Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
emperior
I Live Here
Posts: 4038
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:52 pm
Location: Dragon World
Contact:

Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by emperior » Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:50 am

The Undying wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:18 am
emperior wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:17 am
Are there other contradictions you were thinking of?
Nah, the "kakoku" one is the second. There's other continuity nonsense in the anime's RF arc (like making references to anime filler in Z) but those two contradictions are between that and Broly specifically.

I give the extra Blue forms a pass because they're just enhancements of Blue in the manga, but you're right, Toriyama writes DB the way he alone sees its universe. And nothing of value is lost: Resurrection 'F' in the anime is so bad it's impossible to take seriously.
emperior wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:17 am
Funnily though Toriyama said the movie was the next story after what was currently airing on TV.
He did, but he just meant the film follows a story that happened to be airing on TV at the time. The audience was only familiar with the anime's take on that arc when the blurb was originally written.
I completely agree with your take on anime’s RoF, which is why I was pleased to know for sure that Toriyama doesn’t consider it at all.

I was worried that his mention of the Namekian Book of Legends meant he put priority on the retelling of his movies considering how they said it was his idea to retell them in the first place, but fortunately that’s not the case.

The manga in this regard does a much better job at retelling Battle of Gods as it’s basically an extended flashback, and Beerus later on even recalls his movie line about Goku being his 2nd strongest opponent (which wasn’t in the manga), and RoF which is just summarized in like a panel or two of dialogue.

I would say that Toriyama for sure is more knowledgeable about Super’s manga which is why it doesn’t seem like his outlines and Broly contradict it, with the only exception being Vegeta not using his powered up Blue form but that’s probably just Toriyama not being particular enough to fully outline and detail the course of battles.

And the script was also finalized around 2017, before that form ever appeared in the anime or manga, and possibly even before mastered SSB made its debut in May 20th 2017.
(Actually Blue is mostly auraless in the movie so it feels like it’s the mastered version too... but why wouldn’t Vegeta use his powered up Blue form which he has shown he can use at will in the Moro arc?)
Last edited by emperior on Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Dragon Wukong
Regular
Posts: 583
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:06 am

Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by Dragon Wukong » Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:55 am

The Undying wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:45 am
You didn't read it, so I'll clarify one more time for clarification's sake:

It's not an argument that Takao Koyama wrote the story. It's not an argument that Toriyama had very little involvement in the JSAT special. It's not an argument that Toriyama has no qualms about overriding details he didn't personally supervise, especially if it comes from Toei (which this special does).

Those are all very easily verifiable facts.

Now that we've settled that, let's put the goalpost back where it was. This discussion was primarily about what exactly the movie's take on Freeza's ignorance of fusion contradicts. Fortunately, it only conflicts with one medium: the anime. The movies and manga are completely fine. Freeza doesn't encounter it in those.

Acknowledging inconsistencies on Toei's side really shouldn't cause you the level of discomfort it apparently does, so you'll want to reflect on that.
I'd stop debating him on this topic honestly. He wants to think that there's no relevant difference and that it somehow contradicts every medium since Frieza saw Kefla fuse (even though it's a completely different kind of fusion and there's no reason for Frieza to think Goku and Vegeta would have access to that kind of fusion at any moment.) He's already made up his mind on the subject and continuing to discuss it here at this point has gotten everything off-topic anyhow.

Anyways, ultimately, DBS Broly contradicted the anime, and BoG implied the ritual happened before RoF. That's the end of that story. Now I'll leave this thread that shouldn't have but ultimately became combative against people who can't have clean debates. (Not you tho)

User avatar
PerhapsTheOtherOne
I Live Here
Posts: 2152
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:36 am

My take on this has always been that the godly training under Whis allowed both Goku and Vegeta to access SSG's power at will.

Obviously, we only saw them make use of SSB from this, but I hypothesize that they've always had the potential to turn SSG from that training but never found any reason to do so since SSB was better in every way besides stamina which it wasn't too shabby in anyways.

In essence, they learned to tap into SSG and simply focused on combining that with their Super Saiyan forms first. The training gave them the potential to become SSG at will, they just used that to create SSB first.

User avatar
Tai Lung
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1510
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:38 pm

Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by Tai Lung » Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:34 pm

The Undying wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:45 am
Tai Lung wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:25 pm
I read it ... but your argument is basically "because I say so" you have no more
You didn't read it, so I'll clarify one more time for clarification's sake:

It's not an argument that Takao Koyama wrote the story. It's not an argument that Toriyama had very little involvement in the JSAT special. It's not an argument that Toriyama has no qualms about overriding details he didn't personally supervise, especially if it comes from Toei (which this special does).

Those are all very easily verifiable facts.

Now that we've settled that, let's put the goalpost back where it was. This discussion was primarily about what exactly the movie's take on Freeza's ignorance of fusion contradicts. Fortunately, it only conflicts with one medium: the anime. The movies and manga are completely fine. Freeza doesn't encounter it in those.

