SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything.”

Post by Matches Malone » Thu Jul 09, 2020 1:55 pm

emperior wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 1:39 pm
In my opinion Toriyama felt like he had to introduce a new form in the movie. I doubt anyone forced him to.
I agree, I just think he rushed it. I will give Toyotaro credit for keeping SsjG around, but in the anime, it isn't seen in RF and 2 whole arcs. It probably would've remained absent entirely had it not become such a big part of the manga.

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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by The Undying » Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:43 pm

It's common for Toriyama to go with a premise and then flip it on its head. The point of BoG's ending is despite all that power Goku obtained, it doesn't surpass everything and there are still stronger opponents to fight, much to Goku's relief.

Besides, it still surpasses almost everything. Freeza, Hit, 17, Gohan, a few of the Pride Troopers, Broly, Moro and apparently Piccolo are just about the only mortals who can compete with or surpass the form with their own strength; Zamasu, who isn't a mortal, had to steal it from others.
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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by GodVegetto91 » Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:25 pm

My problem isn’t that Super Saiyan God is surpassed at all... Rather, by WHOM it’s surpassed by! It should be overpowered ONLY by Gods of Destruction and Angels, and not by stupid mortals such as Frieza and Jiren.
Last edited by GodVegetto91 on Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by SSJgogeto » Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:36 pm

I think that the “being that surpasses everything” was Toei's idea. They told Toriyama this ideia and Toriyama said "nope".

I'm sure that the original Beerus would be defeated by Goku, like usually happens in the movies.

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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by emperior » Thu Jul 09, 2020 5:06 pm

The Undying wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:43 pm
It's common for Toriyama to go with a premise and then flip it on its head. The point of BoG's ending is despite all that power Goku obtained, it doesn't surpass everything and there are still stronger opponents to fight, much to Goku's relief.

Besides, it still surpasses almost everything. Freeza, Hit, 17, Gohan, a few of the Pride Troopers, Broly, Moro and apparently Piccolo are just about the only mortals who can compete with or surpass the form with their own strength; Zamasu, who isn't a mortal, had to steal it from others.
Piccolo is not on that level in my opinion. Sure, he can do some nicely sinchronized fighting with Gohan but that doesn’t mean he is on par with him.

Honestly in the manga the only character I take issue with because of how they diminish SSG’s importance is Gohan. I think Toyotaro made him a tad too powerful by making him on par with Kefla just by training for one day and improving during the tournament.
And that’s because it was mostly offscreened so there was no build up at all.
SSG was supposed to be the level Goku could only dream of reaching by his own. A realm of power he didn’t even think was possible to reach.
So Gohan should have sweated a little more to get to that level, let alone to Blue level.

As for 17, he’s seemingly a little above SS3 except for a line where at the end of the tournament Goku compares 17 to himself and Vegeta. And Dende too recognizes him as someone so powerful he would be a problem if he was still evil.

I don’t care about these characters being this strong, but it should have been a bigger deal in my opinion.
Back in the manga when Piccolo surpassed Goku and co it was a big deal, for example.

Sometimes it feels like God is just a little power-up from SS3, but we know it shouldn’t be the case.
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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by Yuli Ban » Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:14 pm

It's a trope of bad xianxia fiction. When escalation gets out of control, so the characters cultivate and train until they reach the level of the Immortals Beyond Time... But then there's this godly enemy they didn't notice before, and their new power isn't enough, so they cultivate until they reach a level 1,000× the Gods... But then an even newer bad guy they didn't see earlier awakens and threatens the universe, and the 1,000× God form jobs. So back to training.

And people STILL argue Dragon Ball isn't a wuxia story!
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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:30 pm

The Undying wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:43 pm
It's common for Toriyama to go with a premise and then flip it on its head. The point of BoG's ending is despite all that power Goku obtained, it doesn't surpass everything and there are still stronger opponents to fight, much to Goku's relief.

Besides, it still surpasses almost everything. Freeza, Hit, 17, Gohan, a few of the Pride Troopers, Broly, Moro and apparently Piccolo are just about the only mortals who can compete with or surpass the form with their own strength; Zamasu, who isn't a mortal, had to steal it from others.
I miss posts like this. Completely gets the point of what the story wants to tell. At the very least, the viewer could sense that his power escalated when Beerus didn’t even drop a sweat against SS3 Goku. There is no obscure meaning behind it.

