Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by Zelvin » Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:04 am

Peach wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:58 pm
The writers don't put a lot of thought into their numbers.
That's incorrect. Toriyama did initially just throw out numbers he thought were big because he really wasn't thinking about it. Which is why he pretty much gave up on trying to give numerical figures for the rest of the series. Toyotaro gave a value to Magetta that is easily shown to be woefully inaccurate or just being completely ignorant of everything that's come before. It's why there's no mention of Magetta's weight in the Anime. They just say he's a MetalMen and that these are his traits.
They also said there's 24 planets left in the universe.
Incorrect. Shin's statement is more in line of worlds or civilizations with advancement on the level of Earth's that may have fighters that could help in the ToP. The whole idea of there being only "24 planets in the universe" is proven immediately wrong by Freeza's Empire, the Galactic Patrol, among other things. So we know that's not what was being implied. Never mind the fact Shin has proven utterly useless as a Supreme Kai.
And one of the first things Frieza said when he got revived was training to get a power level of 1.3 million lol.
An initial goal and nothing more. Recall, his original Base power was 530thousand. Bumping his base up to 1.3mil would be more than doubling his base level. By the end we can see that Freeza blew way passed that goal since, as he openly states himself, that he's never trained before in his life and there's no telling how much power he could draw out if he were to begin training intensely.
Hugo Boss wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:17 am
I think they didn’t care about proper representation of weight either in the anime or in the manga. It’s just to give you the sense that Magetta is quite heavy. And to illustrate how far Kale is from Super Saiyan Vegeta maybe.
The thing is that the Anime does show weight training being use effectively and with the perspective changes of the weights themselves being used it gives a far greater impression as to how much is actually being lifted by Goku and Vegeta. All done without having to give a specific value. Again, Toyotaro's mistake was giving a specific number that can be easily discredited, laughed at, and proven to be an incredibly low figure. As I've already demonstrated.

It's as people have said for a good long while now. Toyotaro just is not a good writer.
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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by The Undying » Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:16 am

Base Goku couldn't lift 40 tons in the Boo arc. This same Goku is stronger than characters that could casually destroy planets.

There's no numeric inconsistency between the Super manga and the original manga.
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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by Yuli Ban » Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:39 am

Because of bullshit. Just have fun with it!
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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by Skar » Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:59 am

I know there isn't much thought put into the numbers but maybe the general idea is that physical strength doesn't increase proportionately with their ki and destructive capacity. For example, kid Goku could lift a car and push a boulder weighing a few tons but couldn't lift 40 tons in the Buu saga even though his ki increased by a few million times in that time. There are probably some holes in this theory but I thought I'd toss it out there.

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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by The Undying » Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:48 am

Skar wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:59 am
I know there isn't much thought put into the numbers but maybe the general idea is that physical strength doesn't increase proportionately with their ki and destructive capacity.
I think what you're trying to say here is that their ki's destructive capacity isn't equal to their physical strength. I agree.

They probably do increase proportionately in some way though. Adding a million units in ki output might reflect about ten more tons in strength output, for example.
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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:55 pm

The Undying wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:48 am
Skar wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:59 am
I know there isn't much thought put into the numbers but maybe the general idea is that physical strength doesn't increase proportionately with their ki and destructive capacity.
I think what you're trying to say here is that their ki's destructive capacity isn't equal to their physical strength. I agree.
I always thought this was one of the natural interpretations of Toriyama's statement about ki in the Super Exciting Guide, when he said, "No matter how much you train, there are limits to physical strength, and the only way to overcome that is through ki. I think Goku was able to approach the mightiest warriors in the universe through strengthening his ki."

But honestly, lifting strength isn't anything to get worked up about; it's more-or-less the least important attribute in evidence among the Dragon Ball crowd - I feel like the principal place it even gets discussed is on battle boards, where Superman fans try to use it as a reason why he'd 'pwn' Goku or whatever.

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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by Zelvin » Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:39 pm

Skar wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:59 am
I know there isn't much thought put into the numbers but maybe the general idea is that physical strength doesn't increase proportionately with their ki and destructive capacity. For example, kid Goku could lift a car and push a boulder weighing a few tons but couldn't lift 40 tons in the Buu saga even though his ki increased by a few million times in that time. There are probably some holes in this theory but I thought I'd toss it out there.
That's not really true. Why Goku struggled with a mere 40tons in Otherworld is because of things Toriyama has already said to be true; he forgets things. Toriyama openly admits he forgets details about his own works and doesn't really like to think back much on his old writing. Plus the Buu Saga wasn't even something he wanted to work on. Which is why the whole thing is such a mixed bag.

