying wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:28 pm

There's nothing to explain because the JSAT special isn't a Toriyama story. It's meaningless. Not even Tarble's existence validates Aka.
vegeta mentions tarble in BofG and Broly movie
Aren't those probably just Toei additions? JSAT was premiered in 2008, DB Minus in 2014. In Minus, Tori didn't mention Tāble in the scene where it's mentioned in DBS:Broly, and he shows some F soldier of the race of Abo&Cado when he could've draw them instead.
Also, manga doesn't mention Tāble, so the only source that we know for sure acknowledge JSAT is Toei, even when both Tori and Toyo had the chance.
I already answered that ... the movies are supposed to be the ones that Toriyama has the most intervention mentioned in two movies

unless they want to say that the movies are no longer canon or something like that

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by pepd » Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:11 am

Grimlock wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:06 pm
pepd wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:29 pm
JSAT was premiered in 2008, DB Minus in 2014. In Minus, Tāble wasn't mentioned in the scene where it's mentioned in DBS:Broly
Dragon Ball Minus also doesn't depict Bardock's rebellion.
Yeah, you are right, it could be because other reasons; but the point is, and remains, that there has been multiple chances to acknowledge JSAT (specially Abo&Cado in Minus, where Toriyama decided to draw similar soldiers, but not them), yet the only ones who we know for sure did it is Toei in the movies
Tai Lung wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:28 pm
pepd wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:29 pm
Tai Lung wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:37 pm

vegeta mentions tarble in BofG and Broly movie
Aren't those probably just Toei additions?
I already answered that ... the movies are supposed to be the ones that Toriyama has the most intervention mentioned in two movies
unless they want to say that the movies are no longer canon or something like that
My bad
My point was that what matters for explanations is Tori's story, not the official story that is the closest to it, because is Toriyama the only one who can explain things like how did Vegeta achieve SSG

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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by The Undying » Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:45 am

Tai Lung wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:25 pm
I read it ... but your argument is basically "because I say so" you have no more
You didn't read it, so I'll clarify one more time for clarification's sake:

It's not an argument that Takao Koyama wrote the story. It's not an argument that Toriyama had very little involvement in the JSAT special. It's not an argument that Toriyama has no qualms about overriding details he didn't personally supervise, especially if it comes from Toei (which this special does).

Those are all very easily verifiable facts.

Now that we've settled that, let's put the goalpost back where it was. This discussion was primarily about what exactly the movie's take on Freeza's ignorance of fusion contradicts. Fortunately, it only conflicts with one medium: the anime. The movies and manga are completely fine. Freeza doesn't encounter it in those.

Acknowledging inconsistencies on Toei's side really shouldn't cause you the level of discomfort it apparently does, so you'll want to reflect on that.
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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by emperior » Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:17 am

The Undying wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 7:32 pm
He doesn't need to see the fusion dance and you're completely missing the point. Anime Freeza knows what the result looks like. He also knows what happens when these characters fuse without an external item.

Let's not be willfully obtuse. Freeza encountering Gotenks doesn't jive no matter how you try to rationalize it, and it's not even the only contradiction between Broly and the anime's RoF arc.
Yeah, actually it turned out that Goku uses the word “kakoku” in the anime retelling of RoF, when talking about his harsh trainings to Freeza, and then in Broly he asks Freeza what that word means.

Are there other contradictions you were thinking of?

I mean, these two contradictions are already some substantial ones. It’s quite clear that Toriyama doesn’t give a shit about whatever Toei added to his outlines (maybe even Toyotaro’s additions considering Vegeta’s powered up Blue form and mastered SSB aren’t in the movie).

Funnily though Toriyama said the movie was the next story after what was currently airing on TV.
So it’s just a big mess. It doesn’t help that not even Toei can keep track or every single addition they made because there are too many Super episodes and they were written by too many people and there were too many series directors.
They should just make movies and avoid us these headaches. But they probably don’t care about inconsistencies.
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Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by The Undying » Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:18 am

emperior wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:17 am
Are there other contradictions you were thinking of?
Nah, the "kakoku" one is the second. There's other continuity nonsense in the anime's RF arc (like making references to anime filler in Z) but those two contradictions are between that and Broly specifically.

I give the extra Blue forms a pass because they're just enhancements of Blue in the manga, but you're right, Toriyama writes DB the way he alone sees its universe. And nothing of value is lost: Resurrection 'F' in the anime is so bad it's impossible to take seriously.
emperior wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:17 am
Funnily though Toriyama said the movie was the next story after what was currently airing on TV.
He did, but he just meant the film follows a story that happened to be airing on TV at the time. The audience was only familiar with the anime's take on that arc when the blurb was originally written.
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