The Super Re-Read

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Yuji
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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by Yuji » Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:32 pm

The Undying wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 10:54 pmThe seeds are sown for this back in the Boo arc, but Goku's clearly reached a point where the amount of experience/power he's accumulated from fighting so many strong guys has rendered him bored and overly carefree, even somewhat cocky, for his own good. It therefore makes sense that when he finds there's still a wall to overcome, he's almost single-mindedly consumed by it; Goku lives for self-improvement as a martial artist, so this kind of stuff drives him. The Universe Survival arc specifically builds this up at several points -- first through his becoming rusty and complacent at the start of the arc, then through his reckless decision to meet Zeno, then through his overconfidence displayed in the exhibition battle against Toppo (and learning about Jiren, a mortal surpassing even a God of Destruction), then through his obsession with his "wall" to the extent he only focuses on Jiren and even deliberately knocks other fighters away so as to conserve stamina for that fight, and finally through his utter desperation in attempting to force out as much power as possible (it's really all he can figure at this point, having fought so many foes throughout his adulthood that relied on pure strength over technique) only to fail completely, ultimately having to be reminded of the basics by his most basic teacher, which forces him to re-evaluate his current approach to fighting and ascend to new heights. Power isn't everything, and while Goku is aware of this, he's now in a position where he has to recontextualize it.
Whereas Goku's overconfidence was relatively subtle in the original series, I think Super has gone quite a bit overboard with the idea - Toriyama seems stuck on Goku's boredom and cockiness as the main path for progression, considering this character arc has been tackled in only slightly different ways three times already: in Battle of Gods, Resurrection 'F' and the Tournament of Power. While I don't think it's necessarily wrong to take the character in this direction (in fact, I think it's a very organic progression from his Boo arc characterization), I do think that it is implausible at this point that Goku would become this lax and overconfident, at least by the Zen Exhibition match; he has been knocked down a peg twice before in major battles that directly referenced his overconfidence (Beerus and Freeza), he is aware of multiple universes that may possess fighters stronger than him, he has yet to surpass Beerus, and he has a less-than-stellar win/loss record in Super as a whole, most of the time needing the help from some sort of deity to pull out a scrappy win. At this point, what can Goku really brag about?

To Toyotarou's credit, I think the Tournament of Power's variation on this idea is the best so far, but it was starting to feel nonetheless repetitive.

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by Cipher » Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:02 pm

The Undying wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 3:38 pm Just want to quickly point out that Gohan says "human", not "Earthling", in Viz's version. Unless this was a post-release revision, I don't see how that's far off from the Japanese dialogue if ningen was indeed the term.

Although I guess "hitori no ningen" changes the meaning of the phrase slightly? Something like I chose to keep evolving as my own person probably does convey the statement better, in that case.
Oh. I was either misinformed or misremembering then. Wish I could edit the post. Thanks for catching that.

Maybe I was just thinking of fans' tendency to read that as meaning "Earthling" as a contrast to "Saiyan." I do think keeping "human" specifically implies the translator read it as more of an "Earthling vs. Saiyan" contrast than an "individual vs. Saiyan" contrast in the moment, since otherwise it feels slightly strange to keep "human" so directly, but I can't speak for what might have been impacting the choice at the time. It's also possible they just thought "as a human" conveyed the individualistic intent well enough.

I guess, if it's unclear at all, yes, the intent is "my own person" rather than any potential race/species reading. Without the "hitori no," I'd definitely see the case for the "as a human" route, but its presence makes the whole phrase about being an individual rather than as a member of one species versus another. (Without even touching on DB's much-discussed broad use of "human/person" to refer to Earthlings and non-Earthlings alike.)

I'd be super happy if people got the point with the Viz dialogue, but there was noted confusion about this when I was doing my own reread, so I felt like it should be noted here just in case.

This is another thing I also didn't want to/mean to derail the thread with, since I'd rather talk about all the more interesting parts of the actual story here, so forgive me if it didn't need bringing up! I also don't want to harp on translation that much, since it's easy to do as a hyper-alert fan with hindsight, but can give people the wrong impressions. This was the one line where I thought there might be something worth mentioning.

Although ... there also might be one next chapter related to Jiren's impact on Ultra Instinct that I'd forgotten about earlier. I'll re-examine the English pages before deciding if that warrants bringing up though.

Anyway, this didn't make it into my response above, but the next chapter is my favorite in all of Super up to this point.

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by batistabus » Mon Dec 14, 2020 9:34 pm

Chapter 39:

Upon my first reading, I wanted more out of the Gohan/Kafla fight. Now, I don't really care. What we get - in terms of choreography - is fun enough. This arc has so many damn fights that I'm almost happy to be spared one. As for the peanut gallery commentary, reactions towards Gohan are reminiscent of beats from DBS Broly...growing stronger during the fight, possibly surpassing the "human" level of strength without god ki, and generally just having obsurd potential. Ironically, it happens against LadyBroly (although, for the manga, I don't think it's quite as straightforward of a comparison).

Really like the smooth transition from Gohan vs Kafla to Goku vs Jiren to Vegeta vs Toppo to Kame-sen'nin/No.17 vs Kahseral/Dyspo to Freeza hiding.

Champa goes out with some dignity...or, at the very least, he doesn't panic. His rivalry with Beerus is emphasized. He blows a raspberry at Beerus and Beerus writes him off as "a jerk to the bitter end". Still, we know these brothers care about each other, as Beerus used his Super DB wish to revive U6's Earth. Even Vados, an angel who constantly takes the piss out of Champa, is left speechless staring at where Champa once stood, in what I can only describe as a semblance of loss by angel standards.

I like your analysis of all of Goku's approaches to taking on Jiren, Magnificent Ponta.

I love Elder Kaioshin calling Kame-sen'nin a fossil. Khaseral, who basically wears a scouter, repeats a lesson us DB fossil fans have heard dozens of times. His moment is very effective, and I feel sorry for those who cannot get over a few dodges. If you're in that camp, let me try to appeal to you...

Jiren is infinitely stronger than Kame-sen'nin. Killing your opponent will disqualify you. Have you ever tried to move a tiny bug in real life? I have, and sometimes, you accidentally kill it. If you must justify this "powerscaling" "inconsistency" somehow, try thinking about it like that. Jiren needs to hold back to a level he isn't used to, so Kame-sen'nin is able to dodge a few times. Additionally, Kame-sen'nin is a sen'nin, so while he'd never land an effective punch against Jiren, he can reasonably pull this off.

I don't necessarily think these mental gymnastics are necessary for this scene to work, but if I can convince anyone, it's worth a shot...

As for the implications of the scene, there's a lot. You have a true thread drawn between Goku's previous teachings, commentary on the perceptions of the fanbase in regards to strength, commentary on the direction of the manga in recent years, parallels with Jiren not understanding the teachings of his master (and thus, another "what if this happened to Goku" comparison), and a fan favorite character that has been reduced to gags getting a major moment of significance against the strongest human in all universes. It's so great that they made a figure of it, which I own.

Don't love the expression on Goku's face when he first activates Omen, but that's nitpicking. Omen actually feels like an Omen in the manga version, as opposed to the anime, where it's just as effective as the completed version, and arguably better executed.

Favorite art: Gohan/Kafla double-KO. In competitive Super Smash Bros, a double-KO is referred to as "DBZ". This is why.
Cipher wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:02 pm I guess, if it's unclear at all, yes, the intent is "my own person" rather than any potential race/species reading. Without the "hitori no," I'd definitely see the case for the "as a human" route, but its presence makes the whole phrase about being an individual rather than as a member of one species versus another. (Without even touching on DB's much-discussed broad use of "human/person" to refer to Earthlings and non-Earthlings alike.)
For what it's worth, I found this helpful. Up until now, my interpretation was that Gohan was saying he wasn't going to rely on Super Saiyan forms, so by utilizing his (Elder Kaioshin unlocked) base form, he was evolving as a Homo sapiens rather than a Saiyan. Taken like that, I found it to be a cool statement, but one that didn't fully make sense.

Chapter 40:

I'll echo Cipher's thoughts on Vegeta evolving Blue, especially when compared to the execution of the anime.

Vegeta underestimates Jiren. Not only in terms of power, but in terms of how he's willing to put his life on the line. The manga does a great job of conveying Jiren's "game" mentality, something sports manga are typically great at showcasing. Because he's hyper-focused, among the other obvious reasons, he views "worrying" about his teammates as a weakness.

Freeza plays his typical role, but betrays his intentions by glancing at the timer from the corner of his eye. I think it's a great moment that shows how committed Freeza is to winning this thing while playing to his strengths (deception and showboating, in this case). There's something endearing about him being caught in a lie that was told in order to help save our universe.

No.17's "sacrifice" works, but I feel it probably only worked as fully intended on a small portion of the fanbase. You need fans who have been around enough to remember that Artificial Humans have bombs inside of them, but also didn't remember that Kuririn wished them away (which was mentioned earlier on in the arc...). Sure, Dragon Ball characters can self-destruct without bombs, but dialogue at the end of the arc refers to this specific connection. No.18, in hindsight, doesn't react because No.17 is a "bad actor". Without knowing that for sure, it can be read as a reflection of No.18's generally aloof attitude, although it would be uncharacteristically heartless, even by her standards. Ultimately, there are plenty of hints to suggest something else is going on here, which I think is a good thing.

The Great Priest and Zenos discuss whether or not to disqualify Universe 7. It was never explicitly stated that self-destruction was against the rules, but perhaps this is a rule of the gods (God was not allowed to end his life in order to defeat Piccolo Daimao). Despite the circumstance of billions of deaths, Jiren is still upset by this stunt. That beat feels at home in the world of Toriyama.

Goku stays calm and taps into Omen once more. Jiren is getting excited.

Favorite art: Goku teleports Vegeta away while smiling at Jiren.

Bonus Chapter:

It's fun. I wouldn't mind if this tidbit got referenced in the main series in the future.

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by The Undying » Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:05 am

Yuji wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:32 pm While I don't think it's necessarily wrong to take the character in this direction (in fact, I think it's a very organic progression from his Boo arc characterization), I do think that it is implausible at this point that Goku would become this lax and overconfident, at least by the Zen Exhibition match; he has been knocked down a peg twice before in major battles that directly referenced his overconfidence (Beerus and Freeza)
Goku's no stranger to paying the price for being lax, but we'd have to consider his approach to gaining on opponents in Super's previous arcs, as well as Jiren demanding more than raw strength as an obstacle (unlike Freeza) to see how the plot provides some context for his overconfidence getting out of hand.

The manga's take on Super Saiyan Blue is a pretty good illustration of what I'm getting at, I think. As a form, it's consistently portrayed as the ultimate "Get out of jail free" card when fully powered. Goku uses something approximating its full power against Hit by switching and then attacking, which overwhelms the latter; Vegeta then uses that same approximation (using his own quick-switch method) to overwhelm Black; Goku then completes the form by absorbing its aura, using exactly 100% of its strength, which allows him to go toe-to-toe with Fused Zamasu. It's clear by the exhibition match that he's become overly dependent on Blue's trademark strength to win fights, and it's definitely easy to understand why.

Up to this point, it's only when they fight Beerus/Jiren one-on-one that Blue's full power is rendered completely ineffective, which really sells the idea of Jiren being this insurmountable brick wall above his own God of Destruction. All this time they've been using a transformation that can steamroll basically anything in its path when properly utilized - or at least compete equally with unnaturally strong opponents like Zamasu, save for being outnumbered by his "Infinite" version - but only here are they hitting real roadblocks. If you can beat True Blue, it's a big deal.

