SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by Kataphrut » Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:09 pm

The funny thing about this topic title is it sounds like something Vegeta said about the original Super Saiyan transformation during the Cell and Buu arcs. Which I think says it all really. Everything is the legendary ultimate power in the universe until it isn't.

I mean, Super Saiyan God barely had that considering Beerus was still stronger in it's debut, and Freeza rivalled Blue in Resurrection F. That was Toriyama himself that wrote that.

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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by Skar » Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:28 am

I would've preferred if the only mortals that could challenge SSJG had acquired God ki as well but what's done is done I guess. UI might be what SSJG would've been had BoG been a standalone movie maybe. After Goku masters UI, the Angels might be the only beings more powerful than him since they're the only ones we know of who've mastered it.

I assume that's why they held off on having Goku master it immediately after the ToP so they can squeeze in a few more storylines before that. Every previous transformation was either mastered or surpassed the following saga but two storylines later and Goku can barely control Omen. At some point, Goku will have some final transformation like in the original and GT and the series ends. I think UI makes thematic sense.

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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by Matches Malone » Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:49 am

Skar wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:28 am
UI might be what SSJG would've been had BoG been a standalone movie maybe.
Considering Omen has already been surpassed, I highly doubt MUI won't be. Another issue is that DB is now built on transformations, so stopping MUI is very unlikely.

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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by emperior » Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:16 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:49 am
Skar wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:28 am
UI might be what SSJG would've been had BoG been a standalone movie maybe.
Considering Omen has already been surpassed, I highly doubt MUI won't be. Another issue is that DB is now built on transformations, so stopping MUI is very unlikely.
Well maybe either the trend of new forms will stop or maybe the show will end in the arc/movie where Goku masters Ultra Instinct.
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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by Matches Malone » Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:19 am

emperior wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:16 am
Well maybe either the trend of new forms will stop or maybe the show will end in the arc/movie where Goku masters Ultra Instinct.
Based on comments made by Toriyama, it seems like the franchise is being set up to continue without him, so although MUI might be the last form he introduces, there'll surely be others by whoever takes over after him.

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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by emperior » Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:05 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:19 am
emperior wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:16 am
Well maybe either the trend of new forms will stop or maybe the show will end in the arc/movie where Goku masters Ultra Instinct.
Based on comments made by Toriyama, it seems like the franchise is being set up to continue without him, so although MUI might be the last form he introduces, there'll surely be others by whoever takes over after him.
I don’t know about it to be honest. I doubt they will continue Super without Toriyama’s involvement, and the last 2 years have been proof of that. They put the fricking anime on hiatus when it was at its top and making a shit ton of money, especially after Broly’s momentum, most likely because Toriyama still hadn’t written any new story.

The manga is probably being allowed to continue only because Toriyama is still willing to supervise it.

Eventually they won’t be able to milk the time gap between Buu and Uub and that’s when new stories will stop unless Toriyama himself decides to write stories set after the end of his manga.

At best they will do a new serie like GT, maybe with Toyotaro as the main writer, but it won’t be Super anymore.
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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by Skar » Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:32 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:19 am
Based on comments made by Toriyama, it seems like the franchise is being set up to continue without him, so although MUI might be the last form he introduces, there'll surely be others by whoever takes over after him.
They could create new transformations but that doesn't necessarily mean they will. They've already exhausted most hair colors and I don't think they would reuse the concept behind SSJB to have a SSJMUI or a complex form like SSJ4. There's going to a final transformation at some point. I feel that it would most likely be one they decided would be a good final form rather than exhaust every possible transformation they could come up with.

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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by emperior » Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:31 pm

Skar wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:32 am
Matches Malone wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:19 am
Based on comments made by Toriyama, it seems like the franchise is being set up to continue without him, so although MUI might be the last form he introduces, there'll surely be others by whoever takes over after him.
They could create new transformations but that doesn't necessarily mean they will. They've already exhausted most hair colors and I don't think they would reuse the concept behind SSJB to have a SSJMUI or a complex form like SSJ4. There's going to a final transformation at some point. I feel that it would most likely be one they decided would be a good final form rather than exhaust every possible transformation they could come up with.
I agree. And Ultra Instinct fits as the “ultimate form”. It will be very difficult to top it, and I disagree with the notion that they will always find new ways to introduce new forms. Toriyama himself admitted he had no idea on how to further power-up Goku after Buu, and that the concept of Super Saiyan God was extremely handy.

