SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

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SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by GodVegetto91 » Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:01 pm

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... -yamamuro/
Please tell us about the guest characters Beerus and Whis, and Super Saiyan God.

Beerus and Whis are characters who already existed at the scenario stage. Beerus originally had a lizard-like form, but at Toriyama-sensei’s idea, he ultimately became an Egyptian-style cat character. I handled the roughs for Super Saiyan God. It was “a being that surpasses everything” so I drew a character more built than Super Saiyan, with a cape, but then illustrations with a completely different feel came back from Toriyama-sensei…. It was too different from my own internal image, so I tried suggesting the more sturdily-drawn character one more time, and then Sensei told me that it really was all wrong. (laughs) It had always gone through with a single check [before], but this time, we had that sort of exchange many times. Please check how Super Saiyan God is drawn at the movie theater.
So what happened after the Beerus Arc?

Frieza got re-introduced and fucked that up. Now a mortal space alien simply trains for 4 months and surpasses the SUPER SAIYAN VERSION of that all powerful godly being that supposively “surpasses everything”. Then the universe 6 Arc happens and beyond, and suddenly you have nearly a dozen characters who could defeat initial SSJ Blue! If that isn’t an upfront to reason, logic, and the respect the wondrous God form deserves, then I don’t know what is.

What do you guys think?

In the Anime version you even had God Goku being powerful enough to create universal destroying shockwaves just by fist clashing another God! After that, all these random characters come and make a complete joke of SSJ Blue, an even stronger version of the God form!
Last edited by GodVegetto91 on Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything.”

Post by Psajdak » Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:36 pm

Because shonen.

First time it appeared, Super Saiyan was supposed to be the ultimate state, but then androids came, and fucked everything up.

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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything.”

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:48 pm

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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything.”

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:58 pm

Yes, it was supposed to be a being that surpassed everything in the BoG movie.

We know that in DB, no matter how strong a transformation is, there will always be some villain to match it. The Super Saiyan was seen as something legendary in Namek and in the following arc that form was overcome by several characters

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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything.”

Post by Matches Malone » Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:05 am

Simple, as far as everyone involved with BOG was concerned, the movie was going to be a one off story. I think the ideas of a SsjG and God of destruction would've been saved for a lot later if they knew things were going to last as long as they have. Just look at the form's name, it has finality written all over it. Apart from SsjG, Toriyama won't even allow anyone to get ahead of Beerus because he was intended as the be all end all of Goku's journey, so despite continuing past BOG, he still wants that to remain true.

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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything.”

Post by pepd » Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:08 am

“I handled the roughs for Super Saiyan God. It was “a being that surpasses everything” so I drew a character more built than Super Saiyan, with a cape” I think he was talking about the design process, and that that was the idea behind his design, not that that was the actual power/tier of SSG, also, the movie wasn't considering future DB.
I agree on the criticism against Frīza being ~SSB, and that RoF and SSB was handled poorly. As for the other characters that surpassed SSG, considering your rewrite, I suppose you are not talking about the other Hakaishin and Angels, but the mortals from other universes? If so, is not that they are random people, or became that strong out of nowhere, they are the strongest of their universes and had a parallel, long story, is just that we haven't seen it.

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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything.”

Post by Miracles » Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:18 am

pepd wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:08 am
“I handled the roughs for Super Saiyan God. It was “a being that surpasses everything” so I drew a character more built than Super Saiyan, with a cape” I think he was talking about the design process, and that that was the idea behind his design, not that that was the actual power/tier of SSG, also, the movie wasn't considering future DB.
I agree on the criticism against Frīza being ~SSB, and that RoF and SSB was handled poorly. As for the other characters that surpassed SSG, considering your rewrite, I suppose you are not talking about the other Hakaishin and Angels, but the mortals from other universes? If so, is not that they are random people, or became that strong out of nowhere, they are the strongest of their universes and had a parallel, long story, is just that we haven't seen it.
Actually, Yamamuro drew his design based off the descriptive power of "SSG surpasses everything." Notice the quotations for that specific line. That's why he wanted him to look more buff than SSJ and with a cape. To depict that new power. However, Toriyama didn't approve of the appearance. Giving him a more slim look as we see.

