Forced Spirit Fission (transformation)

[Super Murjin]

Remember two years ago when Goku's Ultra Instinct (Sign/Omen) was only known as a state of mind/ a technique ... and then the silver/white haired form came along shortly afterwards being known as Ultra Instinct. It became Goku's most powerful transformation to date.

What if Vegeta's Forced Spirit Fission has a similar path? What if Vegeta in his battle with Moro in chapter 62 forces Vegeta to transform into a Spirit form?

Maybe Vegeta would be transparent like a ghost or a spirit and be able to perform every Spirit Control technique with ease such as:
Instant Teleportation, Cloning, Gigantification, Healing, Forced Spirit Fission.

Would it be called Spirit Control Vegeta? Or Forced Spirit Fission Vegeta?

This would be Vegeta's answer to Goku's Ultra Instinct. They would be each other's equivalent.

Thoughts?

[Magnificent Ponta]

The OP made me go back and check through the manga, and Ultra Instinct has in general mostly been described as a "technique" or a "move", but has also been called a "state" or (increasingly) a "form" - I don't know if the Japanese term for "form" is as much of a general 'catch-all' as its English equivalent, or denotes something more specific - but to date, Ultra Instinct has never actually been referred to as a "transformation", and unless we get an explicit statement to the contrary, I'd say it isn't one.

However, I do think that Vegeta's Spirit Control is meant to be his answer to Ultra Instinct, as both seem to enhance the power projection abilities of the user - Ultra Instinct seems to enhance power projection through quality of movement, whereas Spirit Control seems to enhance it through quality of ki control; either way, each allows the user to wield power much greater than that implied merely by the size of their ki. I think that Dragon Ball Super is moving in a direction that dissociates the true heights of power that Goku and Vegeta can attain from the power given to them by transformations alone (though Vegeta is still using SSjB^e as well, and may do for the foreseeable future). So, I don't see Spirit Control taking on the character of a transformation at any point, any more than Ultra Instinct is one.

If the series continues, it will be interesting to see whether Vegeta goes further with Spirit Control and delves deeper into it to get some of the more esoteric abilities associated with it, rather than stopping with Forced Spirit Fission, whether he returns to Yardrat or continues doing it on his own. I hope he does. Goku's arc is, naturally, firmly fixed by this point on using the full Ultra Instinct at will and then mastering it entirely, which is more than enough of a challenge.

[Grimlock]

Ultra Instinct has never actually been referred to as a "transformation", and unless we get an explicit statement to the contrary, I'd say it isn't one.

Does Goku undergo a change in his physical appearance?

[Magnificent Ponta]

Ultra Instinct has never actually been referred to as a "transformation", and unless we get an explicit statement to the contrary, I'd say it isn't one.

Does Goku undergo a change in his physical appearance?

A change in appearance isn't necessarily indicative of a transformation, in and of itself - there are various techniques that afford a change in the appearance of the user without being transformations (Piccolo's gigantification technique, Roshi's bulked power-saturated Kamehameha form, etc.). Invariably, a transformation also comes with a sharp rise in the size of one's ki, and it's not at all clear that this is what happens when Ultra Instinct (Omen or otherwise) is activated, either.

If you regard Ultra Instinct to just be a transformation like other transformations, only giving the user a bigger ki than the others, you'd be hard-pressed to explain why, for instance, when Goku activates Omen and Android 18 asks if Goku's come back stronger than ever, Piccolo just replies that he can't tell because Goku's ki can't be sensed. Piccolo has already stated that Goku's clearly way stronger than he used to be in SSjB, so if Omen were just a transformation that affords an even bigger ki, he'd just say 'yes', surely?

[Grimlock]

A change in appearance isn't necessarily indicative of a transformation, in and of itself - there are various techniques that afford a change in the appearance of the user without being transformations (Piccolo's gigantification technique, Roshi's bulked power-saturated Kamehameha form, etc.). Invariably, a transformation also comes with a sharp rise in the size of one's ki, and it's not at all clear that this is what happens when Ultra Instinct (Omen or otherwise) is activated, either.

Those are the ones that I think it is up for debate actually. However, there is no comparison to be made between them. What happens to Goku is nothing like getting bulked or giant, the hair and the eyes change color, it's a transformation.

If you regard Ultra Instinct to just be a transformation like other transformations, only giving the user a bigger ki than the others, you'd be hard-pressed to explain why, for instance, when Goku activates Omen and Android 18 asks if Goku's come back stronger than ever, Piccolo just replies that he can't tell because Goku's ki can't be sensed. Piccolo has already stated that Goku's clearly way stronger than he used to be in SSjB, so if Omen were just a transformation that affords an even bigger ki, he'd just say 'yes', surely?

I'm not regarding it to just be one thing. If you say that Ultra Instinct refers to the technique itself and the change in physical appearance is something else entirely, I will agree. But that is where we remember that they haven't explained why Goku has to transform in order to use Ultra Instinct, when nobody else needs to. And in the absence of an explanation, it's convenient to call it "Ultra Instinct" too (seeing that I'm sure they won't ever provide an explanation and the actual name for the form).

