SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything.”

Post by JulieYBM » Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:17 am

Matches Malone wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:02 am 1- Politics: Worldwide, there aren't enough laws put in place to protect workers. People do what they can get away with, and what you went through is allowed by corrupt politicians who refuse to do anything about it.

2- The workers: At the end of the day, these companies wouldn't function without us, yet we put our heads down for the smallest of crumbs. If enough workers put their foot down and said, no, we're not working for that, you'd see things change.

3- The general public: They're the ones that make all this possible by supporting companies they know for a fact that are not only ripping them off, but also stepping on the workers that bring them what they purchase.

In my opinion, Capitalism is used as a front to take away attention from the real issues, the 3 issues I mentioned above. I agree that capitalism has been used to hurt others, but it's by far not the only or even main issue that's allowing that to go on.
1. There aren't enough laws because the wealthy (something allowed under capitalism) have enough money to bribe politicians to do their bidding, which of course includes demonizing the worker and praising the corporations and the wealthy. It's a cult.

2. The workers have been brow-beaten into submitting to the All Powerful Corporation. It's capitalism's propaganda, we see it in what The Company tells us all day at work and we see it in our media (which is owned by these very same people). Luckily we are beginning to see actual Leftist movements growing in strength in recent years and this will hopefully strike enough fear into our elected politicians to enact Leftist policies.

3. People have to live within the system to survive, that doesn't mean they cannot criticize it. Capitalism is the ailment, our being unable to see a fucking doctor is a symptom of that ailment. Capitalism is a fucking cancer. Destroy capitalism and rebuild a system that ensues the wealth goes to all.

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Destroy capitalism and dethrone God!
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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything.”

Post by emperior » Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:32 am

JulieYBM wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:48 am
Matches Malone wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:17 am
JulieYBM wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:12 amYou've just described why capitalism sucks balls.
If you were working an 8 hour job every day, be it as a writer, teacher, doctor, etc., would you do it for free ? Probably not, which is a part of capitalism, you use a specific skill you have to make money.

When it comes to SsjG and DB as a whole, Toriyama makes his decisions based on what he thinks will result in a financially successful product, just as any writer currently working does. I haven't agreed with most of the decisions made in regards to modern DB, but I can't fully blame Toriyama for it, as that's not only what fans are paying for, but demanding as well.
I worked retailed for five years, 40 hours a week, destroying my body and mind, all for wages too small to move out on my own and take care of my health. Why? Because capitalism. The family I worked for was worth over $100,000,000,000 but they couldn't pay their essential workers enough money to live comfortably, despite working a ridiculously high number of hours? Bullshit. If the workers had control over the corporation the profits would be going to us, not overpaid executives that didn't actually generate the profits. Capitalism is feudalism dressed up in flowery words.

New transformations are created because they sell merchandise. Merchandise earns earn corporations profits--money greater than the amount they spent on production of said merchandise. The profits of a corporation go toward making the executives live ridiculously comfortable lives while the workers--the people who actually generated those profits--live lives of hardship and have no democratic power to instead take the profits for themselves. Capitalism is about greed and allowing the wealthy to amass all of the world's money. Such a system means the very wealthy will rely on the same intellectual property constantly to produce more profits, creative will power be damned.
I too worked retail. I too know it’s shit and underpaid. But without capitalism there would be no innovation. Heck, without capitalism there wouldn’t even be Dragon Ball.
Corporations are born with the goal of making money. They are financed by people who want to make money.
The family you worked for were rewarded due to the risks they faced and their entrepreneurial abilIty to create a big multinational which employs thousands of people possibly all over the world too (I assume, considering you said they were worth more than 100 billions in total). They deserve being richer than average people. Sorry but this is the hard cold truth.

Now if we have to talk about how it’s incredibly unjust for many wealthy people to be rich just because they inherited their money and not because of their hardwork and perseverance, then I agree. But it’s also true that (according to statistics) around 70% of the world’s millionaires are self-made.
I would also agree how the government, in the mixed economy system, should at least guarantee that the minimum wage be proportionate to the cost of living of the city you are working in, to ensure even the lowest wage can guarantee a decent living.

