Toriyama's Dragon Ball Super ideas

[Dragon Wukong]

Keep in mind that Toei's idea of Black may have originated back when SSGSS was just the Super Saiyan of a Saiyan whose base form had godly strength. Resurrection F's depiction of SSGSS slowly being retconned so Goku/Vegeta still had their regular Super Saiyan forms may have muddied things up a bit.

[Aim]

You're still not getting my point...

If Super Saiyan Rosé IS Super Saiyan 1 like some people here said, why can't Goku Black reach this state:



I am not even making a statement, I am just theorycrafting.

I do get your point, the same can be said with SSGSS, if SSGSS is just Super Saiyan 1 with god power, why can't they just evolve to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 2.

Keep in mind that Toei's idea of Black may have originated back when SSGSS was just the Super Saiyan of a Saiyan whose base form had godly strength. Resurrection F's depiction of SSGSS slowly being retconned so Goku/Vegeta still had their regular Super Saiyan forms may have muddied things up a bit.

I heard something about that years ago, something about Toei confusing Black's new form with just a regular Super Saiyan because Toriyama's notes were very vague to say the least.

"It is said that Saiyans can gain control of 'god-like power without changing form. But if those god-like Saiyans change into Super Saiyan...then the power of Super Saiyan God SS is born!"

Could this just be a very vague way of saying "the power of Super Saiyan God" as opposed to just only god ki? They could have got those vague notes from Toriyama and then he elaborated later on.

To be honest, this is why Toriyama should just explain things more, especially things like this, oh my this is just so vague it can be interpreted in different ways. I'd love it if he just wrote out stuff a little more detailed, what could he possibly be busy with. Oh well, can't force the poor man.

[Dragon Wukong]

I heard something about that years ago, something about Toei confusing Black's new form with just a regular Super Saiyan because Toriyama's notes were very vague to say the least.

"It is said that Saiyans can gain control of 'god-like power without changing form. But if those god-like Saiyans change into Super Saiyan...then the power of Super Saiyan God SS is born!"

Could this just be a very vague way of saying "the power of Super Saiyan God" as opposed to just only god ki? They could have got those vague notes from Toriyama and then he elaborated later on.

To be honest, this is why Toriyama should just explain things more, especially things like this, oh my this is just so vague it can be interpreted in different ways. I'd love it if he just wrote out stuff a little more detailed, what could he possibly be busy with. Oh well, can't force the poor man.

Well keep in mind it's not just a matter of vagueness. Super Saiyan God was considered a form that, as far as Toriyama was concerned, would never be used again because it got absorbed. And there are interviews confirming this after Battle of Gods. And the implication at the time Resurrection F was released, based on statements such as the one above, was that SSGSS was intended to replace Super Saiyan entirely. The way Goku Black's forms work is entirely in line with how SSGSS worked in Resurrection F (which teased Goku Black at the end in the extended edition.) But starting with Universe 6, this line of thought seemed to be slowly retconned and ignored by Toriyama, and more explicitly so, by Toyotaro.

This is entirely a presumption, but I would not be surprised at all if the mechanics of Black's forms in the anime simply came from them having conceptualized the arc during the production of the extended edition of Resurrection F, leading to the mechanics of his SSGSS behaving more similarly to pre-retcon SSGSS. After all, we see Black's base form wields godly strength, so by the descriptor above it would make sense that when he transforms his Super Saiyan is SSGSS like in Resurrection F.

Well, that's just my theory anyhow. I don't think it matters all that much in particular.

[pepd]

I like the “absorbed” SSG that Toriyama presented first because it simplifies the transformations; but at the same time, it reduces it to two really powerful forms, so then there is the problem of Gokū and Vegeta being too op for their own good (both in-universe and as characters). There is also the fact that SS and SSG are cool and would be missed.
At least now they can use just the required power to make the fights interesting (for them and for the readers).

I wonder if Toriyama has stopped to contemplate and fix his initial idea on how SSG works. Maybe he hasn't and SS and SSG are just added, or maybe he just lives with the contradiction and considers both absorbed ssg power and ss&ssg

[Aim]

I heard something about that years ago, something about Toei confusing Black's new form with just a regular Super Saiyan because Toriyama's notes were very vague to say the least.