[Magnificent Ponta]

Those are the ones that I think it is up for debate actually. However, there is no comparison to be made between them.

You're right, there isn't a real comparison here - if anything, I'd say the change in appearance from those techniques is much more radical than the observable changes Goku makes when undergoing transformations - having your hair change colour is nothing like as radical as becoming bigger than a house, on the face of it, but it's the much larger ki that actually matters here. Which underlines my point that changes in appearance aren't necessarily indicative of transformations, and don't matter so much - so what really counts, and what we should be paying strict attention to, is what the characters call transformations.

Goku's SSj and God forms are all called "transformations" many times - people from other universes call them that (e.g., the Pride Troopers, when Goku goes SSj), Angels call them that (Whis tells the Grand Priest that Goku has 5 transformations in total), and Goku himself calls them that (e.g., in the fight with Toppo, but many times elsewhere). Given the readiness of the series to just come out and call a transformation a transformation, it is striking that Dragon Ball Super has not yet once called Ultra Instinct a transformation, even when Goku demonstrates it - the closest anyone has got is the word "form" (which can mean a huge number of different things in English; perhaps the Japanese word rendered "form" means something less generic?); to the best of my recollection, Goku himself never even calls it a form, let alone a transformation - it's either a "technique" or a "move", to him.

Now, I accept that at some future point this assessment may be overturned by further detail in the series, but from what we've seen so far, I don't see any reason to do anything but take the characters at their word, accept that Ultra Instinct is a technique only, which happens to change one's appearance when activated, and not multiply solutions beyond necessity by postulating a transformation into the bargain.

I'm not regarding it to just be one thing. If you say that Ultra Instinct refers to the technique itself and the change in physical appearance is something else entirely, I will agree.

Again, at this stage in the story, I don't see a reason to agree to this premise. The change in appearance is described more than once as indicative of just activating the technique - Whis, Beerus, and all the other Gods of Destruction also recognise it that way, instantly and without prompting. Goku isn't doing something different like activating a transformation unique to himself to facilitate a more specific technique, he's just using the technique straightforwardly.

But that is where we remember that they haven't explained why Goku has to transform in order to use Ultra Instinct, when nobody else needs to.

Nobody else has even been observed to use Ultra Instinct yet, with the possible exception of Angels like Whis (who are a different type of being entirely, and whose hair - lest we forget - is naturally silver anyway). Even Beerus hasn't got as far as activating Omen yet, as he freaks out when Goku does it for the very first time in the Tournament of Power and exclaims, "That jerk Goku pulled off Ultra Instinct before me..?" So, saying that a transformation is 'needed' is highly premature, since we have a sample of 1 for showing us what Ultra Instinct really looks like.

[Grimlock]

if anything, I'd say the change in appearance from those techniques is much more radical than the observable changes Goku makes when undergoing transformations - having your hair change colour is nothing like as radical as becoming bigger than a house

You think so? I think it's the other way around. Changing colors and hairstyle are much more radical than just getting bulked or bigger than a house.

Goku's SSj and God forms are all called "transformations" many times - people from other universes call them that (e.g., the Pride Troopers, when Goku goes SSj), Angels call them that (Whis tells the Grand Priest that Goku has 5 transformations in total), and Goku himself calls them that (e.g., in the fight with Toppo, but many times elsewhere). Given the readiness of the series to just come out and call a transformation a transformation, it is striking that Dragon Ball Super has not yet once called Ultra Instinct a transformation, even when Goku demonstrates it - the closest anyone has got is the word "form" (which can mean a huge number of different things in English; perhaps the Japanese word rendered "form" means something less generic?); to the best of my recollection, Goku himself never even calls it a form, let alone a transformation - it's either a "technique" or a "move", to him.

It's very tricky to go solely by characters' statements. They never said that Ultimate is a transformation, in the manga continuity it seems to be a permanent state. However, in the anime, it has always been one. We see Gohan transforming into it in Movie 13 and Movie 14. And if you still had any doubt about it, Toei outright confirmed it but still refraining from calling it a transformation. Though there is evidence to sustain this point of view: Gohan's hairstyle change, in Dragon Ball Super - a bang appears and the permanent outlined eyes while in the form.

from what we've seen so far, I don't see any reason to do anything but take the characters at their word, accept that Ultra Instinct is a technique only, which happens to change one's appearance when activated.

A reason would be knowing the word "transformation" and its meaning. I can't simply ignore it. I see a radical change in physical appearance, I call it transformation. Except for the ones that can be discussed like I said, once I acknowledge that the character suffers a physical change, for whatever reason, the transformation is there, there's no denying in that.