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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything.”

Post by emperior » Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:33 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:48 pm
Capitalism, baby! Merchandise needs selling because capitalism requires that sweet, sweet unsustainable growth!
This has absolutely nothing to do with capitalism, it’s not about politics. Why do you have to bring here this stuff in the first place? It’s a Dragon Ball forum.

Super Saiyan God was surpassed because it had to or else how do we have some progression? It’s the same as the original Super Saiyan.

What’s more inherent to the thread is that some stuff happened in the story which may have left some people bitter. Battle of Gods hyped up SSG as a whole new realm of power, yet by the next movie it had already been surpassed by Freeza training for a mere 4 months and by Goku and Vegeta achieving yet another level.
Personally I don’t have a problem with Freeza being that much of a prodigy, but I would have preferred it if
most of his Resurrection F gains came from mental training in hell.

I also have no problems with the existence of beings like Hit or Jiren. They come from different universes, and Beerus hyped up the other universes so I was exactly expecting there to be strong beings.

The thing I take issue with is old characters reaching that level way too easily. Future Trunks was able to get on that level just by raging in the anime, and Gohan reached Super Saiyan Blue levels of power in just a day of training. I also take minor issue with Android 17 being magically on par with it just by beating up thugs.
The situation could have been handled better.
Toriyama decided to not have Goku beat Beerus to keep the dignity of the God of Destruction, but then unfortunately had no problems ruining the dignity of divine Saiyan forms.

This has resulted in the Godly Saiyan forms feeling underwhelming, and just a small power boost. Hopefully Ultra Instinct will be what Super Saiyan God was always meant to be: a level of power so high that very few people can reach and surely not in a day of training.
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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything.”

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:44 am

It's a shonen anime, of course there will be a lot of power creep. Why are you surprised? Shall we talk about the villains? Perfect Cell was supposed to be the most powerful and perfect being in the universe, but now I'm pretty sure even Krillin could oneshot him.
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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything.”

Post by Jack Bz » Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:05 am

This could have been avoided if ssj god was treated like Beerus and was kept as a milestone the characters have to reach after getting a taste of it. That has to be the biggest power retcon in all of dragon ball, having ssj god going from about 60% of Beerus' power to less than 1% of it. I don't think it's a coincidence that Toriyama's design of ultra instinct was just an ssj god recolour; it's basically course correction on that original concept imo.

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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything.”

Post by emperior » Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:22 am

Jack Bz wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:05 am
This could have been avoided if ssj god was treated like Beerus and was kept as a milestone the characters have to reach after getting a taste of it. That has to be the biggest power retcon in all of dragon ball, having ssj god going from about 60% of Beerus' power to less than 1% of it. I don't think it's a coincidence that Toriyama's design of ultra instinct was just an ssj god recolour; it's basically course correction on that original concept imo.
Yeah the retcon was too big, but that’s only the case in the anime and that’s because Blue Kaioken ruins things.

But in the manga I think it might still be possible for Beerus to have used 70% of his real power in the fight with Goku.
Blue could have been just a 65% of Beerus by Resurrection F, a very slight % increase by the U6 Tournament and a 70% or more when finally perfected in the FT arc.
As of right now both Goku and Vegeta may be around 80% of Beerus’ full power, when using their respective full strength. But possibly even more as Goku was quite close to Moro in full power, and the latter claimed to have surpassed the Gods.

I still agree that Super Saiyan God and its level of power should have been treated with more respect.
And I too believe that Ultra Instinct may be course correction.
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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything.”

Post by Jack Bz » Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:33 am

emperior wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:22 am
Jack Bz wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:05 am
This could have been avoided if ssj god was treated like Beerus and was kept as a milestone the characters have to reach after getting a taste of it. That has to be the biggest power retcon in all of dragon ball, having ssj god going from about 60% of Beerus' power to less than 1% of it. I don't think it's a coincidence that Toriyama's design of ultra instinct was just an ssj god recolour; it's basically course correction on that original concept imo.
Yeah the retcon was too big, but that’s only the case in the anime and that’s because Blue Kaioken ruins things.