But I would also like to remind you that, especially nowadays, for people living in advanced economy countries (for sure those living in the US or in any EU country, but in Japan too of course) who have access to an internet connection, knowledge is free.
And with enough knowledge it’s not impossible to put money through work and enjoy the magic of compound interest. And, guess what, those who have become richest are historically those who have invested in the equity market. The same market where people can buy fractions of companies such as Toei Animation and Bandai Namco. And if you buy even a share of those companies, you are in fact a shareholder and thus expect the company to be profitable.

Even then, while toys surely sell and new forms are surely more attractive both to fans and to those who just like to collect them, ultimately those toys sell because of the franchise behind it. New Dragon Ball toys nowadays sell so much not because they are “X form Goku” but because Dragon Ball Super has been so popular that demand for new DB toys in general has improved. I really don’t think the difference in Bandai Namco’s revenues would have been that big if Dragon Ball Super actually had less forms.
Heck before Ultra Instinct was introduced Super really only had Kaioken as the only new power-up above blue for Goku, and SSG and Blue already were old stuff as they debuted in the movies. Yet that didn’t stop Super from being incredibly popular.

Sorry for having gone off-topic. I will delete this message if it’s too political or off-topic (or will have no problems if some moderator decides to delete it).
But I think that this is not entirely off-topic, as the essence is that new transformations aren’t being made to sell toys but because they know fans will like them and thus support the show more, talk about it online and on Twitter, make DB trend and thus increase its popularity. Every show wants to be more popular with its fanbase, and in DB fans like to see new forms and that’s what they get. Fans also like to see Broly and Gogeta and that’s why they made it to the latest movie.

Also the matter of fact is that all this stuff is way more complex than “just make new form and profit”.
Nowadays more than toys I bet the gachas games such as Legends and Dokkan Battle are those which truly profit from new forms. While other games like Xenoverse, FighterZ and Kakarot are breaking all the records for DB games due to the popularity of Super which has in turn increased demand for Dragon Ball in general.
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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by JulieYBM » Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:50 am

Capitalism creates waste, not innovation. Demand creates innovation. Free time creates innovation. Remember YouTube before Google bought it? The freedom creators had not simply to create new forms of art but to become independent of the corporate and Hollywood systems? Capitalism consumed YouTube because it needs to limit the peoples' ability to survive and thrive separate from it.
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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:34 pm

(This isn't directed at anyone here, just a vent for something that generally grinds my gears)

I'd be down for change in the system. What bugs me is that so many fervent anti-capitalists I know do nothing but overindulge in capitalism. I'm not a "wow, you're a socialist, how can you be when you drink lattes" type but if you're out there protesting against the abusive system, why feed into more than you have to it by excessively buying loads of expensive shite? Go ahead and do what you want with your own money but it screams that you're overly dependent on the current system and haven't seriously considered how you'd survive without it. I know this may be a "no true Scotsman"/"attacking the arguer" fallacy or whatever RationalWiki counterargument, but I do think champagne socialism damages the cause by perpetuating the same old out-of-touch privileged liberal stereotypes.

That applies to the way we consume media, which is a topic that needs to be seriously self-interrogated by most fandom/nerd cultures. No one's actually willing to sacrifice Dragon Ball, or Nintendo games, or Funko Pop Vinyls, so the big corporations will never stop lining their pockets.

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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by JulieYBM » Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:12 pm

Laying the blame for something upon its victims really isn't the way to go.

Aside from voting there are other ways to enact change, like protests and rioting. There needs to be a general strike and public disturbances to enact change. The wealthy will only buckle when we make them feel threatened and they will definitely view mass protests and strikes as a threat.

Anything that leads to change--no matter how peaceful--is violence.
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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by theherodjl » Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:10 pm

Ah yes, Kanzenshuu. The world-renowned socio-political forum! Dragonball has no bearing here; just discussions, debates, and decisions of any nature regarding politics! :crazy:
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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by JulieYBM » Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:39 pm

theherodjl wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:10 pm Ah yes, Kanzenshuu. The world-renowned socio-political forum! Dragonball has no bearing here; just discussions, debates, and decisions of any nature regarding politics! :crazy:
Hi theherodjl, the next time you're at the grocery story I hope you find a wide-open checkout lane that spares you the normal 45 minute wait in line! In fact, I hope you find the highest monetary note produced by your country lying on the ground while you wait.
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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by theherodjl » Fri Jul 17, 2020 3:25 am

JulieYBM wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:39 pm
theherodjl wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:10 pm Ah yes, Kanzenshuu. The world-renowned socio-political forum! Dragonball has no bearing here; just discussions, debates, and decisions of any nature regarding politics! :crazy:
Hi theherodjl, the next time you're at the grocery story I hope you find a wide-open checkout lane that spares you the normal 45 minute wait in line! In fact, I hope you find the highest monetary note produced by your country lying on the ground while you wait.
Me: "Oh boy! I wonder what news & discussion that Kanzenshuu might have about DB today!"