"It is said that Saiyans can gain control of 'god-like power without changing form. But if those god-like Saiyans change into Super Saiyan...then the power of Super Saiyan God SS is born!"

Could this just be a very vague way of saying "the power of Super Saiyan God" as opposed to just only god ki? They could have got those vague notes from Toriyama and then he elaborated later on.

To be honest, this is why Toriyama should just explain things more, especially things like this, oh my this is just so vague it can be interpreted in different ways. I'd love it if he just wrote out stuff a little more detailed, what could he possibly be busy with. Oh well, can't force the poor man.

Well keep in mind it's not just a matter of vagueness. Super Saiyan God was considered a form that, as far as Toriyama was concerned, would never be used again because it got absorbed. And there are interviews confirming this after Battle of Gods. And the implication at the time Resurrection F was released, based on statements such as the one above, was that SSGSS was intended to replace Super Saiyan entirely. The way Goku Black's forms work is entirely in line with how SSGSS worked in Resurrection F (which teased Goku Black at the end in the extended edition.) But starting with Universe 6, this line of thought seemed to be slowly retconned and ignored by Toriyama, and more explicitly so, by Toyotaro.

This is entirely a presumption, but I would not be surprised at all if the mechanics of Black's forms in the anime simply came from them having conceptualized the arc during the production of the extended edition of Resurrection F, leading to the mechanics of his SSGSS behaving more similarly to pre-retcon SSGSS. After all, we see Black's base form wields godly strength, so by the descriptor above it would make sense that when he transforms his Super Saiyan is SSGSS like in Resurrection F.

Well, that's just my theory anyhow. I don't think it matters all that much in particular.

Could you link me those interviews? That'd be great, thanks.

Honestly, I'm unsure what to think at this point, I mean, SSGSS replacing Super Saiyan seems really strong, almost too strong.

I'm just going by what the guide says, I wish Toriyama would come out and tell us what the original plan was, this is why I feel like if he really does love his creation so much, he should at least be more specific, even drawing a few outlines, heck, off topic a bit, but Toriyama's designs could have easily replaced Yamamuro's.

[Dragon Wukong]

Could you link me those interviews? That'd be great, thanks.

Honestly, I'm unsure what to think at this point, I mean, SSGSS replacing Super Saiyan seems really strong, almost too strong.

I'm just going by what the guide says, I wish Toriyama would come out and tell us what the original plan was, this is why I feel like if he really does love his creation so much, he should at least be more specific, even drawing a few outlines, heck, off topic a bit, but Toriyama's designs could have easily replaced Yamamuro's.

Here.

Will Goku be able to transform into [Super Saiyan] God in the future?
I think you’ll understand if you watch [the movie], but Goku has already absorbed [Super Saiyan] God’s power and made it his own, so there is no need for him to transform into [Super Saiyan] God. Goku basically only thinks of fighting as a sporting match, so borrowing the power of five people isn’t fair, and he resisted doing that; however, it seems his curiosity towards the realm that lay even further beyond him won out.

This was definitely the case in Resurrection F, where it was implied that Super Saiyan Blue came about from going Super Saiyan after Goku and Vegeta mastered this power in their base forms.

[Aim]

Could you link me those interviews? That'd be great, thanks.

Honestly, I'm unsure what to think at this point, I mean, SSGSS replacing Super Saiyan seems really strong, almost too strong.

I'm just going by what the guide says, I wish Toriyama would come out and tell us what the original plan was, this is why I feel like if he really does love his creation so much, he should at least be more specific, even drawing a few outlines, heck, off topic a bit, but Toriyama's designs could have easily replaced Yamamuro's.

Here.

Will Goku be able to transform into [Super Saiyan] God in the future?
I think you’ll understand if you watch [the movie], but Goku has already absorbed [Super Saiyan] God’s power and made it his own, so there is no need for him to transform into [Super Saiyan] God. Goku basically only thinks of fighting as a sporting match, so borrowing the power of five people isn’t fair, and he resisted doing that; however, it seems his curiosity towards the realm that lay even further beyond him won out.

