Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:19 pm

Zelvin wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 6:25 pm
And yes, we can use math to absolutely prove that 40tons would mean nothing to Goku and that Magetta's supposed weight stated by Toyotaro is most certainly inconsistent and blatantly ridiculous.

Remember when Goku was a kid? Before he learned to use ki?
Image
Just to indulge the premise behind this kind of analysis for a moment - I guess I'd question as to why the anime view of this feat would be used as your default for making this kind of measurement, rather than the manga. The manga is, after all, the original work. Even if you prefer the anime, this should presumably be at least straightforwardly convertible to evaluate it in manga source material, since the same feat is depicted there.

And then, I'd question which specific drawing from the manga you'd decide to pick as the equivalent of this to make your measurements, since there are a few of them, and there are clearly visible variations between panels as to how large Goku is relative to the rock, and even as to what the rock generally looks like. Which is, frankly, unsurprising. And then I'd question, since we see this variation, how you can have confidence in applying this level of analysis.

Even leaving completely out of account the basic propriety of this kind of analysis in theory (i.e., that you can't analyse the work to this level of detail and expect to get a 'scientific' answer because there clearly wasn't any sort of 'scientific' thought behind how much weight Goku can be shown to move), how can you reliably apply it on conflicting data? Even Goku isn't drawn at the same height relative to other characters from one panel to the next; how can you use this kind of inherently variable depiction and expect to get an answer that will convince?

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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by Skar » Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:31 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:39 pm
But lifting stuff? That's small fry and should be coming with the package deal of strengthening your body with this mystical life energy stuff; even master martial artists can still lift well simply as a byproduct of their training in every other aspect strengthening their bodies.
It could be like how a boxer and martial arts could strike harder but can't lift as much as a bodybuilder. The difference wouldn't be that great in real life but ki in Dragon Ball makes for a greater difference in the two strengths. We don't know what Toriyama had in mind and all we have to go by are the numbers he provides. He had Goku and Krillin push a boulder and Tao throw a log several hundred KM but I think it's obvious he didn't sit down and calculate the strength required for these feats because they don't line up with later feats where we're given the weight. If we only consider the feats of strength that were given, they are consistent in the sense that they can lift more every few sagas. Goku struggled in 10g when his weight would be less than a ton, he later trained in 100g so his weight would be 10 tons at most, Vegeta trained in 300g which would be 18 tons, and finally Goku is shown unable to lift 40 tons in the Buu saga.

Since their lifting strength doesn't seem to scale linearly with their ki based on these feats, transforming into SSJ won't increase their lifting strength by 50x which works with SSJ Vegeta struggling to lift Magetta. BSSJ Kale was a few hundred or few thousand times more powerful than SSJ Vegeta which was apparently enough of a difference that she was able to throw Magetta out of the ring. I've noticed it's usually for VS battles against comic book characters that fans feel the need to refute these feats. Most fans would only take them at face value and not calculate feats that Toriyama likely didn't consider and assume he forgot how much they can lift in every instance where he did give the weight.

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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:01 pm

UpFromTheSkies wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:46 pm
I just assumed Magetta had the ability to make himself heavier at will.
That's Tupper's power though.
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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:13 pm

Thani wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:48 pm
I think a lot of the inconsistencies among these feats come from fans inflating the characters' power and expecting them to be far stronger than Toriyama intended
That's just it. It's not like the measurements are wrong, it's just... Toriyama never cared about that stuff. Never. So if Magetta only weights a little more than 1.000 tons, that's it. That must mean that the massive weights that Goku was lifting in the beginning of Super also weights a lot less than 1.000 tons. Makes sense? No. Stupid? Yeah. But it's canon. 1.000 tons is too much for a Super Saiyan to lift. The faster y'all accept this fact, the better.
I think it makes more sense to say that those weights were probably much more than 1000 tons, but the series is just inconsistent when it comes to things like weight lifting (especially if you're trying to mix the anime and manga continuities).
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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by mmg86 » Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:18 pm

Thani wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:48 pm
I think a lot of the inconsistencies among these feats come from fans inflating the characters' power and expecting them to be far stronger than Toriyama intended
That's just it. It's not like the measurements are wrong, it's just... Toriyama never cared about that stuff. Never. So if Magetta only weights a little more than 1.000 tons, that's it. That must mean that the massive weights that Goku was lifting in the beginning of Super also weights a lot less than 1.000 tons. Makes sense? No. Stupid? Yeah. But it's canon. 1.000 tons is too much for a Super Saiyan to lift. The faster y'all accept this fact, the better.
I agree completely. It would be one thing if the numbers given in the story for stuff involving weights were all over the place. Say, if the heavy clothes Goku wore during the 23rd Budokai were said to weigh 100 tons, but then he had trouble moving under 10x gravity... only to be shown training under like 50000x gravity on the way to Namek, and then being unable to handle 10 tons in base form during the Buu saga. The Kinnikuman manga does have extreme inconsistency of that sort, and when us readers have to deal with something like that, and for the most part we can only shrug and say "The characters are superhumanly strong... and we don't know anything beyond that. Not even the author knows anything beyond that".

However, since the numbers given for weights in Dragon Ball clearly do show increased capabilities for progressively stronger characters, we have to accept them and anything that doesn't make much sense according to real physics should be reasoned as "it makes perfect sense according to the author's VISION/UNDERSTANDING of physics".

