Toriyama's Dragon Ball Super ideas

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Toriyama's Dragon Ball Super ideas

Post by pepd » Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:26 pm

What do we know that was in Toriyama's DBS scripts or ideas that weren't in the final product?
I only know of the BoG scene where everyone goes help against Beerus (even Satan “from the distance”), are there more like that?
I've seen somewhere that Tagoma's participation and fusion mention in BoG where removed, is it true?

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Re: Toriyama's Dragon Ball Super ideas

Post by Dragon Wukong » Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:35 pm

Well, we know Vegito in the Future Trunks arc and Kale in the ToP weren't originally from Toriyama, though both were approved and he ended up creating Caulifla to go with Kale. Zamasu was also originally written as someone who was weak enough that Goku and Vegeta together could hold him off.

We also know Ultra Instinct wasn't originally part of the Tournament of Power, and came from Toei asking Toriyama to create another form for the arc.

All of this info comes from varying Toei/Toyotaro interviews, but if you look it up I'm sure you can find it. Admittedly it's bad practice of me but I don't have the energy to find my sources right now.

It's kind of interesting to try and think of what Toriyama might've been picturing in his head as he wrote down each arc before changes and additions were made. Personally, Ultra Instinct being an addition to the arc leaves me wondering what Toriyama might have been thinking of when he envisioned the finale being a Goku/Frieza teamup. It would've been pretty interesting if he had a Golden Frieza/Goku Blue fend-off in mind, though that's something I wish we personally got instead of the Final Form/Super Saiyan sendoff from the anime version.

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Re: Toriyama's Dragon Ball Super ideas

Post by Matches Malone » Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:06 am

Toriyama gave Black a ssj1 form, but it never made it in the anime, just the manga.

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Re: Toriyama's Dragon Ball Super ideas

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:20 am

I wonder how the plot of the Future Trunks arc would've been affected if Toriyama never changed his mind about fusion. I guess neither Gowasu nor Shin would have gone to the Future timeline, or maybe Black/Zamasu would have destroyed their potara earrings before Goku and Vegeta could fuse.
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Re: Toriyama's Dragon Ball Super ideas

Post by Miracles » Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:06 pm

What's up with TOEI and Toyotaro or even Toriyama himself not releasing plot outlines to the public?
They should display them in a Dragonball Super guide book or interview.

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Re: Toriyama's Dragon Ball Super ideas

Post by Matches Malone » Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:09 pm

Miracles wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:06 pm
What's up with TOEI and Toyotaro or even Toriyama himself not releasing plot outlines to the public?
They should display them in a Dragonball Super guide book or interview.
I'm also surprised we haven't gotten some guide book, as the 3 original anime and manga got plenty of those.

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Re: Toriyama's Dragon Ball Super ideas

Post by Koitsukai » Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:27 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:09 pm
Miracles wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:06 pm
What's up with TOEI and Toyotaro or even Toriyama himself not releasing plot outlines to the public?
They should display them in a Dragonball Super guide book or interview.
I'm also surprised we haven't gotten some guide book, as the 3 original anime and manga got plenty of those.
And there is shitload of unanswered/unexplained phenomena in all three media with the anime having the most of them.
It's been 3 years and we still don't know what SSR Trunks is, or the genki sword, or how could manga SS2 Vegeta outclass SS3 Goku that hard vs SS Black, when they were equals. Good thing V-Jump released some stuff explaining the latest power ups (Blue Kaioken, Evolved Blue... )
DBS really needs a guidebook with all of this stuff in it, including the original plot outlines.

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Re: Toriyama's Dragon Ball Super ideas

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:39 am

Miracles wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:06 pm
What's up with TOEI and Toyotaro or even Toriyama himself not releasing plot outlines to the public?
because they were most likely fruits of brainstorming seasons with no physical evidence of them remaining and probably most of the details forgotten.
Also, you never know when those discarded ideas can be useful, so no reason to waste them to the public if you can use them for something else

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Re: Toriyama's Dragon Ball Super ideas

Post by Peach » Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:18 pm

I'm certain the Yard Rats in the Tournament of Power and the Moro manga weren't made by Toriyama. They use the Toei filler designs.