Nobody else has even been observed to use Ultra Instinct yet, with the possible exception of Angels like Whis (who are a different type of being entirely, and whose hair - lest we forget - is naturally silver anyway). Even Beerus hasn't got as far as activating Omen yet, as he freaks out when Goku does it for the very first time in the Tournament of Power and exclaims, "That jerk Goku pulled off Ultra Instinct before me..?" So, saying that a transformation is 'needed' is highly premature, since we have a sample of 1 for showing us what Ultra Instinct really looks like.

I don't remember all the details, but I think I've seen people saying Beerus used Ultra Instinct in his fight against the other Gods of Destruction in the manga and I don't recall any transformation and I would say Whis was using it while training Goku and Vegeta in Movie 15. I don't think it's premature, because no other technique makes the user to transform. If Ultra Instinct is just a technique, Goku would be able to use it in base form, no transformation involved at all or at best, Ultra Instinct would merely provide an aura that may look like the user changed, something like Kaioken.

[Magnificent Ponta]

You think so? I think it's the other way around. Changing colors and hairstyle are much more radical than just getting bulked or bigger than a house.

I look at it this way - when Gohan comes back home in SSj, Chi-Chi's first reaction is that he's dyed his hair and become a punk. It's much more susceptible of a 'normal' explanation than becoming 50 feet tall, so yes, I'd say it's a less radical change in appearance.

It's very tricky to go solely by characters' statements. They never said that Ultimate is a transformation, in the manga continuity it seems to be a permanent state. However, in the anime, it has always been one. We see Gohan transforming into it in Movie 13 and Movie 14. And if you still had any doubt about it, Toei outright confirmed it but still refraining from calling it a transformation. Though there is evidence to sustain this point of view: Gohan's hairstyle change, in Dragon Ball Super - a bang appears and the permanent outlined eyes while in the form.

Since this discussion focuses on manga-only content as per the OP (Forced Spirit Fission and Spirit Control, at the moment, are only represented in the manga), I think it is hazardous to try introducing anime-only content as relevant evidence here. The best likelihood we have of getting a consistent picture of what the Dragon Ball Super manga is trying to tell us, is to confine our enquiry therein. And frankly, statements like those I've adduced are the principal way the manga imparts information to the readers, so I think trying to dismiss them out of hand is unwarranted.

A reason would be knowing the word "transformation" and its meaning. I can't simply ignore it. I see a radical change in physical appearance, I call it transformation. Except for the ones that can be discussed like I said, once I acknowledge that the character suffers a physical change, for whatever reason, the transformation is there, there's no denying in that.

Since we've already seen that radical physical changes can occur from techniques rather than just transformations, I'm afraid I find this line of argument on its own less than compelling, particularly when so far there's no statement that Ultra Instinct is a transformation, and pretty much all descriptions of it in the manga are that it is a technique. If it's all you really can marshal in support of your contention, I'm afraid it won't convince me.

I don't remember all the details, but I think I've seen people saying Beerus used Ultra Instinct in his fight against the other Gods of Destruction in the manga

Strictly speaking, what Whis says is of Beerus is that "His body can sense attacks and make decisions to dodge them" (before saying Beerus isn't perfect at it, after he gets caught by Mosco), which no doubt fans have used to infer that Beerus is using Ultra Instinct, but this is not a definitive statement - in fact, the statement by Beerus I referenced earlier shows he isn't using Ultra Instinct, or even Omen (as he says, Goku has done it "before me"), but something more like Roshi uses in the Tournament of Power, i.e., the same technical principle, but not actually Ultra Instinct itself.

If Ultra Instinct is just a technique, Goku would be able to use it in base form, no transformation involved at all or at best, Ultra Instinct would merely provide an aura that may look like the user changed, something like Kaioken.

Firstly, it's not at all clear that Goku can't use it in base - in his most recent outing of Omen, he specifically comes out of SSjB and into base before activating Omen. If you're not already wedded to the idea that Omen is itself a transformation, then I'd say that looks like base usage. Really, introducing the idea of 'transformations' at all prejudges the question in a way that isn't warranted by the manga evidence.

Secondly, referencing Kaio-Ken doesn't entirely help your argument here - when Goku uses Kaio-Ken x3 against Vegeta, his muscles swell noticeably and his eyes start to glint for as long as he uses the technique; both of these are changes to his usual appearance, but Kaio-Ken certainly isn't a transformation. Looking at statements like this one, I'm not sure where the substantive distinction is supposed to be drawn between 'it's a transformation because they look different' and 'it's a technique that makes it look like the user changed', in your argument. Apparently there is one, but it seems much less obvious than just concluding that some techniques change appearance, and that transformations also change appearance, but that Ultra Instinct is a technique because the manga consistently tells us it is.

[ChronoTwigger]

Ultra Instinct it's more like a state of deep conscious focusing - there is some martial art myth about a mind condition where you move more by muscular memory than actual conscious reaction - a kinda "alpha waves" state.

So, I think "condition" is the right word to describe it.

Oh, well, now I have an exact example of that on top of my mind.
Obviously this make you a more efficient fighter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ny5vu5QzZJA