Should Freeza have never been revived in Super?

[GodVegetto91]

His re-introduction fucked up everything Battle of Gods had set up. Where SSJ God was supposed to be the ultimate super power whom no mortal being could ever reach. The introduction of Godly Ki and everything it was SUPPOSED to be, got utterly demolished the moment Freeza, a mortal with normal ki, was able to overpower, even a stronger version of Super Saiyan God, (SSGSS!)

They had finally set up, a PERFECT concept (God Ki), and then they immediately had to completely ruin it in the next arc! It’s like Toriyama and Toei don’t even respect their own story, least of all keeping things consistent with previously introduced concepts.

They should have just introduced another God of Destruction for Goku and Vegeta to fight after Beerus.

What do you think?

And besides, I never liked Freeza at all! I think he’s a horrible character. I much prefer Super Perfect Cell and Majin Buu.

Too bad they had to subscribe to mindless fanservice to bring in that damned capitalistic money!!! Freeza’s re-introduction at that point in the series makes NO sense from an in-universe writing perspective. The whole reason he was re-introduced was because they wanted to pander to iconicness and nostalgia!

What do you think?

Also their clickbait teaser trailer stating: ”The worst wish in history, that is the beginning of despair.” Was exactly that, nonsensical hype and clickbait.

You don’t introduce a great new concept (Godly Ki), to immediately shit on all over it in the next story arc!

[Peach]

I thought resurrection f was fine.

I don't think he should have gotten brought back a second time though. I think I would have preferred a few episodes about Yamcha (similar how Roshi got a few episodes and reminded us he was a badass), or Trunks saving his universe with that part of that wish after losing everything.

Overall, I think Dragon Ball Super should have stuck to movies. Dragon Ball Super had its moments, but was bad overall. A movie wouldn't have so much fluff.

[Matches Malone]

Their clickbait teaser trailer stating: ”The worst wish in history, that is the beginning of despair.” Was exactly that, nonsensical hype and clickbait.

There's so much they could've done with such a concept, but instead they just brought Freeza back. They didn't even need to introduce a new destroyer, just continue on with the concept of the multiverse and either have someone new show up, or have Goku and friends go to another universe. Having Freeza of all things be the focus of the movie was without the doubt the least interesting thing they could've done. To make things even worse, which is hard to believe, they didn't even do anything new with Freeza or anyone else. It was as generic as a story could get.

In terms of the idea of Freeza being brought back, I think it should've only been done for the TOP, as they actually used him in new and creative ways, but he should've been sent right back to hell after.

[JulieYBM]

I like seeing Freeza battle words with others. I just wish he'd get some more concrete development in the Golden Freeza arc.

[emperior]

I would say Resurrection F is useless but I am actually happy it happened because Freeza has been so damn entertaining ever since he was brought back again for the Tournament of Power.

If Resurrection F never happened then Goku would have had no reasons to bring back Freeza for the tournament.

[Grimlock]

I don't know about that. I mean Beerus occasionally mentions Freeza and that's what made Goku had the idea to call him. Then they discuss the idea to bring Freeza back and no mention of the Movie 15 events. That feels to me like Freeza would be up for consideration even if Movie 15 hadn't happened (which would've been much better).

[emperior]

I don't know about that. I mean Beerus occasionally mentions Freeza and that's what made Goku had the idea to call him. Then they discuss the idea to bring Freeza back and no mention of the Movie 15 events. That feels to me like Freeza would be up for consideration even if Movie 15 hadn't happened (which would've been much better).

Now that I think about it you might be right. I never realized that the dialogue implies only Freeza won’t repent so it’s possible that guys like Cell eventually repented.

But then it’s clear that only Goku and Vegeta can deal with Freeza if he goes rogue, as Goku says, so they are all well aware of how strong Freeza is and that’s why Goku thought of reviving him. Golden Freeza is an high risk high reward gamble. The old Freeza would be just another guy well weaker than everyone who isn’t an Earthling.

And we also know that both Goten and Trunks are far stronger than Freeza was when Future Trunks killed him, so why would they want him if any of the kid will be a better alternative?