This was definitely the case in Resurrection F, where it was implied that Super Saiyan Blue came about from going Super Saiyan after Goku and Vegeta mastered this power in their base forms.

Strange, I wonder if Toriyama actively stated to the staff and Toyotarō that Goku and Vegeta could still go regular Super Saiyan’s? I mean, we still have the whole Universe 6 tournament before Black even shows up.

[Luso Saiyan]

Strange, I wonder if Toriyama actively stated to the staff and Toyotarō that Goku and Vegeta could still go regular Super Saiyan’s? I mean, we still have the whole Universe 6 tournament before Black even shows up.

It's a pity, but it's more likely that pressure was made for the transformations not being completely replaced than it was Toriyama going against a logical concept he took the time to establish.

[emperior]

Strange, I wonder if Toriyama actively stated to the staff and Toyotarō that Goku and Vegeta could still go regular Super Saiyan’s? I mean, we still have the whole Universe 6 tournament before Black even shows up.

It's a pity, but it's more likely that pressure was made for the transformations not being completely replaced than it was Toriyama going against a logical concept he took the time to establish.

In my opinion that was Toriyama’s idea to bring the original SS forms back during the U6 tournament.

At first in the anime there was a lot of confusion and the “two base theory” up until Goku brought back SSG in the Tournament of Power. Mostly because of Toei’s poor power scaling in some occasions.

Toyotaro already realized the godly base was no more, or at least it was something Goku and Vegeta could still use with God Ki and so he brought back SSG to replace it. Note how in the manga SSG has no stamina issues at all so it’s basically like the base state.

So the normal state Goku used in RoF is no more, and it’s now SSG. One could headcanon that Goku and Vegeta mastered the state in their 3 years of ROSAT training. Out of universe it’s either Toriyama forgot or that they purposefully decided to replace the godly base state with SSG to avoid confusion and to still keep the iconic yellow forms.

[Aim]

In my opinion that was Toriyama’s idea to bring the original SS forms back during the U6 tournament.

At first in the anime there was a lot of confusion and the “two base theory” up until Goku brought back SSG in the Tournament of Power. Mostly because of Toei’s poor power scaling in some occasions.

Toyotaro already realized the godly base was no more, or at least it was something Goku and Vegeta could still use with God Ki and so he brought back SSG to replace it. Note how in the manga SSG has no stamina issues at all so it’s basically like the base state.

So the normal state Goku used in RoF is no more, and it’s now SSG. One could headcanon that Goku and Vegeta mastered the state in their 3 years of ROSAT training. Out of universe it’s either Toriyama forgot or that they purposefully decided to replace the godly base state with SSG to avoid confusion and to still keep the iconic yellow forms.

I feel like it's better that Toriyama would have done that, can you imagine them only going SSGSS? It would be hard to then explain how they'd go about transforming into SS2 or 3, instead of just saying "using SS is just more effective with SSG".

I do remember a fan name for those godly forms in Super Saiyan being "Chou Super Saiyan", or Super Saiyan with godly strength, I mean, if Goku absorbed SSG and made that into his base, what stops him from doing it with other transformations? SSG being a transformation kind of hints to a multiplier.

[emperior]

In my opinion that was Toriyama’s idea to bring the original SS forms back during the U6 tournament.

At first in the anime there was a lot of confusion and the “two base theory” up until Goku brought back SSG in the Tournament of Power. Mostly because of Toei’s poor power scaling in some occasions.

Toyotaro already realized the godly base was no more, or at least it was something Goku and Vegeta could still use with God Ki and so he brought back SSG to replace it. Note how in the manga SSG has no stamina issues at all so it’s basically like the base state.

So the normal state Goku used in RoF is no more, and it’s now SSG. One could headcanon that Goku and Vegeta mastered the state in their 3 years of ROSAT training. Out of universe it’s either Toriyama forgot or that they purposefully decided to replace the godly base state with SSG to avoid confusion and to still keep the iconic yellow forms.

I feel like it's better that Toriyama would have done that, can you imagine them only going SSGSS? It would be hard to then explain how they'd go about transforming into SS2 or 3, instead of just saying "using SS is just more effective with SSG".