Acknowledging inconsistencies on Toei's side really shouldn't cause you the level of discomfort it apparently does, so you'll want to reflect on that.
so that they would not contradict the manga, neither kefla nor anilaza would have to exist ... because frieza remained watching his battle with all the disaster that kale generated and the explanations of the pride trooper and that dashinkan announced that the merger was allowed.

maybe not with the movies ... depending on if you consider canon

but ok let's pretend that the manga doesn't contradict the movie even though it has done it other times
Image

User avatar
Dragon Wukong
Regular
Posts: 583
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:06 am

Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by Dragon Wukong » Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:20 pm

Tai Lung wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:34 pm
so that they would not contradict the manga, neither kefla nor anilaza would have to exist ... because frieza remained watching his battle with all the disaster that kale generated and the explanations of the pride trooper and that dashinkan announced that the merger was allowed.

maybe not with the movies ... depending on if you consider canon

but ok let's pretend that the manga doesn't contradict the movie even though it has done it other times
Image
That image doesn't contradict the movie, I don't know why you posted it.

User avatar
The Undying
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 280
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:47 pm

Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by The Undying » Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:30 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:55 am
I'd stop debating him on this topic honestly.
Good point. He's already bringing up arguments that I've already addressed, so I see no point in furthering something that clearly isn't conducive.

I will say that this isn't new. The anime has been rife with inconsistencies from very early in its production.
Formerly Marlowe89.

User avatar
Tai Lung
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1510
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:38 pm

Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by Tai Lung » Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:54 pm

The Undying wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:30 pm
I will say that this isn't new. The anime has been rife with inconsistencies from very early in its production.
the manga also has errors ...
Have a good day
Dragon Wukong wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:55 am
You didn't read it, so I'll clarify one more time for clarification's sake:
acting as if you were right does not prove you right .. I also do not see why you take offense because someone used their argument against you
frieza and gogeta use the word gattai to refer to any fusion they have seen ... confirming that frieza did not see any merger before and evidently did manga and anime
Dragon Wukong wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:20 pm
That image doesn't contradict the movie, I don't know why you posted it.
Image

clothes ...

and don't tell me that doesn't matter because toriyama took it quite seriously

Image

User avatar
Dragon Wukong
Regular
Posts: 583
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:06 am

Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by Dragon Wukong » Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:56 pm

Tai Lung wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:54 pm
The Undying wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:30 pm
I will say that this isn't new. The anime has been rife with inconsistencies from very early in its production.
the manga also has errors ... It doesn't have a continuity error in DBS Broly though.
Have a good day
Dragon Wukong wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:55 am
You didn't read it, so I'll clarify one more time for clarification's sake:
acting as if you were right does not prove you right .. I also do not see why you take offense because someone used their argument against you They were right though. Tarble's existence is confirmed by BoG/DBS Broly, but not inherently Aka's. You never used his argument against him. You didn't address his argument at all.
frieza and gogeta use the word gattai to refer to any fusion they have seen ... confirming that frieza did not see any merger before and evidently did manga and anime Stop saying Frieza seeing potara means he should think Goku and Vegeta can fuse without it. It doesn't, that's YOUR baseless assumption. And if others agree with my sentiment, maybe you should accept there's a chance you aren't right.
Dragon Wukong wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:20 pm
That image doesn't contradict the movie, I don't know why you posted it.
Image

clothes ...

and don't tell me that doesn't matter because toriyama took it quite seriously Bardock's clothes got retconned in DBS Broly. Toriyama didn't take the clothing seriously, it's a minor issue. Especially since the page in DBS you linked is just a bonus chapter to say "Yeah the events of the movie happened and were explained to Merus." Toyotaro just forgetting there was battle damage isn't the same as saying a whole sequence of events shown in the anime didn't happen, or that Goku knows something he doesn't actually know.
If you wanna continue this inane discussion, maybe you should make a separate thread instead of responding here though. This has veered needlessly off-topic.

Anyways, movies = SSG ritual, manga = Who knows, anime = training.

User avatar
Super Murjin
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 60
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:42 pm

Re: Exactly “HOW” did Vegeta achieve Super Saiyan God while training under Whis??

Post by Super Murjin » Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:28 pm

god ki, god transformations, the aura of a god ... for a mortal to use and understand how to activate it is part of the reason why Whis was needed to help train Goku and Vegeta. Sure Goku absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God, but later on did he know how to activate it or use the power properly, probably not. And Vegeta had to learn how to acquire the "god ki" and then figure out how to make it his own as well. I feel like fans over complicate this topic way too much. :crazy:

Toppo also needed guidance from a divine being to learn how to trigger the aura of a god. I'm guessing either universe 11's god of destruction or angel helped him get to that point in power.

Making it simple, divine beings are needed unless the individual is beyond a prodigy to be able to learn on their own.

Post Reply