In that regard, Goku's complacency in the arc seems natural. He's obtained a form that can force the strongest (presumably, anyway) God of Destruction to get serious, a form that was also directly implied to make the Saiyans a contender for the same title in other universes outside of Beerus's jurisdiction. Those things are all established at the start of the Universe Survival arc, so it lends itself rather well to his character thread here. It's been his go-to trump card for three consecutive stories, but now he's having to re-assess old lessons and think outside the box.

I don't believe Goku is the kind of character to keep track of his wins and losses so precisely. I do think he's especially conscious of whatever historically gives him headway against strong enemies as a martial artist, though, sometimes without complete awareness of that method's shortcomings -- which is also demonstrated during the Boo arc's climax, if we're looking outside of Super.
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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:49 pm

TobyS wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 9:25 pm Yeah I don't think 17 and 18 are unable to feel pain, or be injure, I'm not sure where that's said, they just don't get tired and have infinite stamina.
Tenshinhan notes in DB #341 that Androids don't feel pain or fatigue, and in DB #352 and 353, Vegeta comments on the fact that he can't tell if he's hurting Android #18. That's not to say they don't take physical damage; they just don't feel it.
TobyS wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 9:25 pmI feel Gokus transforming saiyan body just instinctively transforms to accommodate doing UI, rather then getting a power up from UI itself.
Possibly. But it's worth noting that the series so far as been at pains to avoid describing Ultra Instinct as a transformation of any kind, whether conventionally understood or otherwise. It has been described as a "technique" (超 #39, p. 33, 40, 45; 超 #41, p. 13, 超 #42, p. 37; 超 #52, p. 40; 超 #58, p. 38, 45; 超 #59, p. 3, 11; 超 #65, p. 14, 38), a "move" (超 #39, p. 40; 超 #40, p. 9; 超 #51, p. 41; 超 #52, p. 39), a "state" (超 #39, p. 41; 超 #40, p. 12; 超 #41, p. 13), a "strange power" (超 #40, p. 9), a "trick" (超 #41, p. 32), and a "form" (超 #40, p. 45; 超 #58, p. 39; 超 #59, p. 35, 42, 44; 超 #60, p. 15; 超 #63, p. 25; 超 #64, p. 12), but never yet a transformation.

Given the lengths they've gone to avoid calling it a transformation, I feel like even using the language of transforming - even in a qualified or comparative way - serves only to mislead.
The Undying wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 10:54 pmIt's all a bit reflective of what I said earlier about preferring the Universe Survival arc as a whole over the Universe 6 Tournament -- sure, there might be lower lows, but the highs are so much drastically higher that you end up wondering if the lows even truly matter in the long run.
I feel like I've come around to this view, myself. Cipher may be right when saying that the Universe 6 Tournament arc is completely successful in achieving all it sets out to do (whereas our discussion of 超 #39 alone - Kefla vs. Gohan - shows that the Tournament of Power isn't successful at everything it does), but I feel like the ambition of the Tournament of Power as a story arc more than makes up for its few missed beats - it tries to do more, and I feel like the end product is...richer, I guess is the only way I can describe it.
Cipher wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 10:44 amI'm tempted to still only read it as him viewing them as burdens/risks rather than help though, both because deciding to allow them to fall would then be in keeping with his sense of guarded cautiousness (even if it winds up being the wrong choice, as the climax makes clear; he thinks of them as extraneous risks), and because it's difficult for me to imagine that the other Pride Troopers wouldn't cede the wish to Jiren knowing his condition for entering and that Jiren wouldn't expect as much. Toppo and Dyspo's call for help in this case also serves as the momentary distraction that allows Goku and Vegeta to escape, so he has some cause in the moment to be reconsidering how much they're worth as assets in the final moments of the fight.
Perhaps. I guess my reading puts less emphasis on Jiren as naturally very cautious. While he's not reckless or careless, I never really got the sense that Jiren has an especially heightened sense of 'risk', particularly where his teammates are concerned. The arc builds Jiren as totally unstoppable, and everyone around him knows it and says so in a matter-of-fact way. Jiren might not be so cocky as to say it, but Belmod really does capture the truth of the matter in 超 #35, when he calls the opponents "a bunch of weaklings". I don't come away with a strong sense that Jiren feels his teammates materially affect the battlefield one way or the other (or, indeed, that anything does - he says this repeatedly that "nothing will change" what's happening). While it's perhaps enough to say that his teammates aren't "necessary", then, I don't know that it quite explains the extent of Jiren's hesitation here.

Looking at the plot beat again, I still feel like there's a little more than an assessment of his teammates' worth behind Jiren's reticence to help even before he refuses - he passes Dyspo and Toppo an irritated glare even before Goku swoops in and out with Vegeta, and pauses for a long beat across a number of panels, as though he's wrestling with something - I doubt it's with a sense of their worth as allies; the most natural 'wrestling' Jiren might have, for me, was the clash between his desires and his virtuousness, both of which were built up earlier in the arc, with the former winning out - just like Belmod said it would. I agree with you that the Pride Troopers would have no hesitation in letting Jiren have the wish...but Jiren doesn't trust them; he's used to relying on himself to resolve problems. Maybe I'm looking for sub-text where there isn't any, but I still feel like Jiren's lack of trust in others feeds into an opening to act in a way that he knows is wrong, for selfish reasons, but which is nevertheless in-character.

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by TobyS » Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:27 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:49 pm
TobyS wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 9:25 pm Yeah I don't think 17 and 18 are unable to feel pain, or be injure, I'm not sure where that's said, they just don't get tired and have infinite stamina.
Tenshinhan notes in DB #341 that Androids don't feel pain or fatigue, and in DB #352 and 353, Vegeta comments on the fact that he can't tell if he's hurting Android #18. That's not to say they don't take physical damage; they just don't feel it.
TobyS wrote: Sun Dec 13, 2020 9:25 pmI feel Gokus transforming saiyan body just instinctively transforms to accommodate doing UI, rather then getting a power up from UI itself.
Possibly. But it's worth noting that the series so far as been at pains to avoid describing Ultra Instinct as a transformation of any kind, whether conventionally understood or otherwise. It has been described as a "technique" (超 #39, p. 33, 40, 45; 超 #41, p. 13, 超 #42, p. 37; 超 #52, p. 40; 超 #58, p. 38, 45; 超 #59, p. 3, 11; 超 #65, p. 14, 38), a "move" (超 #39, p. 40; 超 #40, p. 9; 超 #51, p. 41; 超 #52, p. 39), a "state" (超 #39, p. 41; 超 #40, p. 12; 超 #41, p. 13), a "strange power" (超 #40, p. 9), a "trick" (超 #41, p. 32), and a "form" (超 #40, p. 45; 超 #58, p. 39; 超 #59, p. 35, 42, 44; 超 #60, p. 15; 超 #63, p. 25; 超 #64, p. 12), but never yet a transformation.

Given the lengths they've gone to avoid calling it a transformation, I feel like even using the language of transforming - even in a qualified or comparative way - serves only to mislead.
Ah ok they don't feel pain? (I don't know how Tenshinhan could actually tell that but I concede that) But yeah I think they must be damaged by hits, 17 was beaten down before his attempted absorption, and it's just too OP.

Oh sure I prefer to not think of it as a transformation in the regular sense. But I mean his hair and eyes literally transform into some other appearance than usual.

It's not "a power up transformation" in the traditional sense implied by the word transform in the context of DB, perhaps "a technique that changes your physical characteristics" I agree with you calling it a transformation is misleading, but I guess I'm pre-empting someone who wants it to be literally pointing out what I just did, that he does 'transform' on some level. IDK. I'm probably putting more thought into it than toriyama did haha.
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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Tue Dec 15, 2020 9:14 pm

I think it's okay to refer to Ultra Instinct as a transformation in the literal sense that it physically alters Goku's body and appearance, so long as 'technique' and 'state of mind' are the imperative descriptors. I'd echo Toby's point that it can be seen as a transformation to contain a technique.

Anyway, I'm of the impression that all transformations are techniques, but not all techniques are transformations. Even Super Saiyan was referred to as a technique in-universe a few times.

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by Cipher » Fri Dec 18, 2020 4:03 am

It's all semantics, but generally I think of "tansformation" as something genetically specific, and "technique" as being something anyone can learn.

By which definition, UI would be a technique which causes changes to the user's physical apperance (not merely a Goku or Saiyan thing, as we'll see next arc), but that's really splitting (silver) hairs.

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Mon Dec 21, 2020 4:02 pm

The Super Re-Read: Chapters 41 - 44
Part 1 (Chapters 41 and 42)

Image

Welcome back to The Super Re-Read! We're finishing off the Tournament of Power arc now, and giving thoughts on the whole. Again, I've simply written too much, so I'll dive right in with credit and thanks to Kanzenshuu and its contributors - let's get re-reading!