So with Toriyama, those inconsistencies can be forgiven due to these facts. Also that boulder Goku and Krillin pushed for Roshi easily weighed more than 20 tons based off its size. Toyotaro has no such excuse. It would've been easier to just say that Metalmen possess extreme mass and just leave it at that. Then readers would be able to assign figures on their own instead of disproving a set value.
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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by ChronoTwigger » Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:21 pm

"Go!" shouted Beerus, "according to my Ph.D. and Avogadro constant, Magetta molar mass, that's mean the density of atoms in a discreet amount of substance, is well under 30! You can lift him!"
"Your math is wrong!" smiled Botamo "As being actually molar mass measured by grams on mole to simplify the conversion, while you used kilograms, where a kilogram is 4,595×107 mP Planck units. So in fact Magetta mass is well above 9000!"
"Argh, his weight is well over 9000!", cringed Vegeta.
"A-hem" said Piccolo "you're talking of weight, we are talking of mass, that's another thing..."

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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:31 pm

It's the usage of a specific number for that weight that really makes things hard to believe.

1000 tons is basically nothing as far as physical strength is concerned in the grand scheme of things when you reach blowing up planets and higher.

A nondescript "Magetta weighs too much" would easily suffice and not create a discrepancy.

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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by Dragon Wukong » Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:08 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:31 pm
It's the usage of a specific number for that weight that really makes things hard to believe.

1000 tons is basically nothing as far as physical strength is concerned in the grand scheme of things when you reach blowing up planets and higher.

A nondescript "Magetta weighs too much" would easily suffice and not create a discrepancy.
As said earlier though, base Goku in the Buu saga couldn't lift 40 tons, even though in base form he's strong enough to destroy a whole planet. One could argue it'd be an inconsistency if suddenly they could lift 25 times that amount with no issue.

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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:18 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:08 pm
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:31 pm
It's the usage of a specific number for that weight that really makes things hard to believe.

1000 tons is basically nothing as far as physical strength is concerned in the grand scheme of things when you reach blowing up planets and higher.

A nondescript "Magetta weighs too much" would easily suffice and not create a discrepancy.
As said earlier though, base Goku in the Buu saga couldn't lift 40 tons, even though in base form he's strong enough to destroy a whole planet. One could argue it'd be an inconsistency if suddenly they could lift 25 times that amount with no issue.
Isn't that lacking context? If I recall correctly, he struggled to fly into the air while weighed down, but still managed it. And Super Saiyan being a 50 times boost in strength ought to make lifting 1000 tons a simple matter, especially since Vegeta in base form is surely at least stronger than Goku from back then.

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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by Zelvin » Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:22 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:08 pm
As said earlier though, base Goku in the Buu saga couldn't lift 40 tons, even though in base form he's strong enough to destroy a whole planet. One could argue it'd be an inconsistency if suddenly they could lift 25 times that amount with no issue.
And as I explained, that inconsistency is due to Toriyama being forgetful. This is still completely overshadowed by the fact in Ep3 of DBS we have Goku benching far, far more than 40tons without much issue while on King Kai's planet. Which completely retcons the earlier figure as this is even still before he attains God Ki.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Xx2UIOr8gs
After which we get Goku and Vegeta training with Whis, where the weights involved are indicated to be considerably heavier due to how much they were struggling with them. Again indicating that 1000tons would mean absolutely nothing to them. Which is why giving a stated value actually hurts the writing and why it was best in the Anime for Super to avoid giving any such values.
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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by The Undying » Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:35 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:18 pm
Isn't that lacking context?
I'd say the context is pretty clear.

The paneling and dialogue both emphasize that base Goku couldn't lift them at all. There are motion lines drawn from his entire body (as opposed to just his limbs) to visually indicate a downward trajectory the moment they were manifested. Those weights were literally pulling him to the ground because he couldn't handle them in any capacity until he was already in mid-transformation; he just happened to start transforming before they could pull him that far.

That's perfectly consistent with Vegeta's battle against Magetta. Toriyama's SEG interview flat-out states that ki output goes beyond what physical strength is capable of, regardless of how much one trains. The anime is the outlier in this case, not the manga.

It's actually not until Super that we get characters literally punching apart planets with their fists, and only from god tiers like Beerus.
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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:24 pm

It's not even really needing to blow up planets with fists. These guys can send each other flying miles away from sheer punches and survive and destroy mountains with their attacks.

The power to do that against someone that can actively resist your attacks with a similar or higher level of power? That's a lot more than lifting 1000 tons.

There's also the idea that, if their physical blows can hurt each other despite having the capability of blowing up planets and the like, then their strength must correlate to that simply by proxy. Freeza's the best example. He can survive Namek exploding in his face better than when Super Saiyan Goku blasted him. And yet Goku was putting a massive hurting on him by punching him before that.