What I personally hope for is that once UI is mastered we get a few more stories where Goku has to internalize it so that he can use the technique with no stamina drains at all and thus his appearance too doesn’t change. This would ditch every form and essentially act as a soft reset, which would be similar to what Battle of Gods’ ending and Resurrection F promotional material were suggesting.
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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything.”

Post by ChronoTwigger » Mon Jul 13, 2020 12:36 am

emperior wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:33 am
JulieYBM wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:48 pm
Capitalism, baby! Merchandise needs selling because capitalism requires that sweet, sweet unsustainable growth!
This has absolutely nothing to do with capitalism, it’s not about politics. Why do you have to bring here this stuff in the first place? It’s a Dragon Ball forum.
Capitalism is an economy model, not a political trend.
Capitalism is based on the supposition that you can always have a growing economy. It's often used to indicate the money making trend. So it's a pertinent term.

To OP:
There wasn't any plan to do a DB movie, they did. And there wasn't any plan to make a new serie after that. And they did.
Probably a lot of you don't understand, but they DOESN'T ACTUALLY KNOW HOW TO MANAGE A STORY SO MESSED UP and make it fresh and interesting again. They tried, but it was almost impossible.
Now you have difficulty to even find a reason for the characters to be there, to have ANY motivation.
And you struggle again with power levels.
Power levels got f***d up 20 years ago.

DB is dying, they are killing it and, if was for Toriyama, it was dead SO long ago for a very good reason: there wasn't anything to tell anymore about. You should ask for a total reboot, that's what you should ask. Without Toriyama. And a new vision behind.
If Demon Slayer, coming out from nowhere and without Vegeta my boy is the most sold manga EVER (not DBS, but Demon Slayer) that's mean it could be done. It's not magic, it's quality.

Simply speaking, or they reboot the thing, or the franchise can't be better (and can go wrong even more).
NO ONE want to see two space monsters exchange laser beams again again after the age of 6.
At least, not without a real reason - and a reason can't be no more.

So, SuperSayanGod was ALREADY a bad idea, and by piling up bulls**t on top of bulls**t you don't come with quality, but just a taller bulls**t tower.
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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by Aim » Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:20 am

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:59 pm
Aim wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:42 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:25 pm
It should be overpowered ONLY by Gods of Destruction and Angels, and not by stupid mortals such as Frieza and Jiren.
In that case might as well end the series and call it a day.
Or just rewrite it ala MY style. And have Goku and Vegeta mastering SSJ God and later Ultra Instinct and have them only fight Gods of Destruction and Angels.
Then it wouldn't be Dragon Ball. Doesn't sound or feel like Toriyama at all. They technically did master Super Saiyan God, that's how we have SSGSS.

To be honest, I don't want a repeat of AnimeWar.

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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:39 am

Aim wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:20 am
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:59 pm
Aim wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:42 pm

In that case might as well end the series and call it a day.
Or just rewrite it ala MY style. And have Goku and Vegeta mastering SSJ God and later Ultra Instinct and have them only fight Gods of Destruction and Angels.
Then it wouldn't be Dragon Ball. Doesn't sound or feel like Toriyama at all. They technically did master Super Saiyan God, that's how we have SSGSS.

To be honest, I don't want a repeat of AnimeWar.
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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by Jord » Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:31 am

To be honest SSSJ God Goku looked like a skinny loser. Looked even weaker than SSJ1. Would be a huge disappointment if that would be the ultimate form of Super.

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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:03 pm

Skinny loser? Ooh, those are the best, especially when you get some into some nice cute crop tops that say "Daddy's Girl" and shows off their nice, toned tummy...and some fishnets and super tight shorts that don't fit and shows their bul--uh, it really shows off their appeal. Super Saiyan God is the form that surpasses everything: the femboy Super Saiyan form!!