Chapter 41 - Ultra Instinct/Ultra Instinct
21 October 2018
Chapter Notes
  • It doesn't speak volumes for the invincible majesty of Ultra Instinct when the first thing Goku does with it is get biffed hard in the face (I assume it's the face - Toyotarou often 'hunches' the necks on his figures somewhat as a stylistic quirk, so it could be the upper chest region). However, it does serve as a worthwhile contrast with how things went when he took a punch like that out of Ultra Instinct at the end of 超 #39, where he got totally laid out. Given the fact that I would count the head among Goku's "vitals", I've always been a little iffy on Whis's explanation here as to why a hit like that affects Goku so much less now (though it's a sensible enough statement, simply from the perspective of an explanation for how a primarily movement-based technique could minimise damage for its user). Fortunately, as of 超 #65, we see Goku's 'True Ultra Instinct' body instinctively become durable enough to break Moro's hand when he's at risk of impalement, so it would be reasonable to infer that there's also a somewhat diluted version of this factor at play for the 'Omen' stage as well - both instances are referred to in terms of the extent to which Goku can wield Ultra Instinct (here, Whis says "He's getting deeper and deeper into Ultra Instinct", whereas in 超 #65 he notes, "When Ultra Instinct is honed to this extent, the body will automatically grow sturdier as necessary").
  • Jiren speaks out of irritation that Goku can't win if he just dodges all the time (the statement, and the beat generally right up to and including a decisive blow to the midriff, vaguely reminds me of Goku's encounter with Recoome in DB #280, only less comical). However, despite this contention, at this point it's Jiren who's in trouble, as Universe 7 would automatically win by dint of having 4 fighters (3 that they know of, at this point) to Universe 11's one if they run down the clock. I appreciate the misdirect here, both for the other characters (Jiren included) and the audience; because Goku shows up with the latest, shiniest new technique, people are automatically drawn to assume that this is the key to victory, when in context it's almost beside the point - it speaks, after a fashion, to Goku's ability to draw in even antagonists unexpectedly (mentioned previously, for example, in 超 #12). Furthermore, I think it speaks to the effectiveness in how it is presented that makes us, the audience, forget that fact, however briefly. To be clear, I don't think Universe 7 could have won without Goku weakening Jiren through Ultra Instinct, but it still isn't the route to victory in this arc - this showing of the technique really does seem more like just the first steps in Goku's own personal struggle, looking at it from our current position at the end of the Moro arc/beginning of the Granolah arc.
  • Goku says that despite his apparently relaxed demeanour (and his willingness to chat with Jiren while dodging his attacks), it isn't easy to maintain this technique. We just saw him fall out of it at the first attempt in 超 #39, of course, but later material will give more precise information on what the issue is here - particularly in 超 #59, where Whis explains that the Omen stage of the technique "serves as the gateway to Ultra Instinct, but it isn't stable. Maintaining that instability consumes an enormous amount of stamina". The implication is that True Ultra Instinct shouldn't have this issue - Goku will fall out of True Ultra Instinct before the Chapter is finished, as well, but it's made clear that this is because he hasn't trained enough to wield it properly and withstand the toll it imposes when he has to fight someone on Jiren's level. This will become an issue again in 超 #65, when the shoe is on the other foot and Moro tries to use Angelic Power without ever having trained - Goku will point out that he trained to withstand the power, and "It's not something you can wield just cuz you feel like it". But otherwise, Goku doesn't seem to have a problem with the technique from 超 #64 onwards, and will only lose it when Moro sucks his ki away in 超 #66 - as Merus says in 超 #63, it's much more stable.
  • Goku references getting rid of "unnecessary emotions". It's interesting that he chooses that phrasing (necessity), and that Jiren in particular picks up on the word "unnecessary" - it seems to be a deliberate reference to 超 #38, where Jiren says helping his teammates is "unnecessary", and which provokes comment from Goku. I mentioned back in 超 #29 that the idea of various characters 'needing' something, or conversely believing that something or other is not needed, runs as a recurring motif through the arc - but usually, they appraise their needs wrongly, starting with the Zenos ("the Universes we don't need") and working downwards through to the main antagonist (Jiren, who thinks he doesn't need others) and now the main protagonist, with Goku thinking he's found the key to wielding Ultra Instinct. While it'll get him far enough to experience True Ultra Instinct once this time around, he turns out to be wrong, too: while he thinks of it in terms of getting rid of emotions (or "emptying my heart and mind", which vaguely echoes Popo's counsel from DB #164), Merus will clarify that this isn't what Goku should be seeking, in 超 #52 - rather, he needs to "achieve self-control in the face of a jarring shock to your emotions".
  • Goku mentions Mount Paozu. I think this is the first mention of the name in the manga, this being (I believe) the site of Son Gohan's house (rather than Goku's own, I believe, which according to Daizenshuu #4 is somewhat distant from that house). Daizenshuu #7 describes the area as "wrapped in nature with a bamboo forest and river", which would line up with Goku's mention of its "gentle streams" - these were seen in DB #1, where Goku goes fishing.
  • In particular, I like the wildly diverging approaches between Jiren, who stresses himself to the utmost and becomes extremely heated as his ki spikes repeatedly, and Goku, who calms himself into True Ultra Instinct, and stays entirely placid throughout (until the strain of using the form becomes too much for him, which is when he starts to show much expression again) - he doesn't even demonstrate an aura once he starts to reach deeper into Ultra Instinct. 超 #64 will double down on this depiction of stillness when, at the final achievement of the technique, others will comment on how quiet and still everything has become. Jiren's noisy, sturm-und-drang approach is much more familiar to us, and eventually he'll come out on top, but it's Goku's quiet and still approach that clearly leads to the more effective use of power, from what is shown. This will be a key demonstration of the superiority of Goku's new technique over Jiren's sheer power, on which more in a moment.
  • I want to note that I think the general pacing of this chapter is pretty top-notch. Toyotarou can sometimes slow things down by overdoing the panelling on some pages, or being quite keen on showing reaction shots etc., but I think this chapter makes the balance right - it lingers where it needs to (or where it's most effective), but it moves at a steady clip that shows us a good fight and a story unfolding with beats that all land satisfyingly for me.
  • Favourite art: Gosh, there's a lot to choose from here. Of course, there's that panel where Goku lands his hit on Jiren; I'm also really fond of the panel where Jiren literally pinballs around off of the floating stage debris, and the wide-shot of Goku's Kamehameha - actually, everything to do with that attack, including the aftermath (not least for its precision drilling as shown in the immediately ensuing panels, and also since it looks like an artistic counterpoint to the massive, destructive blast Jiren just fired off that almost took the crowd with it), and Jiren's response (I'm really fond of the hatching in the panel where Jiren leaps up the 'tunnel' made by the Kamehameha - Toyotarou often favours screentone, so seeing some really effective hatching is refreshing to me). Some of the art in Goku and Vegeta's combo assault on Jiren is really pretty, too, and the composition is well-considered.
  • Beerus seems oddly calm and matter-of fact whenever he sees Goku use True Ultra Instinct - not just here, but also in 超 #64. Despite his various expressions of surprise/amazement leading up to the big reveal, when it comes to the actual moment itself, it seems like the emblematic stillness of Ultra Instinct comes to play even in the reaction from Beerus - there's nothing left but recognition, resignation, and respect for Goku's achievement. Bluster and wounded pride don't have a place anymore. (Until Goku does the next thing to annoy him.)
  • There's something about the choreography of the fight that catches my attention, and I think it's how unorthodox Goku's movements are, compared to what we're used to seeing. I mean this in a good way, as for me, it really sells the idea that Goku's body is moving unconsciously, rather than Goku himself choosing to make any particular kind of move - things like the double-kick swivel that makes Jiren go pinballing, or the dodge behind Jiren leading into a heel to his back. It really does make it seem like Goku's body is just improvising and doing what seems best in that instant. 超 #64, by contrast, seems mostly to show actions that seem a little more...deliberate, somehow, and relies on selling the idea of bodily action mostly by having Goku look off elsewhere when fending off Moro's attacks (by this point something of a cliché for Dragon Ball, which is why I think it doesn't sell the specific idea of unconscious movement quite so effectively in the latter instance). So, I think this chapter manages to show that idea more effectively, and it's also interesting to see that pretty much all the hits that Goku lands on Jiren in the exchange come off the back of dodging one of Jiren's attacks. I think that goes towards Jiren's statement about "attacks that exploit openings", but it also shows that Goku has something important that is beyond Jiren's capacity, despite his earlier insistence that "not even one percent of my actions are wasted", back in 超 #40.
  • I think Jiren's blast hitting the stands does really go to show just how much leeway of depiction there must have been in Toriyama's outline draft for this arc. Whereas in the Anime, Jiren deliberately attacks the stands to make a point about the uselessness of trust, here he's just attacking Goku and the blast is so massive and powerful that it just happens to hit the stands. As this isn't a comparison thread, I'm not aiming to say which I think is preferable or why; I'm just noting how radically differently the same basic plot beat ('Jiren blasts at the stands') can land depending on just how it plays out in its depiction. I always find that interesting.
  • On that note, I think this might be the first time we've seen Vegeta just straight-up cower from an attack like that.
  • I've already mentioned that I enjoy the contrast between Jiren's messy splashing of power all over the place and Goku's precision drilling of power through his Kamehameha. Of course, the signal contrast we're getting across the whole Chapter is the return to the theme of True Strength - we had 超 #35 show up Jiren's total supremacy in 'strength' as conventionally construed, to the extent that clever tricks that might have made all the difference in some other arc mean nothing here, and 超 #39 and 40 doubled down on this by having desperate, 'beyond-the-limits' power-ups and Saiyan 'backs-against-the-wall' miracle forms get nowhere, too. It's only in 超 #39 that the crux of the issue becomes one of wielding one's power aright, which points the way for this contrast of approaches now. Not only is Goku able to wield the power he already has in such a way that is leagues beyond what he has been able to do so far (as explored at length in the last instalment), but he's able to turn Jiren's own (conventional) power against him by using the openings his powerhouse moves provide to make a precision attack of his own; Jiren sees this, but doesn't acknowledge the superiority of Goku wielding his power in this way - he explains it away defensively by saying "Attacks that exploit openings...are not true strength!!". As the fight goes on, however, Jiren will start using Goku's power against him, too, as he doubles and then redoubles his efforts in a way that turns Goku's own strength into a problem, as his wielding of the technique is still imperfect. I really like the way the fight moves back and forth on this particular theme. This will be depicted consistently, if in a rather extreme and grotesque way, in 超 #65-66 when Moro suffers the consequences of trying to wield the Divine Power of Ultra Instinct without having trained to withstand the toll it takes on the body - it ends up basically destroying him.
  • The little reaction panel from Jiren managing to grab and throw Goku gives me a chuckle, as Toyotarou thought for some reason to put a sulky non-responsive #18 into the background of Roshi's more likely response to it.
  • Jiren and Goku start moving too quickly to follow. This is hardly the first time that Goku's moved too quickly to be seen by all his peers - the first time was in DB #104, when he takes out Akkuman too quickly for even Roshi to follow. The most focus given to Goku moving too quickly to be followed was probably during the 23rd Budokai, when he even evades Tenshinhan's eyes in DB #177-178 (and of course, there's a heavy emphasis on the quality of Goku's movement in that arc in any case, starting in DB #164 when Popo shows him how he moves). Before this arc, the last time he moved too quickly to be followed by onlookers was in his counter to Hit's Time-Skipping in 超 #13. He'll move too quickly for Piccolo and Gohan to follow again in 超 #59, when he attacks Saganbo using the Omen stage of Ultra Instinct, and he'll do it again against Moro. Of the Universe 7 bench, it appears only Beerus and Whis can continue to follow him in True Ultra Instinct.
  • Vegeta diving back into the fray to narrowly save Goku from elimination when Ultra Instinct comes up short is the beginning of the theme of Teamwork displacing (or, if you prefer, redefining) the theme of 'True Strength'. Ultimately, it isn't conventional power, or a special technique, that is going to pull out the victory for Universe 7, but the team working together to provide a performance where "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts", as Belmod puts it. It's also an extra little shift in Vegeta's character from how he was 'once upon a time', as he "put aside his pride in the hope of winning", but more to the point he actively intervenes on Goku's behalf to save him. The last time he intervened like this was simply to buy time for Goku in the fight with Kid Buu; he's actively eschewed the idea of fighting with Goku again (and will do so once more in 超 #42), and their established tendency since DB #509 has been to take turns in fighting so this opportunity rarely presents itself. Still, it wasn't so very long ago that Vegeta would have rejoiced in the idea of Goku getting eliminated and leaving the fight to him to demonstrate his superiority, rather than literally leaping to his defense as he dowes here.