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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by Aim » Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:42 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:25 pm
It should be overpowered ONLY by Gods of Destruction and Angels, and not by stupid mortals such as Frieza and Jiren.
In that case might as well end the series and call it a day.

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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by GodVegetto91 » Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:59 pm

Aim wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:42 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:25 pm
It should be overpowered ONLY by Gods of Destruction and Angels, and not by stupid mortals such as Frieza and Jiren.
In that case might as well end the series and call it a day.
Or just rewrite it ala MY style. And have Goku and Vegeta mastering SSJ God and later Ultra Instinct and have them only fight Gods of Destruction and Angels.
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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by emperior » Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:15 am

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:59 pm
Aim wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:42 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:25 pm
It should be overpowered ONLY by Gods of Destruction and Angels, and not by stupid mortals such as Frieza and Jiren.
In that case might as well end the series and call it a day.
Or just rewrite it ala MY style. And have Goku and Vegeta mastering SSJ God and later Ultra Instinct and have them only fight Gods of Destruction and Angels.
There’s no problem at all with there existing super strong mortals. It would be dumb if all that was left for Goku to fight were the Gods.

If anything the existence of beings like Jiren and Broly confirm, once again, that there’s always someone stronger out there in Dragon Ball.
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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by GodVegetto91 » Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:23 am

emperior wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:15 am
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:59 pm
Aim wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:42 pm

In that case might as well end the series and call it a day.
Or just rewrite it ala MY style. And have Goku and Vegeta mastering SSJ God and later Ultra Instinct and have them only fight Gods of Destruction and Angels.
There’s no problem at all with there existing super strong mortals. It would be dumb if all that was left for Goku to fight were the Gods.

If anything the existence of beings like Jiren and Broly confirm, once again, that there’s always someone stronger out there in Dragon Ball.
Yes, there is! It’s just stupid. Mortals should never be able touch “Warrior Gods” such a Destroyer Gods, Saiyan Gods, and Angels! It goes against ALL logic and reason.

These ain’t joke Gods like Dende, the Kai’s and Supreme Kai’s who are very weak... These are “Warrior Gods”. A God of the Saiyans (a warrior race), a God of Destruction, and Angels who surpass even the Gods of Destruction! No mortal should ever come close to them. They have Godly Ki.
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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by Jack Bz » Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:55 am

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:23 am
emperior wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:15 am
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:59 pm

Or just rewrite it ala MY style. And have Goku and Vegeta mastering SSJ God and later Ultra Instinct and have them only fight Gods of Destruction and Angels.
There’s no problem at all with there existing super strong mortals. It would be dumb if all that was left for Goku to fight were the Gods.

If anything the existence of beings like Jiren and Broly confirm, once again, that there’s always someone stronger out there in Dragon Ball.
Yes, there is! It’s just stupid. Mortals should never be able touch “Warrior Gods” such a Destroyer Gods, Saiyan Gods, and Angels! It goes against ALL logic and reason.

These ain’t joke Gods like Dende, the Kai’s and Supreme Kai’s who are very weak... These are “Warrior Gods”. A God of the Saiyans (a warrior race), a God of Destruction, and Angels who surpass even the Gods of Destruction! No mortal should ever come close to them. They have Godly Ki.
According to your reasoning, Goku and Vegeta themselves "go against all logic". If Goku and Vegeta can do it, other mortals in other universes can do it, especially characters like Toppo and Jiren who also know and interact with their God of Destruction, with Toppo even being a GoD candidate. They just need to have a good reason for it, and sadly this isn't always the case. Do you really think it'd be healthy for the story if Goku and Vegeta never fought anyone else again but the 12 designated gods of destruction? I'd rather god ki was never introduced than remove any other kind of antagonist from the story.

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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:19 pm

emperior wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:15 am
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:59 pm
Aim wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:42 pm

In that case might as well end the series and call it a day.
Or just rewrite it ala MY style. And have Goku and Vegeta mastering SSJ God and later Ultra Instinct and have them only fight Gods of Destruction and Angels.
There’s no problem at all with there existing super strong mortals. It would be dumb if all that was left for Goku to fight were the Gods.