Image

Image

Seems like many of the Supreme Kai's, fighters, and Destroyers in the Tournament of Power were designed by either Toyotaro and Toei too.

I doubt Toriyama had anything to do with Zuno, the events in between Battle of Gods and F, the Super Human Water saga, the baseball episode, Beerus disguising himself as Monaka, and the Great Saiyaman episodes. To my knowledge he was developing the Champa saga, Zamasu saga, or Tournament of Power when all of that happened.

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Re: Toriyama's Dragon Ball Super ideas

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:32 pm

Peach wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:18 pm
I doubt Toriyama had anything to do with Zuno, the events in between Battle of Gods and F, the Super Human Water saga, the baseball episode, Beerus disguising himself as Monaka, and the Great Saiyaman episodes. To my knowledge he was developing the Champa saga, Zamasu saga, or Tournament of Power when all of that happened.
Those slice of life/comic episodes were basically filler, so he probably didn't have anything to do with them. Though I doubt he had nothing to do with Zuno, since he played an important role in Zamasu's plan and thus was quite a key character to the plot.
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Re: Toriyama's Dragon Ball Super ideas

Post by TobyS » Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:01 pm

Miracles wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:06 pm
What's up with TOEI and Toyotaro or even Toriyama himself not releasing plot outlines to the public?
They should display them in a Dragonball Super guide book or interview.
My theory is that they know a non zero amount of the fanbase consider everything outside the outline bad/non canon.
And so the outline is probably even slimmer then we think.
By releasing it, it will just alienate some of those fans.
I don't think that many, but it's all downside with no upside, so they'd rather keep it secret?
Additionally I think a guidebook would more specifically prove the manga is much more in line with Toriyamas vision, which would only hurt the anime somewhat.

That's the only plausible thing I can think of.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: Toriyama's Dragon Ball Super ideas

Post by Dragon Wukong » Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:35 pm

Peach wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:18 pm
I'm certain the Yard Rats in the Tournament of Power and the Moro manga weren't made by Toriyama. They use the Toei filler designs.

Seems like many of the Supreme Kai's, fighters, and Destroyers in the Tournament of Power were designed by either Toyotaro and Toei too.

I doubt Toriyama had anything to do with Zuno, the events in between Battle of Gods and F, the Super Human Water saga, the baseball episode, Beerus disguising himself as Monaka, and the Great Saiyaman episodes. To my knowledge he was developing the Champa saga, Zamasu saga, or Tournament of Power when all of that happened.
Zuno was from Toriyama, and is a consistent part of the plot for the U6 tournament between mediums and is just generally a classic joke with his style.

The only new fighters from the ToP confirmed designed by Toriyama were Jiren, Toppo, Dyspo, Ribrianne, and Caulifla. It's very likely IMO that Damon/Damom was also designed by Toriyama, as he appeared heavily in early marketing alongside Ribrianne and the aforementioned pride troopers, as well as Quitela, who was also one of the first designs submitted for the arc along with the three pride troopers, as well as being in the outline as the one who defeats Piccolo. Every other fighter from the ToP, if I recall correctly, was maded by Toei. Including Kale, who was added after Broly was decided to be the next film.

The in-between arcs are almost certainly "filler" (in a sense,) but I wouldn't be surprised if an idea here or there came from Toriyama, who was also involved in in-between arcs for DBZ.

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Re: Toriyama's Dragon Ball Super ideas

Post by ShaggyBlanco » Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:36 pm

Apparently he came up with the elimination order for the ToP, the anime and manga have different takes on it so I guess it wasn't for every character
Q: How much of the story was written out in Toriyama-sensei‘s original draft?
A: Nakamura: The course of events for the Universe 7 warriors was written out in a document from beginning to end. For instance, who Piccolo fights and loses to, and who ultimately survives. Plus the course of the battle between Universe 7 and Universe 11… all of the main points were written out.
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... vival-arc/

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Re: Toriyama's Dragon Ball Super ideas

Post by emperior » Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:26 am

ShaggyBlanco wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:36 pm
Apparently he came up with the elimination order for the ToP, the anime and manga have different takes on it so I guess it wasn't for every character
Q: How much of the story was written out in Toriyama-sensei‘s original draft?
A: Nakamura: The course of events for the Universe 7 warriors was written out in a document from beginning to end. For instance, who Piccolo fights and loses to, and who ultimately survives. Plus the course of the battle between Universe 7 and Universe 11… all of the main points were written out.
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... vival-arc/
Yes. And Toriyama said that the manga’s tournament of power would have different developments from the manga.