  • I think the revelation of Jiren's true desire for the wish is an interesting subversion of the way he's been built up - The Wall shows some cracks. I mentioned in a previous instalment that the story has (to my mind) been hinting that Jiren has deliberately chosen to allow his colleagues to be eliminated, not just because they're 'getting in the way' from a fighting perspective, but also from the perspective of standing between Jiren and the wish. Now we know what it is, and moreover Jiren notes that "I've given everything...for justice. For my master", which points up what an all-consuming fixation Gicchin has become for Jiren. As 超 #42 will note, Jiren blames himself for Gicchin's death, which we have to add to the idea expressed here, which is that Jiren seeks Gicchin's approval. Cipher has characterised it elsewhere as something of a gag that Jiren thought he needed to get stronger, and so went and got so much stronger, which I respect as a 'take', but I don't know whether 'gags' really fit with Jiren. It seems more likely to me that the aforementioned fixations have festered with Jiren to the point that he hasn't just 'not worked with the team', but has actually started to act in precisely the opposite manner to how Gicchin intended. As Vegeta points out, contrary to Jiren's solitary schtick, he is "relying on others" more than anyone, as he holds the memory (and hope) of his master in this way. I think, far from being a gag, this is poignantly twisted, and in such a way that Jiren can't actually bear to face it when Vegeta points it out.
  • And of course, the cap is set upon the Teamwork theme here, as it makes the headway that neither pure power nor the realisation of the important new technique could. I really like the idea that Whis's approach has been to draw both Vegeta and Goku into synchronicity despite themselves; while this speaks to the point that has been active since Revival of F (namely, that if Goku and Vegeta actually ever chose to work together, opponents wouldn't really cause them difficulty), it does it in a way that is true to their characters - they don't favour the idea, so the only way to draw them together in this way is to have them fight the common enemy (in training, Whis, but here, Jiren). I like the artistic expression of this point, too - Goku and Vegeta end the Chapter as perfect mirrors of each other.
  • Nobody actually got eliminated in this Chapter, so the running tallies of eliminations are as follows:
    • Kale: 17 eliminations (Zirloin, Zarbuto, and Rabanra of Universe 2, Maji Kayo, Paparoni, Bollarator, Panchia, Kotsukai, and Nigrisshi of Universe 3, Ganos, Shosa, Shantza, and Darcoli of Universe 4, Obuni of Universe 10, Magetta, Saonel and Pirina of Universe 6); Frost: 9 eliminations (Kuririn and Tenshinhan of Universe 7, Oregano, Hyssop, Rozel, Chappil, Hopp, Sorel, and Conflee of Universe 9); Freeza: 7 eliminations (Rubalt of Universe 10, Frost of Universe 6, Basil, Lavender, and Bergamo of Universe 9, Dyspo and Toppo of Universe 11); Android #17: 6 eliminations (Murisarm, Napapa, Zium, and Mechiorp of Universe 10, Botamo of Universe 6, Damon of Universe 4); Kefla: 6 eliminations (Tupper, Zoiray, Kunshi, Cocotte, Vuon, Kettol of Universe 11, and Son Gohan of Universe 7); Gamisaras: 6* eliminations (Android #18 of Universe 7, Ribrianne, Rozie, and Kakunsa of Universe 2, Murichim and Jilcol of Universe 10); Android #18: 2 eliminations (Prum and Jimeze of Universe 2); Son Gohan: 2 eliminations (Caulifla and Kale of Universe 6); Piccolo: 2 eliminations (Jirasen of Universe 10, Gamisaras of Universe 4); Vegeta: 2 eliminations (Nink of Universe 4 and Katoplesa of Universe 3); Jiren: 2 eliminations (Hit of Universe 6 and Kame-Sen'nin of Universe 7); Kame-Sen'nin: 1 elimination (Kahseral of Universe 11); Cabbe: 1 elimination (The Preecho of Universe 3); Damon: 1* elimination (Piccolo of Universe 7). (*Note: some of the eliminations credited to Gamisaras may properly be attributed to Damon).
    • The remaining rosters of fighters for each Universe are as follows:
      Universe 2: 0 (Zirloin, Zarbuto, Rabanra, Ribrianne, Rozie, Kakunsa, Prum, Jimeze, Hermila, Vikal)
      Universe 3: 0 (Maji Kayo, Paparoni, Bollarator, Panchia, Kotsukai, Nigrisshi, Katoplesa, Narirama, Viara, The Preecho)
      Universe 4: 0 (Ganos, Shosa, Shantza, Damon, Gamisaras, Darcoli, Monna, Nink, Majora, Kyawei)
      Universe 6: 0 (Kale, Caulifla, Cabbe, Saonel, Pirina, Magetta, Hit, Frost, Botamo, Dr. Rota)
      Universe 7: 4 (Son Goku, Vegeta, Freeza, Android #17, Son Gohan, Kame-Sen'nin, Kuririn, Tenshinhan, Android #18, Piccolo)
      Universe 9: 0 (Bergamo, Lavender, Basil, Oregano, Hyssop, Rozel, Chappil, Hopp, Sorel, Conflee)
      Universe 10: 0 (Obuni, Napapa, Zium, Mechiorp, Jilcol, Lilibeu, Jirasen, Murichim, Rubalt, Murisarm)
      Universe 11: 1 (Jiren, Toppo, Dyspo, Kahseral, Tupper, Zoiray, Kunshi, Cocotte, Vuon, Kettol)
Chapter 42 - Battle’s End and Aftermath/Battle’s End and Aftermath
21 November 2018
Chapter Notes
  • Having noted the clear thematic direction of the arc towards Teamwork, and the way that Jiren's personal weaknesses have undermined his team and doomed them all, I still have to say that for me, there's something about Jiren that really resonates with me. I think we've all felt the disappointments and frustrations of having to deal with and rely on people who frankly aren't worth the effort, and we've all had to set our face against circumstances to try to draw on individual power to overcome it. For me, Jiren is the very symbol of that kind of feeling, and there's something very satisfying (even invigorating) about not just seeing him answer that feeling, but seeing him totally beast his problems, find "more power" no matter how hard his problems come at him, and emerge as a person with "no limits" who can brute force his way past all his obstacles - it's probably the very peak of the intoxicating power fantasy that Dragon Ball offers its audience. But of course, it's all a mirage, as Jiren is a man with the flaw that "he doesn't trust anyone but himself", doesn't recognise that flaw (regarding it as part of his strength, in his solitary resolve to perfect himself), and as such dooms himself and his team to defeat.
  • Belmod calls Gicchin's emphasis on the need to rely on others "weak thinking", and credits his position as a God of Destruction for his antipathy to Gicchin's philosophy. Given Beerus's insistence, in 超 #32 and 超 #41, that his team should work together to win, this isn't necessarily so, but I can see a position like God of Destruction, where the Cosmic balance rests on the judgement and activity of just one person, speaking to that sort of bias. Marcarita also points out that this difference of opinion wasn't necessarily incompatible with productive engagement - Belmod and Gicchin having been friends. Toyotarou took this to an enjoyable place by imagining Belmod as a one-time Pride Trooper, quitting after some sort of 'last straw' scenario.
  • Marcarita mentions that people killed by Demons can't be revived by Angels. This is a development of something we already know from Dragon Ball, when Karin mentions in DB #162, "the souls of those who have been killed by demon-folk can't ascend...unable to pass on to the next realm, they can only drift mournfully in Limbo forever." I would guess that this, in turn, is why they can't be revived in this fashion; given this description, however, it raises an eyebrow to hear Belmod say that Gicchin "wouldn't want to be revived". A parallel between masters can obviously be drawn here, as Roshi was likewise accounted to have been slain by Demon-folk (something of a technicality, really), but was revived quite literally through the grace of God, via the Dragon Balls. Goku had the good fortune to acquire the boon Jiren has been seeking (and the opposition of their personal fortunes and its possible impact on Jiren's psyche has been much remarked upon by others). More interesting may be the contrast between the masters, in producing their respective students: Jiren's focus on perfectibility is an inheritance from Gicchin (related as it is to putting his "life on the line" in every battle and wasting no movement), though his final lesson of the importance of Teamwork went unlearned (ironic, since Jiren taunts Goku as "inexperienced" for still learning lessons from his master, in 超 #39); by contrast, the signal teaching of Kame-Sen'nin is that "No matter how strong you are, there's always someone stronger", which drives Goku's pushing of his own limits (never reaching perfection), since there will always be something new to work towards overcoming.
  • Favourite art: The climax of the Tournament of Power arc is chock-full of excellent pieces of work here: first, there's the excellent face-off involving the Kamehameha/Gamma Burst flash and Jiren's plunging straight into (and through) the flow of ki to stand, hand outstretched, as the smoke clears; there's the enjoyably dynamic Freeza Death Ball/Jiren struggle sequence; and above all, there's the fabulous splash panel where Golden Freeza spears Jiren and Goku off the stage - it's just a pity that the centre of that action goes across the page fold, as the digital version of that panel is simply beautiful - a great 'moment'. From the second half of the Chapter, the Broly vs. Goku and Vegeta panel surely deserves a mention here (I believe this was also used promotionally in some capacity? If not, it sure as heck should've been).
  • Vegeta is finally offed, casually. The breaking of the team effort sets up a beat that is seemingly the nadir of Universe 7's fortunes, as Jiren looks set to overpower Goku. However, we immediately have that replaced by two more team links, forged between mortal enemies (Goku and Freeza) and between people...who have no real personal connection at all (#17 and Freeza), but who work together to pull out the win - this is all the more significant, since typically Android #17 "isn't big on co-operating with others". Of course, the Universe 7 team composition points to the personal centrality of Son Goku, and the Story of Dragon Ball (which is his story), to its makeup: he's the person with the strongest direct connection to all of the team, whom he personally recruits, through this story - take #17 and Freeza, who share killing Son Goku as a raison d'etre (#17 has left that behind, of course, but it's still why he is the way he is). Just to run down the connections briefly:
    • Vegeta is Goku's greatest (and closest) rival; Kuririn and Tenshinhan also occupy the 'former close rival, now close friend' spot (with greater emphasis on friendship than Vegeta);
    • Piccolo, Freeza, #17, and #18 have all been sworn enemies of Son Goku (again, like Vegeta), living for the purpose of killing him and avenging some sort of defeat (for Piccolo, that of his former self/father; for #17 and #18, as instruments of Gero's revenge for the destruction of the Red Ribbon Army; for Freeza, revenge for his own defeat) - moreover, three of them (Piccolo, #17 and #18) only exist in the way they do thanks to Goku's actions in the past, and Freeza's behaviours, still evil though they are, have changed in a way that increasingly takes Goku as some sort of reference point;
    • Roshi is of course Goku's first master, and Gohan is his son (and former pupil).
    It's instructive to see the contrast fashioned with Jiren, who deliberately has no such connection with his team, standing aloof from making any, and from the process of making their respective teams (initially refusing to join until appealed to on his own individual terms); Goku is weirdly entrusted with drawing upon people he knows and has encountered in his own past to meet the challenge of 'now', whereas Jiren is personally selected by Belmod, Toppo's participation is assumed, I guess, and then "after that, anyone will do".
  • Freeza's Death Ball, artistically, seems to evoke two Namek-based sequences - one where he charges one just prior to Goku unleashing the Genki Dama, in DB #316, and one in DB #317, where he emerges atop the rock having survived the Genki Dama - two scenes of hopelessness and peril, recombined by allusion into a salvific moment for the heroes now. I also can't fail to mention Goku's resort to the Full Nelson pin on Jiren in the same way that he did for Raditz in his own self-sacrificing moment in DB #203-204; here, he gives up his own hopes of winning in a clutch moment for the greater good, helping to manoeuvre the much stronger Jiren into a position where he can be defeated.
  • I do like the fact that Goku and Jiren are, at various points, positively dripping with sweat. It helps sell their own personal exhaustion at the dying moments of the Tournament, in contrast to the lightly-scuffed Freeza and #17.
  • I enjoy the Zeno's reference to #17 hiding being a "fun plan"; as I mentioned to JackBz earlier in this thread, given what was stated in 超 #28 (about the last tournament being an inter-Universe Hide-and-Seek Tournament), it's fitting that #17 draws those resolutions together, winning the inter-Universe Tournament of power by...playing 'Hide-and-Seek', effectively. It makes sense that this would give the Zenos instinctive pleasure, given that last time "His Majesty...was truly enjoying the event" before Beerus ruined it. It's always fun to think of Dragon Ball Super as an extremely roundabout way of making up for Beerus's anti-social behaviours.
  • Aaaand at the crucial moment, time is conveniently up. For the last time, then, the various tallies. The running tallies of eliminations are as follows:
    • Kale: 17 eliminations (Zirloin, Zarbuto, and Rabanra of Universe 2, Maji Kayo, Paparoni, Bollarator, Panchia, Kotsukai, and Nigrisshi of Universe 3, Ganos, Shosa, Shantza, and Darcoli of Universe 4, Obuni of Universe 10, Magetta, Saonel and Pirina of Universe 6); Freeza: 9 eliminations (Rubalt of Universe 10, Frost of Universe 6, Son Goku of Universe 7, Basil, Lavender, and Bergamo of Universe 9, Jiren, Dyspo and Toppo of Universe 11); Frost: 9 eliminations (Kuririn and Tenshinhan of Universe 7, Oregano, Hyssop, Rozel, Chappil, Hopp, Sorel, and Conflee of Universe 9); Android #17: 6 eliminations (Murisarm, Napapa, Zium, and Mechiorp of Universe 10, Botamo of Universe 6, Damon of Universe 4); Kefla: 6 eliminations (Tupper, Zoiray, Kunshi, Cocotte, Vuon, Kettol of Universe 11, and Son Gohan of Universe 7); Gamisaras: 6* eliminations (Android #18 of Universe 7, Ribrianne, Rozie, and Kakunsa of Universe 2, Murichim and Jilcol of Universe 10); Jiren: 3 eliminations (Hit of Universe 6, Vegeta and Kame-Sen'nin of Universe 7); Android #18: 2 eliminations (Prum and Jimeze of Universe 2); Son Gohan: 2 eliminations (Caulifla and Kale of Universe 6); Piccolo: 2 eliminations (Jirasen of Universe 10, Gamisaras of Universe 4); Vegeta: 2 eliminations (Nink of Universe 4 and Katoplesa of Universe 3); Kame-Sen'nin: 1 elimination (Kahseral of Universe 11); Cabbe: 1 elimination (The Preecho of Universe 3); Damon: 1* elimination (Piccolo of Universe 7). (*Note: some of the eliminations credited to Gamisaras may properly be attributed to Damon).
    • Murisarm is first to be eliminated; Son Goku, Freeza, and Jiren are last.
    • We do not see the precise circumstances of elimination for Hermila, Vikal, Narirama, Viara, Monna, Majora, Kyawei, Dr. Rota, and Lilibeu. Freeza and Cabbe eliminate themselves. Magetta, Saonel, Pirina, and Son Goku are eliminated by their own teammates (and Toppo and Dyspo are eliminated by the inaction of Jiren, though I credit Freeza with the K.O.). Android #17 is the only character not to be eliminated.
    • We see all of the characters appear at some point during the fighting once it has started (if only from a distance), except for Vikal of Universe 2, and Kyawei of Universe 4, as far as I can tell. Also, I think Viara and Narirama of Universe 3 are only shown appearing in the stands after elimination, from a distance. In Memoriam
    • Naturally, only Android #17 remains (*WINNER WINNER CHICKEN DINNER*).