Politics: "Hold on there! Let's talk about scenarios involving checkout lines & money first! And why you need to know about them!

Me: :eh:
"Why is a raven like a writing desk?" - The Mad Hatter :think:

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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:06 am

theherodjl wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 3:25 am
JulieYBM wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:39 pm
theherodjl wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:10 pm Ah yes, Kanzenshuu. The world-renowned socio-political forum! Dragonball has no bearing here; just discussions, debates, and decisions of any nature regarding politics! :crazy:
Hi theherodjl, the next time you're at the grocery story I hope you find a wide-open checkout lane that spares you the normal 45 minute wait in line! In fact, I hope you find the highest monetary note produced by your country lying on the ground while you wait.
Me: "Oh boy! I wonder what news & discussion that Kanzenshuu might have about DB today!"

Politics: "Hold on there! Let's talk about scenarios involving checkout lines & money first! And why you need to know about them!

Me: :eh:
What are you talking about?

Anyway, I hope the weather is pleasant enough for you to get some yard work finished today!
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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything.”

Post by BagetaSama » Mon Sep 28, 2020 3:22 pm

miguelnuva1 wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:30 am
Matches Malone wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:02 am
BagetaSama wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:57 pm
How did you manage to make Super Saiyan God, political?
Some people can make everything political, it's why we can't have nice things. :cry:
She's right about SS God and capitalism. Not wanting it mentioned is one thing but she's not wrong.
Oh no, she's definitely wrong. You can't just arbitrarily assume any growth rate is unsusstainable, or at least not doing it the way she is doing it presumably. And I would imagine that similar things with SSG would happen, under different modes of production.

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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything.”

Post by BagetaSama » Mon Sep 28, 2020 3:24 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:13 pm
BagetaSama wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:57 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:48 pm Capitalism, baby! Merchandise needs selling because capitalism requires that sweet, sweet unsustainable growth!
How did you manage to make Super Saiyan God, political?
Everything is political. SSG and more forms are made to be sold, capitalism produces waste for the profit of a few, rather than the many.
1) No, everything is not political.
2) The existence of profit benefits everyone. For one to achieve it, they have to make the consumer's lives better.

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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything.”

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Sep 28, 2020 3:39 pm

BagetaSama wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 3:24 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:13 pm
BagetaSama wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:57 pm
How did you manage to make Super Saiyan God, political?
Everything is political. SSG and more forms are made to be sold, capitalism produces waste for the profit of a few, rather than the many.
1) No, everything is not political.
2) The existence of profit benefits everyone. For one to achieve it, they have to make the consumer's lives better.
1. Yes, everything is political.
2. The system is run by the greediest people in the room, not the smartest. Profit distribution is controlled by an elite few, not the actual workers who create it.
3. If someone is making more money than you then you are being exploited.
4. Oh my gosh, this post is old.
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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by ChronoTwigger » Mon Sep 28, 2020 3:55 pm

Capitalism is not bad on his own, as a concept. Not worst than comunism and socialsm are.
Concepts are usually nice.
People anyway find some way to turn concepts into horrible egoism, and so is not exactly capitalism that suck, is humanity greed that sucks.
The next social system you'll apply will slowly turn corrupted the moment someone find the way to spoil it.

What we should struggle for is to keep a social system that guarantee enough power for people to destroy and revolt everything if things turn really bad - but what will come next will probably rotten away after a while the same.
That's why probably dictatures and regimes are not the best thing, as they tend to implode violently from the inside, while more liberal regimes can be easily destroyed when they are too rotten.
It happened MANY MANY times in history, even to "idealistic, humanized, lovely" political utopia. Perfect tools in the hands of imperfect beings.

So, let's talk of Dragon Ball. Is Dragon Ball a capitalism product?
No, is probably an entertainment product born in a consumistic society, but not exactly spoiling the system - you were not forced to buy it and you could have destroyed the thing by not reading the manga and have Toriyama continue to draw Arale and DragonQuest - with probably better results.
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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by GodVegetto91 » Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:17 pm

This is why we need a “social capitalism” where capitalism works IN FAVOR of the people.