By the way he also supplied the anime staff with the tingly back information and many other stuff, as they said he was very active with the writing of that arc.

Maybe Toei had no idea what to do with the U7 fighters which is why they asked Toriyama and he supplied only them with that document outlining how they lose, while Toyotaro had some freedom to deviate a bit.

Still, I wonder if this piece of information is truly correct. Maybe Toei actually deviated from this document Toriyama gave them? He probably wasn’t very particular about it.

I say it because there’s no way he told them that 18 loses against a clearly not Toriyama character like Anilaza, and same for Tenshinan. Even Roshi’s situation is weird because he basically lost due to overusing Mafuba and I doubt it was Toriyama’s idea to have him spam that move. Maybe he just wrote that after Roshi goes through some very tiring battles he’s convinced to leave the ring by Vegeta.

18 losing against Damon and Tenshinan losing against Frost is much more believable to be something Toriyama wrote and, in fact, he heavily supervised the part where 18 loses in the manga.
But there’s no way he wrote that Roshi loses against Jiren.
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Re: Toriyama's Dragon Ball Super ideas

Post by Dragon Wukong » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:28 pm

emperior wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:26 am
Yes. And Toriyama said that the manga’s tournament of power would have different developments from the manga.

By the way he also supplied the anime staff with the tingly back information and many other stuff, as they said he was very active with the writing of that arc.

Maybe Toei had no idea what to do with the U7 fighters which is why they asked Toriyama and he supplied only them with that document outlining how they lose, while Toyotaro had some freedom to deviate a bit.

Still, I wonder if this piece of information is truly correct. Maybe Toei actually deviated from this document Toriyama gave them? He probably wasn’t very particular about it.

I say it because there’s no way he told them that 18 loses against a clearly not Toriyama character like Anilaza, and same for Tenshinan. Even Roshi’s situation is weird because he basically lost due to overusing Mafuba and I doubt it was Toriyama’s idea to have him spam that move. Maybe he just wrote that after Roshi goes through some very tiring battles he’s convinced to leave the ring by Vegeta.

18 losing against Damon and Tenshinan losing against Frost is much more believable to be something Toriyama wrote and, in fact, he heavily supervised the part where 18 loses in the manga.
But there’s no way he wrote that Roshi loses against Jiren.
My general assumption is he was very specific about how some characters go out but not others. I.e. I assume Krillin being taken out by Frost, Piccolo by Damon, Vegeta by Jiren, and the final stand being Frieza/Goku double knockout with Jiren, with 17 in the arena were all the "Toriyama-explicit" knockouts.

I still feel like Damon was a Toriyama design. He appeared in merchandise before Kale or Caulifla ever did, and had an entire background/moveset written for him (that went unused presumably due to rewrites like with Kale.) Honestly, it's a shame his "ninja-bug" background with exploding cicada shell substitutes never went used. It sounded like a great idea.

Honestly, I'm more interested in the ideas Toei had that went unused due to production/time constraints. Before Toriyama created Caulifla, Kale had a well-defined relationship with Cabba, and episode 100 made it seem like her power alone was going to be important in the tournament. I genuinely believe her taking control of her own strength was originally going to put her in Kefla's position against Goku, before one of the writers decided it'd be cooler to fuse them. It feels like the manga may have gone more in the direction the anime seemed to have originally planned for her.

Other oddities include the brief stint where Gamisaras was a purple insect like Damom, instead of an invisible man.

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Re: Toriyama's Dragon Ball Super ideas

Post by emperior » Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:19 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:28 pm
emperior wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:26 am
Yes. And Toriyama said that the manga’s tournament of power would have different developments from the manga.

By the way he also supplied the anime staff with the tingly back information and many other stuff, as they said he was very active with the writing of that arc.