Forgive this tangent, but i felt like giving another example of stuff that's sorta similar. During Jim Starlin's run of Adam Warlock (Marvel Comics character), Warlock had been living in distant galaxies. He was a character that could travel the universe without much difficulty. Towards the end of the run, it's said that one of those galaxies was "thousands of light-years away from Earth". So... does one traverse multiple Marvel universe galaxies in mere thousands of light-years according to Jim Starlin? Or should we dismiss the figure given in the story? It was the only time in his run that he give any measure of distance, after all...

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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by Miracles » Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:24 pm

Cause the authors intent was introducing universe six. They were not interested in showing off Vegeta but the new warriors of that world. Therefore, Vegeta not being able to lift Magetta was simply plot based. Magetta gets lifted by Kale in the TOP because the author's intent is to demonstrate her power. We know full well Vegeta would box her up. It all depends on the intention of the writer at the moment.

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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by The Monkey King » Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:51 am

The weight numbers in Dragon Ball have always been hilariously low in comparison to the physical feats the characters peform.

In the very first chapter Goku lifts and throws a Renault 5 Turbo, which is a one ton (1000kg) car.

Image

He then goes on the train wearing a 20kg/40kg turtle shell

Imagine if you could deadlift 100kg, wearing a 2kg backpack isn't going to affect you at all.


In the 23rd BT everyone is blown away at Goku's 100kg weighted clothes
Then when Goku judo flips giant Piccolo with ease (regular sized Piccolo weighs over 100kg) no one is that impressed.

Even the gravity numbers are super low, on Kaio's world Goku struggles in under 10 Gs of force and on the way to Namek he gets up to 100 Gs.

But the amount of force these characters would be under when instantly accelerating to hypersonic speeds would be in the 1000s of Gs

According to Toriyama's numbers the act of flying down snakeway at such high speeds should have crushed all of Goku's bones and organs and killed him.


In summary Toyotaro was just keeping with Toriyama tradition. :lol:
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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:42 am

The Monkey King wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:51 am
The weight numbers in Dragon Ball have always been hilariously low in comparison to the physical feats the characters peform.

In the very first chapter Goku lifts and throws a Renault 5 Turbo, which is a one ton (1000kg) car.

Image

He then goes on the train wearing a 20kg/40kg turtle shell

Imagine if you could deadlift 100kg, wearing a 2kg backpack isn't going to affect you at all.


In the 23rd BT everyone is blown away at Goku's 100kg weighted clothes
Then when Goku judo flips giant Piccolo with ease (regular sized Piccolo weighs over 100kg) no one is that impressed.

Even the gravity numbers are super low, on Kaio's world Goku struggles in under 10 Gs of force and on the way to Namek he gets up to 100 Gs.

But the amount of force these characters would be under when instantly accelerating to hypersonic speeds would be in the 1000s of Gs

According to Toriyama's numbers the act of flying down snakeway at such high speeds should have crushed all of Goku's bones and organs and killed him.


In summary Toyotaro was just keeping with Toriyama tradition. :lol:
That's similar to what happens with some franchises like Pacific Rim, where they give weights for the kaijus that make no sense for their size, like saying a certain monster is 6000 to 7000 tons, when if you do the math, it's so big that it would have to be less dense than the air around it to weigh only that much.

Or in some other franchises like Gundam where they give technical outputs for the mechs and weapons (like 50 megajoules) that would in reality make it difficult for such a heavy robot to even move, let alone going super fast and blowing up mountains like they do.

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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by theherodjl » Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:38 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:42 am
That's similar to what happens with some franchises like Pacific Rim, where they give weights for the kaijus that make no sense for their size, like saying a certain monster is 6000 to 7000 tons, when if you do the math, it's so big that it would have to be less dense than the air around it to weigh only that much.
Or how the American Godzilla(Zilla) somehow weighs massively less than the Showa Godzilla despite Zilla's physical dimensions being greater, taking about 40 Zillas to match the weight of the shorter Showa Godzilla. It would be like if there were a bunch of 8-foot-tall people running around who weighed only 5 Ibs.
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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by Aim » Sat Aug 08, 2020 1:27 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:02 am
To be able to destroy something as measly as a planet in this series requires immense strength; it's just odd that that doesn't correlate with lifting strength, an issue that the anime actually doesn't have because it has many scenes of Goku and the like casually lifting massive weights that make sense with their enormous Ki-amplified strength.
So true, even since combat strength doesn't exactly equal lifting strength, it still makes sense that these characters should easily be able to lift 1,000 tons since they are craaaazy powerful.

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Re: Why Did Vegeta Fail To Lift Magetta?

Post by Incarnate » Thu Aug 13, 2020 9:34 pm

theherodjl wrote:
Sat Jul 25, 2020 6:35 pm
Since when was 1,000 tons too heavy for SS Goku & Vegeta to lift? Goku effortlessly lifted 40 tons as a SS in the Boo arc.
First off, it's not 1,000 tons definitively. Beerus states that a Metal Man weighs at least 1,000 tons, and for all we know Otta Magetta could weigh a lot more than that (as he does look way bigger than fellow metal man Bikkura Quoitur). But anyway, as you stated yourself, Goku had to go Super Saiyan just to lift 10 tons (on each limb) in the Boo Arc. Nothing at all implies just three arcs later Vegeta should be capable of lifting at minimum 1,000 tons (x25 increase) only in Super Saiyan, especially when they struggled to move in those body suits Whis put them in.

People really do tend to over-wank Dragon Ball characters.

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