That's a massive discrepancy between usage of strength.

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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by Zelvin » Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:54 pm

The Undying wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:35 pm
I'd say the context is pretty clear.

The paneling and dialogue both emphasize that base Goku couldn't lift them at all. There are motion lines drawn from his entire body (as opposed to just his limbs) to visually indicate a downward trajectory the moment they were manifested. Those weights were literally pulling him to the ground because he couldn't handle them in any capacity until he was already in mid-transformation; he just happened to start transforming before they could pull him that far.

That's perfectly consistent with Vegeta's battle against Magetta. Toriyama's SEG interview flat-out states that ki output goes beyond what physical strength is capable of, regardless of how much one trains. The anime is the outlier in this case, not the manga.

It's actually not until Super that we get characters literally punching apart planets with their fists, and only from god tiers like Beerus.
You're also completely forgetting the fact that these guys, long before even the Android Arc, could punch each other with such force that the shockwaves were destroying mountains. Objects that range in the hundreds of millions to billions of tons. This is not an indication of ki emissions. Indicating that an increase in their power (their ki) does correlate to physical strength, as well as speed.

Frankly speaking, 40tons is weaker than even early-mid Dragon Ball. TaoTao Pai's pillar throw is estimated in the hundreds of tons as he was shown throwing the 2ton object hundreds of km with a single toss. It is, once again, more accurate to say that the 40ton thing is due to Toriyama's forgetfulness and that there have been numerous other instances throughout the series that place Goku and co far above that scene in the Buu Saga. Thus making that scene the outlier as an extremely low showing. And what we see in Super is more of a correction.
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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by The Undying » Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:12 pm

Zelvin wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:54 pm
You're also completely forgetting the fact
I didn't forget any of that, and I doubt that Toriyama forgot the fact that he consistently escalated his own "feats" well until the end of the manga.

The issue with calcs is that they're constrained by the author's limited knowledge of terminal velocity, body mass specifications required by common actions (even basic actions, like flying or punching mountains), and values assigned by an ultra analytical fanbase that may not align with how much weight the author believes they can lift at any given moment. We know they're constrained because these characters themselves would have to weigh hundreds if not thousands of tons in order to exert the amount of force you're describing. If you can't model what happened with physics, you cannot extrapolate based on physics.

Nearly all superhuman comic artists are subject to this problem. Beyond that, we would have to go by the author's stated intention. What we can use is the actual numbers they provide, and in this case, Goku was shown to be incapable of lifting 40 tons in the Boo arc.

There's never going to be perfect harmony between calculated fan extrapolations and how a writer would personally imagine their characters' capabilities expressed in real life weight measurements. It's completely asinine to even expect it.
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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by batistabus » Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:20 pm

Because Magetta is really fucking heavy and it's a gag.

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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:01 am

Wasn't it stated in the Super Exciting Guide that the reason Goku had so much trouble with the 40 ton weights was because it's much much harder to lift weights while flying?
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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by theherodjl » Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:33 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:01 am
Wasn't it stated in the Super Exciting Guide that the reason Goku had so much trouble with the 40 ton weights was because it's much much harder to lift weights while flying?
Here's what Herms said on the SEG and Goku struggling with it.
Herms wrote:
It’s worth pointing out that it basically says the reason Goku’s weight training in Heaven was so effective was that he used Bukujutsu to float in midair as he used the weights, which made it much harder. Goku’s never shown using Bukujutsu during any of his gravity training on Kaio’s or in the spaceship (at least not in the manga, that I can remember). It also says his image training/meditation was a means to raise his maximum ki, as muscle training has a limit. Toriyama mentioned there being limits to how much training your muscles could do and needing ki to overcome that limit in the book's interview.
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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by Dragon Wukong » Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:39 pm

theherodjl wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:33 pm
Here's what Herms said on the SEG and Goku struggling with it.
Herms wrote:
It’s worth pointing out that it basically says the reason Goku’s weight training in Heaven was so effective was that he used Bukujutsu to float in midair as he used the weights, which made it much harder. Goku’s never shown using Bukujutsu during any of his gravity training on Kaio’s or in the spaceship (at least not in the manga, that I can remember). It also says his image training/meditation was a means to raise his maximum ki, as muscle training has a limit. Toriyama mentioned there being limits to how much training your muscles could do and needing ki to overcome that limit in the book's interview.
So basically, as others have said in this thread, Goku's muscles reached their maximum some time ago, and while transformations can seemingly push that further, as shown with Super Saiyan, most of the "planet destroying" power comes exclusively from ki. Goku isn't lifting using ki or anything (besides himself with flight.) Hence the difficulty.

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