Maybe Toei had no idea what to do with the U7 fighters which is why they asked Toriyama and he supplied only them with that document outlining how they lose, while Toyotaro had some freedom to deviate a bit.

Still, I wonder if this piece of information is truly correct. Maybe Toei actually deviated from this document Toriyama gave them? He probably wasn’t very particular about it.

I say it because there’s no way he told them that 18 loses against a clearly not Toriyama character like Anilaza, and same for Tenshinan. Even Roshi’s situation is weird because he basically lost due to overusing Mafuba and I doubt it was Toriyama’s idea to have him spam that move. Maybe he just wrote that after Roshi goes through some very tiring battles he’s convinced to leave the ring by Vegeta.

18 losing against Damon and Tenshinan losing against Frost is much more believable to be something Toriyama wrote and, in fact, he heavily supervised the part where 18 loses in the manga.
But there’s no way he wrote that Roshi loses against Jiren.
My general assumption is he was very specific about how some characters go out but not others. I.e. I assume Krillin being taken out by Frost, Piccolo by Damon, Vegeta by Jiren, and the final stand being Frieza/Goku double knockout with Jiren, with 17 in the arena were all the "Toriyama-explicit" knockouts.

I still feel like Damon was a Toriyama design. He appeared in merchandise before Kale or Caulifla ever did, and had an entire background/moveset written for him (that went unused presumably due to rewrites like with Kale.) Honestly, it's a shame his "ninja-bug" background with exploding cicada shell substitutes never went used. It sounded like a great idea.

Honestly, I'm more interested in the ideas Toei had that went unused due to production/time constraints. Before Toriyama created Caulifla, Kale had a well-defined relationship with Cabba, and episode 100 made it seem like her power alone was going to be important in the tournament. I genuinely believe her taking control of her own strength was originally going to put her in Kefla's position against Goku, before one of the writers decided it'd be cooler to fuse them. It feels like the manga may have gone more in the direction the anime seemed to have originally planned for her.

Other oddities include the brief stint where Gamisaras was a purple insect like Damom, instead of an invisible man.
My theory is that Toei originally came up with that Damon exploding concept, but then Toriyama for some reason got particular about the whole thing and wrote that Damon is very very small etcetera. They would never throw out something written by Toriyama.

It would explain why episode 119 was so terribly directed and disconnected from the other episodes, as they probably rushed it a lot.

The fact the battle with Damon is basically the same in the manga may mean I am correct.
It’s basically one of the few fights which the anime and manga have in common for the Tournament of Power.
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Re: Toriyama's Dragon Ball Super ideas

Post by Sadala Elite » Wed Jul 08, 2020 2:07 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:06 am
Toriyama gave Black a ssj1 form, but it never made it in the anime, just the manga.
That's because in the anime version, SSJ Rose is Black's version of SSJ1, unlike in the manga where its his version of SSB.

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Re: Toriyama's Dragon Ball Super ideas

Post by Sadala Elite » Wed Jul 08, 2020 2:12 pm

Miracles wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:06 pm
What's up with TOEI and Toyotaro or even Toriyama himself not releasing plot outlines to the public?
They should display them in a Dragonball Super guide book or interview.
Probably because a strict outline never actually existed and its really just Toriyama brainstorming ideas then forgetting about them lol.

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Re: Toriyama's Dragon Ball Super ideas

Post by pepd » Wed Jul 08, 2020 4:22 pm

Miracles wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:06 pm
What's up with TOEI and Toyotaro or even Toriyama himself not releasing plot outlines to the public?
They should display them in a Dragonball Super guide book or interview.
I doubt they will release it soon since it would probably affect the sales, but hopefully Shueisha/Toei releases a manga/anime guide when Moro arc gets adapted, when the continuities are more unified and there is new anime merch

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Re: Toriyama's Dragon Ball Super ideas

Post by Dragon Wukong » Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:23 pm

Sadala Elite wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 2:07 pm
That's because in the anime version, SSJ Rose is Black's version of SSJ1, unlike in the manga where its his version of SSB.
This isn't ever actually stated. I tried looking for it but never found it.

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