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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by Matches Malone » Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:09 pm

Jord wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:31 am
To be honest SSSJ God Goku looked like a skinny loser. Looked even weaker than SSJ1.
That's the point, it lines up perfectly with Toriyama's other strong forms, be it Freeza's final form or Kid Buu.

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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by pepd » Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:26 pm

^It also reflect well his latest style. I like it, wish SSB was skinny too.

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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by miguelnuva1 » Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:01 pm

If Super could be rewritten now I would have SS God as the main form through the Black arc.

Black would be the first one to get SSGSS and Goku and Vegeta get Blue in the TOP instead of KK and Evolution.

The combined power of Blue would be what holds Jiren off.

UI Sign would be just Ui(no silver hair) and it could be saved for later.

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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by Jord » Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:11 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:09 pm
Jord wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:31 am
To be honest SSSJ God Goku looked like a skinny loser. Looked even weaker than SSJ1.
That's the point, it lines up perfectly with Toriyama's other strong forms, be it Freeza's final form or Kid Buu.
People allways point to Buu and Frieza as having weaker looking final forms but conveniently forget about how Cell, Broly, Piccolo Daimao, Baby Vegeta, Omega Shenron all have strong-looking final forms. I would also say that Buu's final form looked more capable/dangerous than his first form.
I know the GT chars aren't designed by Toriyama but they are some of the later villains in DB media.

Even ignoring those examples, the trope of "He is strong but actually looks really weak" is a played out trope that isn't fun anymore. Just because it's a Toriyama idea doesn't automatically make it good. Actually, I think he currently is a detriment to the franchise, as DB Super has shown. He hasn't the foggiest idea of what to do with the story or characters.

Knowing Japan's obsession with marketing and using him during production, the chances of dropping him are slim to none.

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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by Jack Bz » Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:20 am

I enjoyed the slimness of ssj god at the time as a reflection of Beerus' physique, a visual indicator that Goku had actually pulled off actually ascending to some sort of god form as opposed to just getting stronger.

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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by Matches Malone » Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:40 am

Jord wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:11 am
The trope of "He is strong but actually looks really weak" is a played out trope that isn't fun anymore.

Just because it's a Toriyama idea doesn't automatically make it good. Actually, I think he currently is a detriment to the franchise, as DB Super has shown. He hasn't the foggiest idea of what to do with the story or characters.
What else could he have done ? Ssj3 and Ssj4 were very strong and complex looking forms, was he to somehow go even above those two? I think going the simple rout was the right idea, as trying to design an even more complicated form would've more than likely just looked ridiculous.

I agree with this statement, but it's worth mentioning that there are others to blame as well, as he's not the only one making decisions.

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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by Jord » Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:03 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:40 am
Jord wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:11 am
The trope of "He is strong but actually looks really weak" is a played out trope that isn't fun anymore.

Just because it's a Toriyama idea doesn't automatically make it good. Actually, I think he currently is a detriment to the franchise, as DB Super has shown. He hasn't the foggiest idea of what to do with the story or characters.
What else could he have done ? Ssj3 and Ssj4 were very strong and complex looking forms, was he to somehow go even above those two? I think going the simple rout was the right idea, as trying to design an even more complicated form would've more than likely just looked ridiculous.

I agree with this statement, but it's worth mentioning that there are others to blame as well, as he's not the only one making decisions.
I agree with you in that SSJ3 and 4 are hard to top. Actually, I don't think BoG didn't need a new form (story wise). Combining SSJ3 with Kaioken, akin to what they did in Super with Blue (although they fouled that up as well) could have been a interesting way to go at it. If they do want a new form, it is on them to think of a new cool form, no matter how hard it may be.Only dying the hair is just lazy, especially since it was 'just' a power up. I would like it more if there was a caveat to it like how Kaioken can break down your body and how SSJ3 exhausts your energy. Just do something different.

As far as new forms, I liked the approach in Ultra intinct omen. It would also be interesting to see the pseudo-SSJ form from the Slug movie. The red aura, lack of pupils and different character made it arguably more interesting than the 'real' ssj1.

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