And why would Beerus think of Freeza and his army? Because he saw Goku killing him with his own eyes.

That’s why Resurrection F is needed.
The only way they could have justified Freeza’s resurrection without Movie 15 ever happening is if someone told Goku that Freeza got a lot stronger in hell due to mental training, but that would feel like a last minute asspull to justify Freeza’s inclusion.

[LoganForkHands73]

I don't know about that. I mean Beerus occasionally mentions Freeza and that's what made Goku had the idea to call him. Then they discuss the idea to bring Freeza back and no mention of the Movie 15 events. That feels to me like Freeza would be up for consideration even if Movie 15 hadn't happened (which would've been much better).

Now that I think about it you might be right. I never realized that the dialogue implies only Freeza won’t repent so it’s possible that guys like Cell eventually repented.

But then it’s clear that only Goku and Vegeta can deal with Freeza if he goes rogue, as Goku says, so they are all well aware of how strong Freeza is and that’s why Goku thought of reviving him. Golden Freeza is an high risk high reward gamble. The old Freeza would be just another guy well weaker than everyone who isn’t an Earthling.

And we also know that both Goten and Trunks are far stronger than Freeza was when Future Trunks killed him, so why would they want him if any of the kid will be a better alternative?

And why would Beerus think of Freeza and his army? Because he saw Goku killing him with his own eyes.

That’s why Resurrection F is needed.
The only way they could have justified Freeza’s resurrection without Movie 15 ever happening is if someone told Goku that Freeza got a lot stronger in hell due to mental training, but that would feel like a last minute asspull to justify Freeza’s inclusion.

Pretty much. As bad as both the Resurrection F movie and certainly the Super arc adaptation of it are, they are retroactively validated by Frieza's eventual return in the Tournament of Power, which was one of the best decisions. That doesn't excuse the overall poor quality of the Resurrection F storyline, though. It is a shame that after the risks taken with Battle of Gods, they felt the need to fall back on such a lazy, safe concept with the sequel, purely to sate fans who wanted more action and transformations.

While yeah, I certainly think Resurrection F was in many ways a wasted opportunity, it's important to remember the context of how Frieza's character was presented beforehand. Ever since Frieza died to Future Trunks, he became an absolute joke. Toei's anime filler set in the Other World would routinely show him as an ineffectual comedic duo with Cell, always hatching failed schemes to escape Hell, and he gets trounced with zero effort by Paikuhan. Then GT made him even more laughable as child-bodied Goku makes a joke out of him and Cell. Fusion Reborn sees Frieza get taken out in one punch by Great Saiyaman Gohan - not just knocked out, but blasted into atoms. Even Yo! Son Goku and Friends Return lowkey dunks on him by presenting two goofy villains who are described as close to Frieza or Ginyu's level that Goten and Trunks can battle fairly easily, with Goku even saying outright that Frieza wasn't that strong of a threat in hindsight. Ouch.

So yeah. Frieza's reputation was in dire straights. Then Resurrection F comes along and recontextualises everything with the reveal that Frieza was never even close to 0.00001% of his full potential on Namek, as he'd never trained a day in his life. We then get to see just how far Frieza can get with a mere four months of intensive training. Even if all that stretches suspension of disbelief, which I agree with, it does eventually lead to Frieza joining Team U7 and contributing hugely to the Universe Survival arc, so Resurrection F's existence is a slightly painful price to pay for that in hindsight imo.

EDIT: Also, I've always loved the idea that Cell eventually repented and got reincarnated, presumably as a really tall human with pointy hair who likes the colour green.

[theherodjl]

He definitely needed a comeback since Freeza was pretty much a joke the minute he got diced by Trunks. Freeza then made sporadic appearances in the anime & movies, most or even all of his scenes depicting him in a humorous light.
ROF definitely returned Freeza to form as a genuine threat and it has us wondering what-all he is capable of achieving after creating his own pseudo-God form, one that he obtained and also perfected with considerably less effort than Goku & Vegeta. The sky is the limit for where Freeza can go from here on.