For starters, we need a UBI (Universal Basic Income)
because no one should ever be forced to work just to survive.

2) Free housing (because it’s absolutely INHUMANE that we have such a thing as homeless people in 2020),

3) And ofcourse Universal Healthcare. (Medicare for all).

Capitalism (in its current form) has TONS of problems, everything is about “profit” and not the general well being of the people. Capitalism should work in the interest of the people, and not in the interest of the sociopatic rich elite, the 1%.

It’s not Left, it’s not Right, it’s FORWARD!

Humanity First!

Everyone should have equal rights and equal opportunity (not neccesarily equal “outcome” since it’s based on TALENT).

We also need a fair justice system, where everything is based on empirical “EVIDENCE”. And ofcourse less police brutality and less freedoms being taken away.

So a Meritocracy is the way to go!

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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by precita » Wed Sep 30, 2020 6:12 pm

Super going through 2 new Super Saiyan forms and Ultra Instinct in just 3 years was easily the worst thing about it. This level of strength for mortals outside the Gods/Angels really doesn't make sense anymore and trivializes everything that happened in DBZ.

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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by The Bastard. » Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:00 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:17 pm This is why we need a “social capitalism” where capitalism works IN FAVOR of the people.

For starters, we need a UBI (Universal Basic Income)
because no one should ever be forced to work just to survive.

2) Free housing (because it’s absolutely INHUMANE that we have such a thing as homeless people in 2020),

3) And ofcourse Universal Healthcare. (Medicare for all).

Capitalism (in its current form) has TONS of problems, everything is about “profit” and not the general well being of the people. Capitalism should work in the interest of the people, and not in the interest of the sociopatic rich elite, the 1%.

It’s not Left, it’s not Right, it’s FORWARD!

Humanity First!

Everyone should have equal rights and equal opportunity (not neccesarily equal “outcome” since it’s based on TALENT).

We also need a fair justice system, where everything is based on empirical “EVIDENCE”. And ofcourse less police brutality and less freedoms being taken away.

So a Meritocracy is the way to go!
Preeetty sure this is a technocracy not a meritocracy.

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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by miguelnuva1 » Thu Oct 01, 2020 12:10 am

precita wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 6:12 pm Super going through 2 new Super Saiyan forms and Ultra Instinct in just 3 years was easily the worst thing about it. This level of strength for mortals outside the Gods/Angels really doesn't make sense anymore and trivializes everything that happened in DBZ.
Super had a couple new forms, but SS God and SS Blue are DBZ forms.

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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by Matches Malone » Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:31 am

precita wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 6:12 pmSuper going through 2 new Super Saiyan forms and Ultra Instinct in just 3 years was easily the worst thing about it.
The thing I never understood was why were they in such a rush ? Modern DB is here for the long run, there's no reason to rush things as much as they're doing.
miguelnuva1 wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 12:10 amSS God and SS Blue are DBZ forms.
The name difference is due to marketing only, those 2 forms are part of modern DB.

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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by Skar » Thu Oct 01, 2020 4:00 am

Matches Malone wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:31 amThe thing I never understood was why were they in such a rush ? Modern DB is here for the long run, there's no reason to rush things as much as they're doing.
DBZ had a new transformation each arc since Freeza so I guess they wanted to continue that trend almost every arc in DBS. It happens quicker here since the arcs are shorter and two were introduced in movies. I thought the original series had enough so I never really got excited for any new transformation in DBS but what's done is done. I'm sticking with MUI being the final transformation because it had buildup over a few arcs. I'm sure they would rather the series end with some theme than continue until they exhaust every remaining hair color.

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Re: SSJ God was supposed to be “a being that surpasses everything”

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Oct 01, 2020 5:30 am

precita wrote: Wed Sep 30, 2020 6:12 pm Super going through 2 new Super Saiyan forms and Ultra Instinct in just 3 years was easily the worst thing about it. This level of strength for mortals outside the Gods/Angels really doesn't make sense anymore and trivializes everything that happened in DBZ.
But DBZ didn't trivialize OG Dragon Ball, right? The fact that Cell or Buu made anyone from OG DB look like utter fodder wasn't a problem? Only Super started this trend, of course.

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