  • It's tempting to indulge in some argument over who Universe 7's MVP is - Freeza, Android #17, and Son Goku seem like the most plausible candidates, given the essential part they each play in the final victory; to some extent, one has to forego metrics like those just listed (despite their attractiveness from a 'SportsBall' kind of perspective), as not providing the full story. Goku, in particular, doesn't actually eliminate anybody, in contrast to Freeza, who eliminates several himself, manipulates the elimination of an equal number by Frost, and inadvertently sparks off the elimination of plenty more by Kale - directly or indirectly, he's responsible to some extent for the elimination of almost half the competitors in the Tournament. I feel like Goku not eliminating anyone was a very deliberate decision, but also one that's perfectly true to his character - wasting time eliminating small fry isn't what Goku's about; his goal is to challenge the strongest. So it's not surprising his thoughts come back to this when Universe 11 is erased, saying he wanted to fight Jiren one-on-one. He set his sights on the thing that mattered most to him, and without his own personal development through the fight ('overcoming himself'), Jiren would never have been defeated, even with the use of teamwork or ploys.
  • Really, though, the main argument to be made is for the crucial importance of almost every member of the Universe 7 team in forging the path to victory, even if their principal contribution comes before the fighting begins:
    • Universe 7 wouldn't have won without Son Goku. Before the fight, he was personally responsible for selecting and recruiting the team, particularly Freeza. During the fight, he at least kept Jiren occupied for much of the earlier half, and his personal realisation of Ultra Instinct was, as I have said, the only thing capable of weakening Jiren to the extent that he could be defeated. Until that point, he was invincible and would have certainly won.
    • Universe 7 wouldn't have won without Kame-Sen'nin. Goku had been just futilely grinding himself down on Jiren without making any headway at all, and was on course for elimination without realising the nature of 'The Wall' he needed to overcome - it being not Jiren, but himself. Roshi re-orientating Goku toward the right understanding of True Strength, reminding him of his old teachings, and demonstrating their true effectiveness was a necessary condition of Goku attaining Ultra Instinct, and thus opening the way to victory.
    • Universe 7 wouldn't have won without Freeza. Apart from being the catalyst for the elimination of practically half the field, saving the team a great deal of stamina, he was directly responsible for isolating Jiren on Universe 11's team, he agreed the winning strategy with Android #17, and, of course, as part of this he got the crucial elimination of Jiren in the dying moments.
    • Universe 7 wouldn't have won without Android #17. He was, after all, the Winner of the whole thing, and the stratagem he cooked up with Freeza to defeat Jiren was the winning one.
    • Universe 7 wouldn't have won without Kuririn. While Beerus complained "You didn't even do anything" before getting eliminated, by that point Kuririn's most important work was done. After all, Android #17 had turned Goku down flat until he mentioned Kuririn would be there - Android #17 only participated in the Tournament out of a personal debt to Kuririn in helping him restore his own Humanity.
    • Universe 7 probably wouldn't have won without Vegeta. Apart from being the one to suggest the selection of Android #17, he kept Toppo neutralised throughout the battle, stepped in to occupy Jiren at an important point just after Jiren had laid out Goku, and saved Goku from elimination after Ultra Instinct failed. The teamwork stint with Goku kept Jiren tied down for a crucial little period of time (perhaps the most crucial), and no doubt eked out some more damage.
    • Universe 7 probably wouldn't have won without Son Gohan. When Kefla stepped on the scene, the only powers that might otherwise have challenged her in Universe 7 could have been Goku, Vegeta, and maybe Freeza. Taking any of those fighters out of the mix to take care of her would no doubt have exhausted them and left them unable to oppose Jiren and Toppo further down the line. Gohan's strength was key in neutralising this threat.
    • Universe 7 therefore probably wouldn't have won without Piccolo. Gohan regaining his fighting sense was crucial to being able to oppose Kefla, given that she had Caulifla's instinct for battle in her, and to the extent that Gohan was able to make his vital contribution to the effort, Piccolo takes a large share of the credit for preparing Gohan to meet the challenge.
    • ...But for Android #18 and Tenshinhan, I got nothing :lol: Erm... well, the team needed 10 members; they were there when they were needed. Sometimes, that's enough.
    Even though a case can't be made for literally everyone on the team having an essential part in Universe 7's victory, I think the story does more than enough to convincingly sell this as a true team victory. The win just couldn't have happened if Beerus had done what Belmod did for Universe 11 - just pick Goku and after that, anyone would do. The way the battle unfolds makes clear how vitally important it was that people closely involved with Goku's story were there to carry the day. It wouldn't have happened otherwise. On some level, I think the Tournament of Power comes closer to the Golden Shonen Jump motto ("Friendship, Effort, Victory") than any other Dragon Ball arc, though fortunately not in a straightforward or mawkish way - there are enough surprises and subversions to keep it characteristic of Dragon Ball.
  • I like that Android #18 knew all along that #17 was acting when doing the whole thing about 'look after my family, gonna self destruct now, kthnxbai'. Despite not being overly close to her brother, she knows enough about him (and the situation) to know he was lying. I also like the fact that #17 insisting that they come babysit his kids from time to time anyway is the first thing to get an emotional response from her since she got knocked out by Gamisaras.
  • #17 demands the return of the Universes. I feel like the plot misses an opportunity here a bit, as the Zenos were adamant that the Universes weren't developing and that They should get rid of a few. This seems to be forgotten in favour of pushing the reset button for the status quo. I'd've liked the pair to object to #17's wish as such, and for it to be reformulated as restoring the other Universes as part of Universe 7. It would've restored a lot of the historic damage to 'our' Universe (Freeza, Buu, and as we will see, Moro), and give a full new roster of Kaioshin for the Universe (under a bemused, 'imposter syndrome-y' Shin). However, I do like #17's reasoning for his wish - namely, just to spite the Zenos so they don't get their own way. It's in keeping with his background as a notorious delinquent, and so perfectly in character to simply want to stick it to The Man - who could that apply to more than The King(s) of Everything?
  • I like that the wish, despite its less-than-virtuous intent, still raises Universe 7 in the Mortal Rankings. But I also like the fact that it doesn't do so by much - it's now only third from last. Presumably it's just managed to leapfrog its twin, Universe 6, in the rankings. Next to surpass would be Universe 4. I like the minor nature of the change because since the wish just re-sets things to how they were, it hasn't really fixed much about Universe 7 - like The Grand Priest will say in 超 #54, "Universe 7 is certainly a restless one"; that's how it will be going forward, because that's where the adventure is. Like I said above, I'd've preferred a positive change that would give the series a 'bigger sandbox' to play in, but failing that, there's something to be said for incremental progress, even when one has a magical wish-granting dragon at one's command.
  • It's worth noting that if Whis hadn't stepped in and revived Freeza himself, Goku wouldn't have been able to make good on his promise by using Earth's Dragon Balls, since they were used to revive Freeza in (the appropriately-titled) Revival of F, and as DB #201 established, Shenron never grants the same wish twice. So this was pretty convenient, all things considered.
  • Aaaand we get a final gag to end the arc, with Bulma the Piggy Bank having to fork out a cruiser for #17, as Vegeta's pledged him one. I wonder if it'll be the 'Princess Buluma' from 超 #3?
  • It's a little weird to summarise things in the middle of the Chapter, but the arc has ended here, so here it is. I feel that ultimately, I have to side with The Undying in saying this is, for me, the best arc of Dragon Ball Super so far. I think it's well structured, maintains a strong adherence to its key themes of True Strength and Teamwork and uses them as real storytelling strengths, interconnects and balances the use of its principal characters (both protagonists and antagonists) in an effective manner to drive the plot, and produces a generally very satisfying storyline.
    With the exception of the slightly aimless 超 #36 (and even that serves some purpose), the plotting of the arc is pretty tight from beginning to end - there's a good setting up of the problem, with plenty of fun diversion and action mixed in (such as the Gods of Destruction Exhibition Match, and Goku's fight with Toppo); a skilful blend of 'slice of life' with some leavening action in the recruitment phase of the arc, and a fresh, character-driven approach to battling pretty much from that point on. I don't think any phase of the arc truly overstays its welcome before introducing some new element that shakes things up (if anything, a couple of elements may be slightly attenuated and could've done with at least a few more pages), and I think each chapter has generally surprised me with how natural the 'feel' is for a lot of what occurs in the Tournament, in the sense that the characters mostly seem to act in a way that fits their tendencies, while doing so drives the plot along. To take Freeza: he manipulates his counterpart with a shared resentment (超 #33), uses his teammates as pawns to undo a tricky Universe without any effort (超 #34), instinctively torments the Saiyans of Universe 6 since he can't do it with his own, inadvertently creates yet another Super Saiyan (超 #37), lies low and lets other people fight until he can pick off a couple of weakened enemies, which he enjoys hugely (超 #40), and then he lies low again until the opportune moment, so he can realise his own goal of getting resurrected - and it can't hurt that he eliminates Son Goku in the process (超 #42). All character-driven and enjoyable. As I've said before, Freeza is hardly the only example (though he may be the most enjoyable).
    I also enjoy the use of the antagonists. Despite the fact he doesn't say much, and stands aloof and about as non-participatory as possible until obliged to do otherwise, I find Jiren oddly compelling as a character - I find his disdain for his allies and resolution to take things on himself somehow very relatable (I have issues, I guess), and I find the subtext relating to the wish, and his fixation on it bringing about his own downfall, to be compelling and (if intended) a skilfully deployed turning point in the plot. For other antagonists, I like the diversion that the Universe 6 trio provides, between the polite, straight-laced Cabbe, the quiet, unassuming but ferociously powerful (and then unhinged) Kale, and the cocky, brash (but ultimately caring) Caulifla. I enjoy the dynamic, though it doesn't overstay its welcome, and I think their desperate attempts to save Kale in 超 #38 stand among the most suspenseful moments of the arc, surpassed only by 超 #41-42.
    Given this, I'm a little bit puzzled at how zealous and unrelenting some of the criticism is when it comes to this arc - while some of it is a complaint against "Tournaments" in lieu of 'proper' story arcs (frankly, an absurd double standard, given that Dragon Ball was content to give us the 21st Budokai, Baba's challenge, 22nd Budokai, 23rd Budokai, Cell Game, and 25th Budokai - not a breath of objection there, apparently, which makes you wonder what such complainants think they've been reading all this time), most of it seems to centre around whether or not 'x' character gets good enough 'treatment' or a 'moment' to themselves, and on this point, the discussion seems to be very much led by what the Anime chose to do. To be honest, I'm not in the least bit interested in that, or in the opinions it engenders in the fandom, because it seems like something that doesn't assess the manga for what it actually is, and so it's not a discussion from which it can possibly emerge favourably (or even fairly appraised) because said discussion is led by those assumptions. To phrase it as succinctly as I can, however - the manga generally makes smart choices in blending the overall needs of the plot with its character work, and comes up with an economical and highly enjoyable presentation of these (occasionally competing) needs.
    I think the art hits its nadir in 超 #35, with several wonky pieces, but overall I think the standard of the art in this arc is generally very good. There are a lot of stand-out pieces, but I think the overall standard is somewhat better than the Future Trunks arc was - in particular, the two climactic chapters (or one-and-a-half, I suppose I should say) are of a very high general quality. Toyotarou still has some way to go to approach Toriyama, artistically speaking, but it's worth reflecting on how far he's come in developing his own style. By the end of this arc, he's drawn the equivalent of around 100 Chapters of manga (reckoning by page count of the weekly manga format), and I think it shows.
    Does everything about the arc land well? Not quite. In particular, I do feel like a set-piece fight of some significance, prior to the climactic battle of Goku vs. Jiren, would have been beneficial - and the manga gives a nod to this sentiment with Kefla vs. Gohan, but it doesn't follow through. At times, I do feel like the relentlessness of the push to force more events through the arc, even when some of it is inconsequential (Hi, 超 #36!) or perhaps piecemeal and indecisive (See: Vegeta's fight with Toppo) doesn't always serve the impact value of the arc as well as it might, either. Having said that, this isn't a deal-breaking drawback in an arc that ends up having a lot to do, and which generally does it very well indeed.
    To decide a favourite arc so far, it's between the Universe 6 Tournament arc and this one, as I think is probably the case for many fans of the manga, and while I appreciate the confident playfulness of the Universe 6 Tournament arc for what it is, the Tournament of Power arc is, as I've said, a good deal richer, somehow. It does more with its characters, it wields its themes strongly and confidently, and while I'm sure a great deal of what I've commented on in previous instalments is perhaps my own imagination (or might perhaps be more charitably be described as 'subtext'), I feel like the arc simply gives much more fuel for making these sorts of connections rewardingly. That's partly because there's a lot more of it, and partly perhaps a matter of tone, but when it comes to assessing what I like better, I have to say this arc takes it.
Well, I think that's a good stopping point, for the moment. It's a little weird and in bad form to stop right in the middle of a Chapter like this, but I promise I'll finish it in due course.