[Matches Malone]

He definitely needed a comeback since Freeza was pretty much a joke the minute he got diced by Trunks.

The only thing his comeback achieved was making him an even bigger joke. At least he was still considered a major threat when he went to earth with his father. Out of all of DB, both in terms of series and movies, RF was the first and so far only time a major villain wasn't considered a threat to anyone. Goku was in control of their fight for the majority of it, with Freeza barely escaping through cheating. When Goku was out of the picture, Vegeta was right there to humiliate him even more. Even after blowing up the planet, Whis got involved, which allowed Goku to kill him AGAIN. Never in DB's history has a villain been handled as poorly as Freeza was in RF.

Thankfully he was handled well in the tournament, but that was tossed out the window in favor of literally making him a gag character in Broly.

ROF definitely returned Freeza to form as a genuine threat.

To who ? Roshi and the other weaker characters ? He was less of a threat than Pilaf and Garlic Jr. were during their time in the spotlight, that's how bad he was handled in RF. By the time he transforms, there's already not one, not two, not three, but FOUR characters who were already stronger than him. To emphasize just how outclassed he was, he needed to cheat in the saddest way to just take out the first one he fought, and by then he was on death's door. He was treated with such little respect that even Bulma was insulting him, to his face no less.

[LoganForkHands73]

He definitely needed a comeback since Freeza was pretty much a joke the minute he got diced by Trunks.

The only thing his comeback achieved was making him an even bigger joke. At least he was still considered a major threat when he went to earth with his father. Out of all of DB, both in terms of series and movies, RF was the first and so far only time a major villain wasn't considered a threat to anyone. Goku was in control of their fight for the majority of it, with Freeza barely escaping through cheating. When Goku was out of the picture, Vegeta was right there to humiliate him even more. Even after blowing up the planet, Whis got involved, which allowed Goku to kill him AGAIN. Never in DB's history has a villain been handled as poorly as Freeza was in RF.

Thankfully he was handled well in the tournament, but that was tossed out the window in favor of literally making him a gag character in Broly.

ROF definitely returned Freeza to form as a genuine threat.

To who ? Roshi and the other weaker characters ? He was less of a threat than Pilaf and Garlic Jr. were during their time in the spotlight, that's how bad he was handled in RF. By the time he transforms, there's already not one, not two, not three, but FOUR characters who were already stronger than him. To emphasize just how outclassed he was, he needed to cheat in the saddest way to just take out the first one he fought, and by then he was on death's door. He was treated with such little respect that even Bulma was insulting him, to his face no less.

I won't deny that the execution of Frieza's modern storylines has sometimes been poor but I think it's harsh to say he's more of a joke now than he was post-Namek. He still has a gravitas even when he's not the main villain, which is more than can be said when he was reduced to minor cameos and humiliating defeats. He was more of a gag villain in Super: Broly but he still drives the plot and survives an hour+ long beatdown at the hands of Broly.

Frieza should never be taken lightly since he always surpasses our expectations and proves too tenacious. He wasn't technically a huge threat to Goku or Vegeta in RF especially in the wake of Beerus, but his training still made him formidable enough to make Goku get serious. And because everyone underestimated him and got too comfortable, he managed to sneak a win. Unfortunately, all that was reversed and the stakes were rendered even more meaningless, which is why I liked your idea that Frieza's destruction of Earth should've remained permanent until the gang got the Super Dragon Balls in the following arc. Such an ending would've been pretty bleak for a movie, but for Super it works.

Besides, they needed to justify him being powerful enough to be recruited to Team U7 in the first place. If RF never happened, it would have been laughable if Goku thought it was a good idea to recruit a relatively weak villain who'd been dead for decades. There's no amount of "mental training in Hell" that could have made him believably relevant. You could say that they just remove Frieza, but doing that would remove a huge focal point for the story - I'd say there basically is no Universe Survival arc without Frieza.