But in the manga I think it might still be possible for Beerus to have used 70% of his real power in the fight with Goku.
Blue could have been just a 65% of Beerus by Resurrection F, a very slight % increase by the U6 Tournament and a 70% or more when finally perfected in the FT arc.
As of right now both Goku and Vegeta may be around 80% of Beerus’ full power, when using their respective full strength. But possibly even more as Goku was quite close to Moro in full power, and the latter claimed to have surpassed the Gods.

I still agree that Super Saiyan God and its level of power should have been treated with more respect.
And I too believe that Ultra Instinct may be course correction.
I can't say I agree with this, other than the Moro arc estimations. The only time it was mentioned in the manga that Goku or Vegeta might be more powerful than Beerus specifically was with SSB Vegito in the FT arc, which definitely heavily implies that Beerus is blue fusion tier as it's not clear if Vegito actually is more powerful than Beerus. And I don't think 1 super saiyan blue alone is 70% of that power given how insanely powerful fusion is.

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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything.”

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:56 am

Being called the Strongest in the Universe means absolutely nothing in this franchise and never has. In the Saiyan arc, Vegeta claimed to be the strongest guy, the root of all evil, etc. Then it was retconned that he was always a small fry barely stronger than some of Frieza's weaker mooks like Cui, not least Frieza himself. It's a battle manga franchise, the scale of the universe keeps expanding and every villain has to be a bigger threat than the last.

In the BoG movie, Super Saiyan God ain't meant to be all that impressive anyway. It allows Goku to spar with Beerus, but it only lasts like five minutes and Beerus of course was barely using a fraction of his power for the entire fight, so the movie itself subverts the expectation that Super Saiyan God is the amazing be-all-end-all power in the universe. Even after all the threats that have rolled up, Beerus is still a huge milestone of power that Goku and Vegeta are living up to - it's pretty much unheard of for an antagonist to not be concretely surpassed by the heroes seven years after his debut. That's pretty great, right?

The one theme that BoG, and the whole franchise from the very beginning, hammers in is that there's always someone better out there. Whenever Goku gets too comfortable in his pond, he gets thrown into the ocean and realises he's still a little fish. It can be annoying and inconsistent sometimes, but it's something I've really come to appreciate over time.
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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything.”

Post by Aim » Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:43 am

LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:56 am
Being called the Strongest in the Universe means absolutely nothing in this franchise and never has. In the Saiyan arc, Vegeta claimed to be the strongest guy, the root of all evil, etc. Then it was retconned that he was always a small fry barely stronger than some of Frieza's weaker mooks like Cui, not least Frieza himself. It's a battle manga franchise, the scale of the universe keeps expanding and every villain has to be a bigger threat than the last.

In the BoG movie, Super Saiyan God ain't meant to be all that impressive anyway. It allows Goku to spar with Beerus, but it only lasts like five minutes and Beerus of course was barely using a fraction of his power for the entire fight, so the movie itself subverts the expectation that Super Saiyan God is the amazing be-all-end-all power in the universe. Even after all the threats that have rolled up, Beerus is still a huge milestone of power that Goku and Vegeta are living up to - it's pretty much unheard of for an antagonist to not be concretely surpassed by the heroes seven years after his debut. That's pretty great, right?

The one theme that BoG, and the whole franchise from the very beginning, hammers in is that there's always someone better out there. Whenever Goku gets too comfortable in his pond, he gets thrown into the ocean and realises he's still a little fish. It can be annoying and inconsistent sometimes, but it's something I've really come to appreciate over time.
I'd disagree. Super Saiyan God is a massive improvement from the other forms, specifically level 3. Just because the form didn't dominate, doesn't mean it wasn't impressive. I still remember when that form was announced and revealed, the first time I saw it, me and my friend were so excited, the movie impressed me even more, even though I look back and still feel that Yamamuro was a terrible director. Considering we saw Beerus two-shot a Super Saiyan 3 without trying, and two-shot a Vegeta that surpassed Son Goku for a tiny bit, not to mention the "failed God ritual Super Saiyan" that Son inhibited, Super Saiyan God is incredibly impressive. Beerus wasn't going 100%, but it still got us to see him fight semi-properly. Let's not forget that in Super, the whole "the universe is going to get destroyed" thing.

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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything.”