After a brief pause. My own contributions to the Super Re-Read now amount to over 120 pages and 80,000 words, so I'm pausing for a breather before launching into the Moro arc - it'll come very early in the New Year. Or, if all goes well, there may be an update for Christmas Day (think of it as a special gift). 'Till then, keep on re-reading!

K, it's your turn - what did y'all get from your re-read?

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by Cipher » Tue Dec 22, 2020 11:52 am

Chapter 41 remains, to this point, my favorite in Dragon Ball Super, as I've alluded to a few times in the thread. Although it could be argued that the series' most visually spectacular action lies elsewhere, this chapter winds up being the total package for me in terms of pacing--both on the macro-level and panel to panel during Goku and Jiren's fight--and offering a vertical slice of the series' strengths in terms of both action and characterization. I honestly think it's worth just moving through it bit by bit:

The title page sets the stage for the battle moving into its climactic phase, as Kuririn notes that Jiren is displaying a visible aura for the first time--which also speaks to how towering Jiren is as an opponent, having not yet demonstrated what we've come to hold as the visual shorthand for characters expending the bare minimum of effort. The presentation of movement and the sense of timing connected to it has possibly not been stronger in Super than it is in the chapter's early pages of Ultra Instinct Sign Goku vs. Jiren, from Goku's almost halting saunter into a diving lunge to begin the bout, to his weave under Jiren's punch, to taking a blow to the face just one panel after we see his fist centimeters from Jiren's. (Consequently, we understand the speed with which Jiren is moving, and the impact of his blow comes across.)The following pages achieve a sense of a camera rotating, accelerating, and stopping with each blow Goku takes from Jiren. See, for example, the panels on the lower half of the fifth page of the chapter, where the combination of reversing angles, speedlines in the impact panel, and hovering debris in the aftermath as the two characters have split apart convey the above sense of "camera" work and speeding up and slowing down of time.

The craft here is blink-and-you'll miss it, but I think this is among Super's most animated fights, if not its single most. If it seems strange to be discussing things like being "animated," or a sense of speed in the static medium of comics, you're just going to have to bear with. Incidentally, the feeling I refer to as a quality of being "animated" is completely separate from, and even counter to, the idea of being laid out like an anime storyboard, as Toyotaro's paneling is sometimes (I think fairly at times) criticized for. Here, he's keeping most of those sensibilities at bay. The sense of timing in this fight is very comic-specific stuff--achieved through angles, moments shown and not shown, panel size, presence and absence of speedlines, etc.--but the effect is still one of "animation," in that you can intuit how things are moving and with what timing. It's an effect all over Toriyama's Dragon Ball work, but which Super rarely achieves on the same level. While not as explosive as the climax to the following arc, this is, I think, the best it's ever been on that front.

There's more effective communication of timing and movement to be seen, this time in the space of a single panel, as Goku dodges Jiren's kiais, with Toyotaro showing both "multiple" Goku's dodging two firings in a single frame, and an aerial shot of the arena to show the impact of the blasts he's avoiding. Jiren powering up in anger after Goku's line about his heart being still feels appropriately explosive as the ground chips away beneath him, even if it isn't the largest scale Dragon Ball has ever employed for such a scene. The contrast of this moment with Goku calmly inhaling before the transition into "proper" Ultra Instinct, to be revealed a few pages later, is also a smart bit of pacing.

I'm not the biggest fan of Goku's gut punch on Jiren, especially with its borrowed composition from the Piccolo Daimao fight, but it works well enough.

What follows is more admirable timing, as Toyotaro's sometimes frantic employment of speedlines, which can occasionally crowd pages, is put to use to create a real sense of speed and impact as Jiren launches himself up to the debris hovering above the arena. We can feel Goku steadily getting the hang of his new technique as he blocks Jiren's flurry for one page before finding an opening to catch him with a twisting kick on the next, and Jiren pinballing through the debris and landing with a thud in the background is delivered with almost comical timing, communicating how overwhelmed he now is, and just being a bit of fun on its own. Jiren's following blast feels huge, and it being the move used to cover Goku's movement into the stage-piercing Kamehameha is a clever way to develop the fight.

The pacing from the start to the gigantic Kamehameha panel itself (a pretty visually striking beat, and one that manages to find something new to do with a Kamehameha in modern Dragon Ball) is near perfect. No moment overstays its welcome, and each bit of the fight feels like it serves a purpose, while being enjoyable and impactful on its own.

Jiren's "aren't true strength" line from the middle of the Kamehameha-carved tunnel is an encapsulating quote for his character. Now that Goku has challenged what Jiren's idea of said true strength is (after having struggled with it himself), the cracks are beginning to show. Jiren is somewhat unassuming about his superiority so long as the very idea of what he believes strength to be isn't in question itself. Of course ultimately the "true strength" the arc throws its hat in for isn't Goku's martial arts evolution either, and the fact that we get that payoff this chapter as well is another feather in its cap.

Jiren powers up once again to put Goku back on the back foot, and Whis remarks that Goku's automatic reactions may conversely becoming a burden faced with an opponent of Jiren's speed and strength. Jiren standing his ground against Goku's (deliciously twisty, slightly unnatural feeling, in a way that sells UI's movement) kick, then catching it and throwing him, provides visual evidence to accompany Whis' speculation--the fight is no lock for Goku. Ultra Instinct isn't invisible or infallible, which is nice to know both for the progression of the story from this arc, and in terms of the culmination of its themes.

Beerus and Whis make clear that the battle is going to come down to a battle of attrition--the characters locked in a stalemate until either Goku's Ultra Instinct or Jiren's stamina give out, and in the fight's last generous bit of pacing, the stakes now established, we shift into invisible impacts representing the two flying around the arena to montage out the rest of the bout. The large bottom panel of Whis, able to follow the two's movement, offering a single "Oh dear" just before we see Goku and Jiren snap back into focus, the former having been knocked out of UI, is a fantastic punctuating moment for this particular kind of intentional anti-climax.

That's just the first half of the chapter. I don't think there's a more smartly timed fight in Super.

The back half of the chapter gives us several delightful character beats, including Jiren's backstory, which pulls through on several of the arc's existing themes in ways already well-covered by this thread. This back half may include Vegeta at his most likable in Super as well, from his friendly berating of Goku for losing with the supposedly invisible UI, to prodding at Jiren for his childish yearning for his master's approval, to instigating the team attack attack against Jiren and once again calling to continue their charge at the end. (Incidentally, I've always thought the thick line work in that panel looked spectacular, and wonder if there might not be some Toriyama touch-ups in the faces.)

Beerus' frustration with Goku and Vegeta having not teamed up from the start, since it's going so well for them now, and the other gods' confusion over the same, pulls through on his ignored calls for teamwork at the beginning of the arc. The revelation of Whis having surreptitiously instilled effective combination fighting in them through his training (which they saw as competition against Whis rather than as tutelage in working with each other) is fun fluff. Vermoud's bitter acknowledgement that Gitchen's emphasis on teamwork may have been correct leading to a transition from the word "teamwork" in dialogue to Goku and Vegeta simultaneously socking Jiren in the nose is a final gift of timing just after the chapter seemed done giving them. (On that note, I quite like how human and sympathetic Vermoud remains for someone the arc paints as being in the wrong, as he continues to believe in Jiren's chances for success next chapter, maintaining faith in his fighter even as he begins to concede that Gitchen may have been right.)