[Matches Malone]

He still has a gravitas even when he's not the main villain, which is more than can be said when he was reduced to minor cameos and humiliating defeats.

His training still made him formidable enough to make Goku get serious.

There's no amount of "mental training in Hell" that could have made him believably relevant.

His appearances after being killed by Trunks were terrible, I won't argue that, but his short time on earth before being killed is nowhere near as bad as fans claim it is, especially compared to RF. At least he was still considered a major threat.

I agree, but that doesn't change the fact that Goku for the most part was in control of their fight. I wouldn't be as hard on RF if he managed to pull a clean win on Goku, but he didn't. Beerus humiliated him, Goku humiliated him, Vegeta humiliated him, and finally Whis undid what little victory he managed to pull off. It was just too one sided against him for it to work for me. To be clear, this isn't just an issue I'd have with Freeza, but any villain. In order for me to care about what's going on, the villain should present some form of a threat to the heroes, and Freeza didn't at all.

And 4 months of training is believable ? At least he spent over a decade in Hell, which would make his accomplishments more acceptable than training for less than half a year.

[LoganForkHands73]

His appearances after being killed by Trunks were terrible, I won't argue that, but his short time on earth before being killed is nowhere near as bad as fans claim it is, especially compared to RF. At least he was still considered a major threat.

I agree, but that doesn't change the fact that Goku for the most part was in control of their fight. I wouldn't be as hard on RF if he managed to pull a clean win on Goku, but he didn't. Beerus humiliated him, Goku humiliated him, Vegeta humiliated him, and finally Whis undid what little victory he managed to pull off. It was just too one sided against him for it to work for me. To be clear, this isn't just an issue I'd have with Freeza, but any villain. In order for me to care about what's going on, the villain should present some form of a threat to the heroes, and Freeza didn't at all.

And 4 months of training is believable ? At least he spent over a decade in Hell, which would make his accomplishments more acceptable than training for less than half a year.

In the case of how he was presented before Trunks killed him, yeah you're right. Toei just flanderised the shit out it. Though, thinking about it, you can see some of the seeds being sown of Frieza being presented as less of a threat, namely his tacky cyborg design and the fact that he brought his daddy along like a schoolkid trying to intimidate some bullies.

I should clarify, mental training ≠ physical training - I don't think the mental training judged purely from his original power level would have been believable, assuming his situation in Hell is the same as it's presented in the movie where he's literally immobile on a tree for decades. Who's to say that he didn't get slightly better ki control from training in Hell and then improved it further with physical training upon being resurrected?

The 4 months timespan is pretty unbelievable, but I see it as kind of the point that Toriyama gave us such an outrageously specific number. Frieza is a being with such an insane amount of latent potential that in such a ridiculously short timespan he manages to get to Super Saiyan Blue level. It's more about the potential threat he could cause if he had the patience and work ethic of the Saiyans to do, say, 10 years of training. He'd be terrifyingly unstoppable.

[Grimlock]

And we also know that both Goten and Trunks are far stronger than Freeza was when Future Trunks killed him, so why would they want him if any of the kid will be a better alternative?

That's a question without an in-universe answer. Goten and Trunks should be an option since they were in charge to defend Earth in Majin Buu saga, and they were kids. Now that they are teenagers (i.e. less chances of screwing things up), there's no logical reason to simply forget or even not consider them. Goten and Trunks are stronger/better options than Muten Roshi and Tenshinhan, but we still had to put up with these two.

And why would Beerus think of Freeza and his army? Because he saw Goku killing him with his own eyes.

Because as far as Beerus was concerned, Freeza and his army was the strongest beings (except for dialogues in Xenoverse 2, it doesn't seem like Beerus knew about Majin Buu, and if he knew, Beerus probably also knew that he was imprisoned and Whis probably told him that taming Buu would be an impossible task).

The only way they could have justified Freeza’s resurrection without Movie 15 ever happening is if someone told Goku that Freeza got a lot stronger in hell due to mental training, but that would feel like a last minute asspull to justify Freeza’s inclusion.