Post by Psajdak » Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:39 am

If/when series continues even past Moro arc, at some point Ultra Instinct will also become obsolete.

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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything.”

Post by Matches Malone » Thu Jul 09, 2020 10:37 am

emperior wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:33 am
Personally I don’t have a problem with Freeza being that much of a prodigy, but I would have preferred it if
most of his Resurrection F gains came from mental training in hell.

Hopefully Ultra Instinct will be what Super Saiyan God was always meant to be: a level of power so high that very few people can reach and surely not in a day of training.
There's another simple fix to Freeza, have him brought back sometime during the 7 year time gap between Cell and Buu, resulting in him training for years instead of months.

With Moro already taking down Omen, I think it's only a matter of time before UI is just the next level everyone has by default.
Psajdak wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:39 am
If/when series continues even past Moro arc, at some point Ultra Instinct will also become obsolete.
Omen is already outdated, so it's only a matter of time before MUI is as well. This is the main reason why continuing DB as it is now can't be sustained, at least story wise, as you've got to constantly introduce new transformations to keep things going.
The above is exactly why Toriyama ended the manga when he did, as he believed there was no logical way to make Goku any stronger, and looking at the above, he wasn't wrong.
That's EIGHT forms that Goku uses, so how

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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything.”

Post by emperior » Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:06 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 10:37 am
emperior wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:33 am
Personally I don’t have a problem with Freeza being that much of a prodigy, but I would have preferred it if
most of his Resurrection F gains came from mental training in hell.

Hopefully Ultra Instinct will be what Super Saiyan God was always meant to be: a level of power so high that very few people can reach and surely not in a day of training.
There's another simple fix to Freeza, have him brought back sometime during the 7 year time gap between Cell and Buu, resulting in him training for years instead of months.
Maybe that’s a bit overkill. If anything I would have him getting revived 1 year after the wish for erasing memories of Buu. This way Freeza would have roughly 3 years to train, which is a lot.
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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything.”

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:22 pm

I still feel Freeza outclassing the SS version of the SSG (a being that yada yada yada) was just too much. They could've explained/retconned that like the manga did, saying SSB isn't at full power when used for a long time or some crap of that sort so Goku wasn't at full blue power in RoF, thus making Golden Freeza not actually that strong. He could've reached SSG levels of power.

The manga really did a good job withholding blue, nobody was actually blue tier, Hit was fodder to SSG, time skip and all, and SSB was just too much even after his power up. Black was just SS2 level at first (well, Vegeta's SS2 level), and beat up a drained SSB, but at the end of the day he was surpassed by basically SSG with bursts of SSB... and the first real blue tier was MZ. By the ToP, yeah, Hit, Freeza, Gohan, even Kale, they are all blue tier, and Gohan's case is the only asspull. You could include 17 in the asspull section but he never proved to be that strong.

The anime well, already by the U6 arc SSB wasn't enough.

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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything.”

Post by Matches Malone » Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:44 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:22 pm
I still feel Freeza outclassing the SS version of the SSG (a being that yada yada yada) was just too much.
The issue wasn't Freeza matching Goku and Vegeta's power level, it was powering them up even more. We barely scratched the surface of what SsjG was capable of, yet for some reason we got an even stronger form in Blue. To this day, I have no idea what they were thinking introducing a new form so soon.

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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything.”

Post by emperior » Thu Jul 09, 2020 1:39 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:44 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:22 pm
I still feel Freeza outclassing the SS version of the SSG (a being that yada yada yada) was just too much.
The issue wasn't Freeza matching Goku and Vegeta's power level, it was powering them up even more. We barely scratched the surface of what SsjG was capable of, yet for some reason we got an even stronger form in Blue. To this day, I have no idea what they were thinking introducing a new form so soon.
In my opinion Toriyama felt like he had to introduce a new form in the movie. I doubt anyone forced him to.

Maybe he felt like he had to visually showcase Goku having absorbed Super Saiyan God, and decided to give him blue hair because it also fit well with Golden Freeza color-wise.

Like, honestly Blue just feels like the SSG-powered up Super Saiyan Goku from the end of Battle of Gods.
In fact it’s basically the same thing but with blue hair to distinguish it more.
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