The fact that Ultra Instinct is--not quite a fake-out, as Goku's journey to obtaining it is still an essential part of Universe 7's victory--but a red herring in terms of being the arc's sole savior, as one might expect in DB, is satisfying, and something that helps allow the arc to convey its support for notions of teamwork (and general coming together) without seeming overbearing or preachy. Getting to that message is filled is filled with twists and play on conventions, reliance on somewhat morally unsavory characters, and bits of humor that keep it feeling in DB's usual form. It is satisfyingly thematically coherent, instead of gratingly so.

That's it, I suppose. I don't think I have anything to add on Chapter 42, but I did want to call attention to the success on a craft and pacing level that is Chapter 41.

Again, this is an arc I only like more the more I reread or think about it.
Cipher has characterised it elsewhere as something of a gag that Jiren thought he needed to get stronger, and so went and got so much stronger, which I respect as a 'take', but I don't know whether 'gags' really fit with Jiren.
I don't mean to characterize the revelation as a bit of broad comedy, or anything like that. Certainly not in a way that speaks above or trivializes Jiren's character. I simply see an element of comedy to it while remaining completely sincere to its characters, which is one of DB's (in my mind) appeals. The strongerest guy ever (to emphasize the almost comic hyperbole with which Jiren's strength is presented, though that too is to the effect of communicating his role rather than undercutting him) became who he is because he simply willed and trained himself into becoming it, and he willed and trained himself into doing so because he, essentially, was under a mistaken impression. Comedy, sincerity and tension are often intertwined so tightly in DB that you can't tell where one ends and the other begins, and I see Jiren as a character through which all three of those strands run.
After a brief pause. My own contributions to the Super Re-Read now amount to over 120 pages and 80,000 words, so I'm pausing for a breather before launching into the Moro arc - it'll come very early in the New Year. Or, if all goes well, there may be an update for Christmas Day (think of it as a special gift).
Take a break! You've earned it!

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by batistabus » Tue Dec 22, 2020 12:52 pm

Happy holidays to you Magnificent Ponta, and everyone else here!

In the spirt of the re-read, the Kanzenshuu Twitter teased a podcast review of the Galactic Patrol Prisoner arc. I assume Cipher will be on it, among others, and I'm forward to it!

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by The Undying » Tue Dec 22, 2020 1:49 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 4:02 pm It's tempting to indulge in some argument over who Universe 7's MVP is - Freeza, Android #17, and Son Goku seem like the most plausible candidates, given the essential part they each play in the final victory;
Tempting as it may be, I like that this chapter essentially throws all MVP talk to the wayside by emphasizing Jiren's weaknesses as the actual reason for his loss.

I also like how true it is to Goku, Freeza, and 17 as characters. Goku only has eyes for Jiren from start to finish, but trusts his allies in dire situations. Freeza has been scheming and blindsiding opponents throughout the tournament, and fittingly ends the tournament with a sneak attack. 17's hide-and-seek strategy speaks to his pragmatism and general nonchalant attitude.

I've read some complaints in the past that Toyotaro doesn't "care about" the androids or something because he didn't give them a ton of screentime. I still find it ridiculous. Outside of the original run itself, I'd say the manga has characterized 17, 18, and their relationship better than anything else in the franchise.
Magnificent Ponta wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 4:02 pm I think it's well structured, maintains a strong adherence to its key themes of True Strength and Teamwork and uses them as real storytelling strengths, interconnects and balances the use of its principal characters (both protagonists and antagonists) in an effective manner to drive the plot, and produces a generally very satisfying storyline.
All well said, but I would add that it makes clear who those principal characters are from the start. Right from the exhibition/recruitment phase, the manga doesn't shy away from informing the reader that this arc is primarily about Universe 7, with characters from Universe 6 and Universe 11 playing key roles. It's not trying to be One Piece. Toyotaro isn't throwing a million characters at the dartboard and hoping something sticks, he's focusing on a core cast and balancing that cast with the story's underlying theme.

If people are willing to read it on its own terms (especially those who felt disappointed after finishing the anime) I think they'd be surprised about the number of ways in which the characters and setting are committed to that theme. Even 36, although it feels slightly aimless on the surface, as you've noted, convincingly lays out what kind of obstacle the protagonists are dealing with through its briskly paced, exceedingly chaotic battle royale backdrop; ultimately making a case for the necessity of teamwork in a series that would otherwise eschew it in the traditional sense. Occasionally, there's something that could use more time in the oven (chiefly Gohan vs. Kefla, but also a few other bumps in the road) but the Universe Survival arc generally knows exactly what story it wants to tell, and builds all of those individual components - be it pacing, plot structure, characterization, or focus - around its core premise and message.

Moreover, as Cipher mentioned, it manages to deliver all of this in a non-preachy, very Dragon Ball kind of way. As long as folks aren't clouded by misconceptions of what the material "should" or "shouldn't" be striving for prior to even reading the arc, or aren't attached to specific supporting characters in misguided ways, they'll find something really special here. That would require an appreciation for judging the story on its own merits, though, and I'm frankly not sure the majority of the DB community is invested in this stuff.

Unlike most of Super's arcs, it's the kind of story you can get more out of the more you revisit it. Some would credit that to its plot being character-driven, but I'd say it's more accurately a character-driven adherence to its deeper thematic elements. This isn't lost on Toyotaro, as we'll see in certain parts of the next arc, and remains the biggest reason I'm still (cautiously, mind you) optimistic for the Super manga's future. Say what you will about the man's art, but his writing gleams with potential. Combine that with his understanding of DB's tone, and I don't think it's hard to see why he's Toriyama's chosen successor.
Cipher wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 11:52 am *snip*
Excellent analysis of the action in Chapter 41. It's actually something I didn't fully appreciate until coming back to the arc a few months after this chapter was published; the paneling and unnatural sense of movement/speed really does make Ultra Instinct feel completely unlike any of Goku's other forms.

Art-wise, Super is at its best when it takes advantage of the medium's strengths like this. A lot of people might not like Toyotaro's stylistic quirks, but I feel that's ultimately less important.
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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:31 pm

Cipher wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 11:52 amComedy, sincerity and tension are often intertwined so tightly in DB that you can't tell where one ends and the other begins, and I see Jiren as a character through which all three of those strands run.
Thanks for this; that's a very interesting counterpoint.

I guess I haven't really thought all that much about how Dragon Ball wields its comedy elements (mostly my mind tends to run to the more 'broad' gag-manga offerings of its early days), so that's given me something to think about.
The Undying wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 1:49 pmSome would credit that to its plot being character-driven, but I'd say it's more accurately a character-driven adherence to its deeper thematic elements.
This is an interesting distinction. What would you say is the most important element of difference between those two conclusions? Getting ahead of myself and turning my mind towards the Moro arc for a moment, I feel like the characters still adhere to the themes laid down by the arc (and not in a way that leads them to break character or anything like that), but sometimes I feel the themes themselves drive the actions of characters and the broader scenario rather than the reverse, so it's interesting to look at what the Tournament of Power might be doing differently (or perhaps more effectively) with characters and theme-work. How do you see it?

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by TobyS » Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:39 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:31 pm
Cipher wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 11:52 amComedy, sincerity and tension are often intertwined so tightly in DB that you can't tell where one ends and the other begins, and I see Jiren as a character through which all three of those strands run.
Thanks for this; that's a very interesting counterpoint.

I guess I haven't really thought all that much about how Dragon Ball wields its comedy elements (mostly my mind tends to run to the more 'broad' gag-manga offerings of its early days), so that's given me something to think about.
The Undying wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 1:49 pmSome would credit that to its plot being character-driven, but I'd say it's more accurately a character-driven adherence to its deeper thematic elements.
This is an interesting distinction. What would you say is the most important element of difference between those two conclusions? Getting ahead of myself and turning my mind towards the Moro arc for a moment, I feel like the characters still adhere to the themes laid down by the arc (and not in a way that leads them to break character or anything like that), but sometimes I feel the themes themselves drive the actions of characters and the broader scenario rather than the reverse, so it's interesting to look at what the Tournament of Power might be doing differently (or perhaps more effectively) with characters and theme-work. How do you see it?
Would you consider a Dragonball Heroes Manga re-read alongside this seeing as you've sort of "caught up" now to all but the moro arc.
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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by The Undying » Wed Dec 23, 2020 1:46 am

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:31 pm This is an interesting distinction. What would you say is the most important element of difference between those two conclusions? Getting ahead of myself and turning my mind towards the Moro arc for a moment, I feel like the characters still adhere to the themes laid down by the arc (and not in a way that leads them to break character or anything like that), but sometimes I feel the themes themselves drive the actions of characters and the broader scenario rather than the reverse, so it's interesting to look at what the Tournament of Power might be doing differently (or perhaps more effectively) with characters and theme-work. How do you see it?
Good point! I don't know if I'd say the GPP arc's themes drive the characters per se (though I'd love to read your take on all of this when you get to it), but I certainly believe there's a distinction between the two arcs in how in-depth either story is willing to go. Moro and his dastardly band of space cut-throats like to steal things, with Moro specifically stealing external power, but there's really not much more to his character aside from the fact that he ends up paying unexpected consequences for it later, as opposed to Goku "earning" his right to use the same ability unimpeded. Maybe all that thievery he and the prisoners committed is what he meant by his "ideal universe"... which is a little shallow. While I don't think he necessarily had to be deep, there's just not much to his contributions in that regard. He has a slight trichotomy with Goku and Vegeta, but it's not an especially interesting dynamic.

In contrast, Jiren seems like a cardboard antagonist on the surface, but turns out to be one of Super's more layered characters. Every one of his personal attributes thematically leads back to his insecurities regarding Gicchin and inability to be a team player. Similarly, canon!Broly's character revolves around Paragus being an abusive father and his ironic motives, and mostly everything that occurs in the film conveys its broader theme of parental influences. Both Jiren and Broly serve as neat foils for Goku, albeit in different ways.

So maybe I'd say the Universe Survival arc does it differently in the sense that its main themes are more driven by its characters than the Galactic Patrol Prisoner arc's. That's not to say that the latter doesn't do the same thing at times, but it does so with less depth and frequency than the former.

Edit: Deleted/reposted this since I went past the edit window. The relentless "buts" in every sentence of my first paragraph were killing me when I noticed them. :lol:
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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Wed Dec 23, 2020 2:44 pm

TobyS wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:39 pmWould you consider a Dragonball Heroes Manga re-read alongside this seeing as you've sort of "caught up" now to all but the moro arc.
Interesting question - I take it you mean Dragon Ball Heroes: Victory Mission (rather than Super Dragon Ball Heroes)? That might be a little difficult, as technically to do a 're-read' I'd've needed to read it a first time :lol: Still, if I found it somewhere, I guess I wouldn't mind giving it a go.

But I probably should give some more thought to what (if anything) I might write about when I have to go into hiatus on the Super Re-Read at the end of the Moro arc (I strongly doubt the Granolah arc will have finished by then) - thinking about it, I guess I could re-read the 'Galactic Patrol canon' (Sachie-Chan GOOD!!/Jiya/Jaco the Galactic Patrolman), if anyone's interested in that?