I honestly think I would prefer mental training. Sixteen years of mental training sounds better than just four months of training. It would be no more of an asspull than most of asspull Dragon Ball already has.

[Matches Malone]

I should clarify, mental training ≠ physical training - I don't think the mental training judged purely from his original power level would have been believable, assuming his situation in Hell is the same as it's presented in the movie where he's literally immobile on a tree for decades.

Who's to say that he didn't get slightly better ki control from training in Hell and then improved it further with physical training upon being resurrected?

The 4 months timespan is pretty unbelievable, but I see it as kind of the point that Toriyama gave us such an outrageously specific number. It's more about the potential threat he could cause if he had the patience and work ethic of the Saiyans to do, say, 10 years of training. He'd be terrifyingly unstoppable.

They could've easily changed his Hell setting to where he was able to move around freely.

Freeza himself said that he was rusty due to being in hell for so long, so he didn't gain anything during his time there.

I get that Toriyama was trying to impress us with Freeza's accomplishment, but it was too much of a leap for me to accept.

[Mad Swami]

Overall...no. The idea is pretty lazy and silly. Especially the dumb way they keep him relevant. 4 months? come on. Although, honestly he became the best part of Super. He had the most growth, he was entertaining, the art with him was when the show was at it's best, and in the Broly movie, I think he was awesome. I love the sinister nature. He took the biggest beating but still leaves with a smile as if he didn't. However, I will still have to say no.

The good things in the T.O.P don't make up for the bad concept and RoF

[LoganForkHands73]

I should clarify, mental training ≠ physical training - I don't think the mental training judged purely from his original power level would have been believable, assuming his situation in Hell is the same as it's presented in the movie where he's literally immobile on a tree for decades.

Who's to say that he didn't get slightly better ki control from training in Hell and then improved it further with physical training upon being resurrected?

The 4 months timespan is pretty unbelievable, but I see it as kind of the point that Toriyama gave us such an outrageously specific number. It's more about the potential threat he could cause if he had the patience and work ethic of the Saiyans to do, say, 10 years of training. He'd be terrifyingly unstoppable.

They could've easily changed his Hell setting to where he was able to move around freely.

Freeza himself said that he was rusty due to being in hell for so long, so he didn't gain anything during his time there.

I get that Toriyama was trying to impress us with Freeza's accomplishment, but it was too much of a leap for me to accept.

Fair enough. I wasn't disagreeing that the leap was ridiculous, just that that was probably Toriyama's intention.

I prefer his Hell being the way it is in the movie, though. It actually looks like a torturous punishment. The idea of all the villains just being free to wander around wherever they please like in anime filler was always ridiculous to me. How on earth would anyone in the Other World be able to keep them all in check? King Yemma's headlock can only work on so many, lol.

[Kagari]

No. He's been treated like a creator's pet, shoved into stories where he doesn't really belong, and highlighting the modern series' over-reliance on nostalgia pulls. It takes away the impact of the original series if they're constantly trotting out Freeza again and again. Would prefer to have seen more new things than just... Freeza again and again.

[Matches Malone]

Would prefer to have seen more new things than just... Freeza again and again.

Exactly. I love Freeza just as much as anyone, but his story should've remained closed after his death, especially now. Trunks killing him (for me) was the perfect way to kill him off, as he died at the hands of a Saiyan royal. It also adds to Trunks accomplishments, as he succeeded where his father and grandfather failed in avenging their race. Bringing him back just undoes all of that.

[Lord Beerus]

I've enjoyed his appearances for the most part and his dynamic with Goku in the Universal Survival arc was A+ material. But I can't help but feel in the grand scheme that Freeza's return(s) have been a major case of Toriyama in general having little to no faith in believing he can create a new and interesting antagonist without having to go down the old nostalgia well.

And it's such as shame because Beerus was such a wonderful change in pace when it came to antagonists in Battle Of God, and I wish he would have kept up that trend.

But if Resurrection F was an indication of anything, it's that Toriyama is just as guilty as Toei and Toyotaro when it comes to character favouritism, shameless pandering and just phoning it in.