If anything the existence of beings like Jiren and Broly confirm, once again, that there’s always someone stronger out there in Dragon Ball.
Even better, Jiren and Broly prove not even the GoDs are safe of the fact that there is always someone stronger than you. And lately we need to include Goku and Vegeta to that list.

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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by DragonBallFoodie » Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:21 am

A being that surpasses everything.... no such thing exists in a shonen story, except maybe as a villain to defeat or a milestone to reach.

In recent comics Wonder Woman faced down God Himself and told him off, described in the link below. Once you start doing stunts like that, you end up making every new challenge an inevitable defeat and diminishing expectations and hype. I must admit though that Beerus's debut defied this concept in a well-done matter.

https://www.cbr.com/wonder-woman-kills- ... -presence/
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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by FiReFTW » Sat Jul 11, 2020 5:27 am

I think Dragonball became too obsessed with new saiyan transformations.

Remember Dragonball? Whole series of almost 150 episodes that didn't have any transformations really (ok apart from big ape) and focused on a good story of a big adventure and characters.

And nowadays? The story and adventure aspect and character development is maybe 10% compared to then, and its all focused on stronger opponents showing up and new transformations getting added, thats basically almost all there is to it.

Why do we need 10000 transformations?

Whats wrong with having 1 new transformation in a big 150-200episode series? and focusing on that and improving in other ways by training or new interesting techniques?

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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by Matches Malone » Sat Jul 11, 2020 5:32 am

FiReFTW wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 5:27 am
Whats wrong with having 1 new transformation in a big 150-200episode series? and focusing on that and improving in other ways by training or new interesting techniques?
Because relying on transformations is an easy way of progressing things. I agree that it's too much now, and would prefer what you're suggesting, but transformations are the face of DB now.

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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Jul 11, 2020 5:51 am

Got to love this fanbase though. One thread is one guy complaining that Vegeta didn't get a new form, another thread is one guy complaining that there are too many transformations. The writers just can't please everyone, no matter what they do.
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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by dbs fanboy » Sat Jul 11, 2020 1:49 pm

Yuli Ban wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:14 pm
It's a trope of bad xianxia fiction. When escalation gets out of control, so the characters cultivate and train until they reach the level of the Immortals Beyond Time... But then there's this godly enemy they didn't notice before, and their new power isn't enough, so they cultivate until they reach a level 1,000× the Gods... But then an even newer bad guy they didn't see earlier awakens and threatens the universe, and the 1,000× God form jobs. So back to training.

And people STILL argue Dragon Ball isn't a wuxia story!
Haha, true, some time ago i read Journey to the West and the way the scaling of power goes is as inconsistent of db, everh few chapters there would be a huge mountain and Terrible demon.
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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Jul 11, 2020 7:47 pm

Personally, I just think it’s odd how Super Saiyan God is now treated as another transformation that can easily be accessed. When the form was first used in the movie, I was led to believe that it was just a temporary thing that Goku no longer needed beyond the initial ritual. At least, that was the impression I got when the transformation wore off without Goku even realizing it.

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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:22 pm

Jack Bz wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:55 am
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:23 am
emperior wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:15 am

There’s no problem at all with there existing super strong mortals. It would be dumb if all that was left for Goku to fight were the Gods.

If anything the existence of beings like Jiren and Broly confirm, once again, that there’s always someone stronger out there in Dragon Ball.
Yes, there is! It’s just stupid. Mortals should never be able touch “Warrior Gods” such a Destroyer Gods, Saiyan Gods, and Angels! It goes against ALL logic and reason.

These ain’t joke Gods like Dende, the Kai’s and Supreme Kai’s who are very weak... These are “Warrior Gods”. A God of the Saiyans (a warrior race), a God of Destruction, and Angels who surpass even the Gods of Destruction! No mortal should ever come close to them. They have Godly Ki.
According to your reasoning, Goku and Vegeta themselves "go against all logic". If Goku and Vegeta can do it, other mortals in other universes can do it, especially characters like Toppo and Jiren who also know and interact with their God of Destruction, with Toppo even being a GoD candidate. They just need to have a good reason for it, and sadly this isn't always the case. Do you really think it'd be healthy for the story if Goku and Vegeta never fought anyone else again but the 12 designated gods of destruction? I'd rather god ki was never introduced than remove any other kind of antagonist from the story.
You do realize that Goku and Vegeta have Godly Ki right???
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