I do remember a fan name for those godly forms in Super Saiyan being "Chou Super Saiyan", or Super Saiyan with godly strength, I mean, if Goku absorbed SSG and made that into his base, what stops him from doing it with other transformations? SSG being a transformation kind of hints to a multiplier.

Yeah it was definitely for the best. It allowed for better power scaling too as for example base RoF Goku would have been too much for Future Trunks to handle, while seeing Goku use SS3 against him served to better showcase Trunks’ level.

And, as you said, we would have expected things such as Goku absorbing the power of his other forms.
Heck, many more might have expected SSB2 and 3 and even SSG on top of the godly base form, which would have been a dumb expectation but I am sure eventually some people would have wondered about that.

[Aim]

I feel like it's better that Toriyama would have done that, can you imagine them only going SSGSS? It would be hard to then explain how they'd go about transforming into SS2 or 3, instead of just saying "using SS is just more effective with SSG".

I do remember a fan name for those godly forms in Super Saiyan being "Chou Super Saiyan", or Super Saiyan with godly strength, I mean, if Goku absorbed SSG and made that into his base, what stops him from doing it with other transformations? SSG being a transformation kind of hints to a multiplier.

Yeah it was definitely for the best. It allowed for better power scaling too as for example base RoF Goku would have been too much for Future Trunks to handle, while seeing Goku use SS3 against him served to better showcase Trunks’ level.

And, as you said, we would have expected things such as Goku absorbing the power of his other forms.
Heck, many more might have expected SSB2 and 3 and even SSG on top of the godly base form, which would have been a dumb expectation but I am sure eventually some people would have wondered about that.
[/quote]

Going back to the Goku Black discussion, one of my theories is that Toei went with the whole "Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more.", and decided to change it up a bit so that Goku Black's Super Saiyan is in fact, a result of him mastering Son Goku's power, allowing him to access his own version of Super Saiyan, his mastered "beautiful" version of Super Saiyan, a truly "Goku Black version of Super Saiyan". Just a theory though.

[BWri]

I like the “absorbed” SSG that Toriyama presented first because it simplifies the transformations; but at the same time, it reduces it to two really powerful forms, so then there is the problem of Gokū and Vegeta being too op for their own good (both in-universe and as characters). There is also the fact that SS and SSG are cool and would be missed.
At least now they can use just the required power to make the fights interesting (for them and for the readers).

I wonder if Toriyama has stopped to contemplate and fix his initial idea on how SSG works. Maybe he hasn't and SS and SSG are just added, or maybe he just lives with the contradiction and considers both absorbed ssg power and ss&ssg

I don't think what they have now makes them any less OP. In both scenarios they are essentially holding back, whether in lesser SSJ forms or using advanced Ki Control to match their opponents.

I like streamlining the transformations to just the god forms because it also shows how proficient they are with the Ki Control of SSB further showing their mastery as fighters. Then fights like SSB Goku vs Krillin make more sense because he has absolute control over his power at all times.

Now, the redundancy of lesser forms makes it seem like Goku and Vegeta aren't even close to mastering SSB or Ki Control especially how the anime used them. The anime makes it seem like Goku hasn't even mastered MSSJ since he's usually back in base after every skirmish.

[Aim]

I don't think what they have now makes them any less OP. In both scenarios they are essentially holding back, whether in lesser SSJ forms or using advanced Ki Control to match their opponents.

I like streamlining the transformations to just the god forms because it also shows how proficient they are with the Ki Control of SSB further showing their mastery as fighters. Then fights like SSB Goku vs Krillin make more sense because he has absolute control over his power at all times.

Now, the redundancy of lesser forms makes it seem like Goku and Vegeta aren't even close to mastering SSB or Ki Control especially how the anime used them. The anime makes it seem like Goku hasn't even mastered MSSJ since he's usually back in base after every skirmish.

I mean, I don't know, it strikes me as really weird to have base be SSG, then SS be SSGSS, though I do admit I would be fine with it if it stayed.

I really like Toriyama's take on SSGSS, it's so much more powerful as we saw in Broly than what the Toei staff and Toyotaro envisioned it.