Happy to take any suggestions, naturally.

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by TobyS » Wed Dec 23, 2020 7:10 pm

I actually meant super Dragonball heroes, it's like a real super/z era continuation side story but it is weird predating the super revival and being an inherently cynical advert commercial product..
But the manga version is more standalone then the anime and it's interesting to contrast it to the real super manga.

Idk.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Fri Dec 25, 2020 7:33 am

The Super Re-Read: Broly

Image

Sometimes I worry that I am indeed a Sonuvagun...the feeling passes, though.

So, yes, welcome back to The Super Re-Read - I took a brief pause partway through Chapter 42 last time - but I mentioned the possibility of an update on Christmas Day as a 'special gift' and yes, this is it. Only it's more of a gift to myself, I suppose. Happy Freeza Day, everyone! ;)

Dragon Ball Super: Broly was the first Dragon Ball film to bear the 'Super' moniker, and has so far been rather more successful than either Battle of Gods or Revival of F in staying out of the manga. But we're gonna have a look at it anyway. And there's more than you'd think, as the first third of the movie draws directly from Dragon Ball Minus, a Bonus Chapter for the Toriyama-penned series Jaco the Galactic Patrolman. So basically, this Re-Read is a Re-Read of DBminus, a page of Chapter 42, a Bonus Chapter (#5, I guess?) from Dragon Ball Super, and a few other disparate materials. Aaaand then we'll move on to the Moro arc.

As ever, thanks and credit to Kanzenshuu and its staff members and contributors for their wealth of information and resources. Let's get into it...

Dragon Ball Minus: Castaway Child of Destiny/The Departure of the Fated Child
04 April 2014
Chapter Notes
  • A number of fans tend to hate DBminus on the basis that this depiction apparently fundamentally changes what Saiyans have been established to "be like" in the original series. I wonder about this, as our principal source for Saiyan tendencies and culture has come from Vegeta and his close companions so far. Not that I would disregard his testimony, but on a number of attitudes and values, Vegeta seems to stand apart from his companions to some degree, so it's worth keeping an open mind as to the spectrum of likely Saiyan values when compared with what we see in DBminus. I'll look a little closer at this question a bit further on.
  • It's interesting to note that Toriyama filled out much of the background to Bardock and his actions and relationships in particular before this manga chapter was published (the linked interview was published on 4 February 2014, 2 months before DBminus). In fact, I find it interesting to see a published work of Toriyama's that had additional information given contemporaneously with the work (unlike, say, with the Daizenshuu), which feels like a really unusual thing in Dragon Ball generally. While he'd no doubt have finished the Jaco manga before giving the interview with this extra info, it's interesting to see that Toriyama thought about stuff that wasn't going to actually be in the comic in advance and in detail, instead of just making it up afterwards, which is the impression he has generally tended to give in the past.
  • Whatever else may be the case, Bardock's clearly having a blast kicking some alien's face in when we first see him. This, and the narrator's description of why they're there, is perfectly in keeping with Raditz's explanation as to what the Saiyans do, in DB #200: "We are a warrior race...and an entrepreneurial one! We locate hospitable planets and sell them to other races looking for living space. But, to make those worlds suitable to their future residents, first we must exterminate the native inhabitants!" This is done at the behest of Freeza, whom Toriyama says was modelled on the idea of a "land shark", or real estate speculator, and that the whole racket operated quite loosely here with Freeza in a 'Godfather'-type role. The arrangement seems tidy and convenient - the Saiyans earn their keep doing what they love (and what they have done since time immemorial , and Freeza gets planets out of it, which can be owned or sold as desired. According to his numbering system, Freeza must have at least 79 planets in the original manga (as per DB #246 - Freeza Planet No. 79 is the only planetary possession of Freeza's shown in the original manga; 超 #4 also gives us a look at Freeza Planet No. 17), and Toriyama has stated that Freeza probably owned "several hundreds" of planets.
  • Bardock's companion here is apparently named Leek/Leke/Riku, though he isn't named in DBminus. Toyotarou did a Toyotarou Drew it!! based on this scene, speculating that at some point in the extermination of this planet, Bardock may have found occasion to transform into an Oozaru - Leek lies unconscious at his feet. Unsurprisingly, all of Bardock's closer connections per se are with his fellow combatants, forming squads with them. In the original special, A Final, Solitary Battle, Bardock was exclusively related to his fellow squad members - Toma, Selypa, Pumbukin, and Totapo. Toyotarou found a notional place for them in this altered backstory in a 'Toyotarou drew it!', where they are deliberately kept in the dark about the order and killed by Dodoria, with the resulting loss of contact fuelling Bardock's suspicions about Freeza's intentions. His mate, Gine, was likewise a member of Bardock's team, though she was unsuited for combat. An interesting note is that Gine and Bardock were part of a 4-combatant team. Likewise, his crew here consitute a team of 4 on their own, and Raditz approaches Son Goku with the aim of creating a team of 4 Saiyans to eliminate a formidable population, in DB #197. So teams of 4 seem perhaps significant in some way. However, as we see in DBminus as well, partnering is also strongly in evidence and assumed - Bardock is partnered with Leek here, and Raditz is partnered with Vegeta, so perhaps larger squads are made up of more fundamental partnerships - though Toriyama has also said that Raditz was already on Nappa's squad before Vegeta was added to it.
  • The ship used by Bardock and Leek is the first we've seen of this design - Saiyans have hitherto been shown travelling in single-seater space pods ("cramped, but easy on the body"); Yo! Son Goku and Friends Return! sported a double-seater variant of the space pod, with an overlapping double-window. This design, however, obviously takes inspiration from the look of Freeza's ship, and so is no doubt provided by the Freeza force, just like their Scouters and Battle Jackets (and beam guns?).
  • Speaking of Scouters, we get a note that Freeza's men would be able to hear Leek's insult - its function as a transceiver was established in DB #204, when Piccolo's statement about the Dragon Balls was transmitted to Vegeta and Nappa; this feature again showed up in DB #246, where Freeza learned from Vegeta that Planet Namek has Dragon Balls (we see it in action in DB #248, as Kiwi and Vegeta hold a long-distance conversation via Scouter, and in DB #252, when Vegeta listens to Freeza's conversation with Muri). Toriyama has stated that the Scouters are an invention of the Tsufuru-jin/Tsufruians, the original inhabitants of Planet Vegeta, but that functions like telecommunications were added by Freeza's engineers (variously credited to 'Gichamu', as there, or else Kikono). Dragon Ball Super: Broly has revised this statement somewhat, with Scouters replacing older, hand-held Scopes used by the Saiyans. All this information isn't necessarily completely contradictory - the Tsufruians could have been the inventors of the Scopes, of which the Scouters could be a heavily modified version with better and more diverse functionality.
  • As the pair approach, we get our first good view of the Planet Vegeta. It was seen from its upper atmosphere in DB #307, in Freeza's memory of Bardock - the colour version of the manga indicates its natural colour is red. Here, we see it has at least 2 satellites (moons), which potentially has implications for provoking an Oozaru transformation among the population. However, it's possible that these satellites might only rarely show a full moon phase. Vegeta, who seems to know an oddly significant amount about the 'science' behind the whole thing, points out that the 17,000,000 Zeno-per-second radation required to trigger transformation can never be generated without a Full Moon (DB #232).
  • The spacecraft lands in a sort of depot on the planet surface, and we see the underside of the craft, which displays the "floater" such craft are shown to have in Dragon Ball Super: Broly (the key to their flight and power capabilities). I find incidental logistical detail like this to be interesting - as the Saiyans are a spacefaring scourge, it seems important that their warmaking abilities should have an extensive logistical underpinning. We see these two-seater ships and space pods lined up for use, and some sort of wheeled buggy (for resupply?) in amongst them. The flight controller who greets Bardock carries some sort of ledger, which may be indicative of the bureaucracy needed to manage depots like this (and would indicate that Saiyans have their own systems of literacy and numeracy), and their various comings and goings. We also see other elements of the supply chain that supports Saiyan activity when Bardock meets up with Gine - being unsuited as a combatant, she is assigned to the meat distribution centre on Planet Vegeta. Other Saiyans unsuited to combat have been mentioned before, such as Tarble, Vegeta's brother from Yo! Son Goku and Friends Return! The Broly movie will mention him and show us other non-combatant Saiyans who play support roles in planetary conquest, such as Beets.
  • I find the topography of Planet Vegeta to be interesting - there's a preponderance of 'Mushroom Rocks'/'Rock Pedestals' in view both in the landing scene and the night time scene where Kakarot is sent away. This could be indicative of wind erosion at low levels in sandy conditions; as we know from DB #211, the planet's gravity is at least 10 times that of Earth's, which would likely keep the sand low to the ground when moved by wind, which might account for the extent to which this formation appears.
  • We get reference to the Legendary Super Saiyan and the Super Saiyan God as subjects of Freeza's interest. As mentioned before, Freeza's motivations for eradicating the Saiyans have been various, and include the rise in power of a number of Saiyans (DB #257), a potential union of Saiyans against him (DB #257 and #262), and here, of course, the premonition of the rise of a powerful Saiyan, even a Super Saiyan (originally mentioned in DB #262). This adds the Super Saiyan God to this motivation, presumably as just a throwaway reference to Battle of Gods, and 超 #2 will add that Beerus also requested it of him, no doubt due to the uncontrolled actions of the Saiyans, as shown in 超 #3, where he threatens King Vegeta III personally. Even so, it's always the possible emergence Super Saiyan as such that remains Freeza's principal motivation for this course of action. It's also worth noting that he throws in that the Saiyans are "a bit too proud to be truly loyal to me", and Vegeta makes comments a couple of times that indicate general Saiyan resentment at their subservience (e.g., "No self-respecting Saiyan can stomach being ordered around by the likes of that", in DB #262, or "We Saiyans...did just as he commanded...we were his hands...his muscles", which Goku interprets as hating "the fact that he used you! You were heartless...but you had the pride of a Saiyan...", in DB #308). Toriyama has since united the concepts of Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan God, in terms of the legend, at least, by means of the story of the righteous Saiyan Yamoshi.
  • We get our first sight of Kikono in the manga, and also a couple of random Freeza Force goons in the background. Various people have commented on the passing resemblance to Avo and Cado from Yo! Son Goku and Friends Return!, albeit that both have two horns here and Avo has only one - perhaps this is only Cado and a colleague of the same species, or two similar-looking aliens. Vegeta remembers the pair as being on-par with the Ginyu Force (so, with Battle Powers probably around 40,000 or so). Kikono mentions that the Saiyans make good combatants here, though Toriyama has noted that with the exception of King Vegeta III and Prince Vegeta, who are the only true elite warriors around, only around 10 Saiyans are even mid-level warriors, so one might suppose that the majority of Saiyan combatants have Battle Powers of 1000 or less (which, in fairness, is still pretty mighty by most standards). In Dragon Ball Super: Broly, Kikono notes that the Saiyans make up approximately half of the combatants Freeza has at his disposal.
  • We get a cute shot of Vegeta and Raditz ignoring the summons to return, while they're busy destroying some other planet. Like the first time we see him in the original Manga, Vegeta's eating a meal in close proximity to an indigenous corpse. Of course, in DB #204, the indigenous corpse was the meal - Toyotarou has likewise given us a "Toyotarou Drew It!!" in which it appears Bardock is doing much the same. As Toriyama has noted, Saiyans can eat just about anything edible, though children aren't quite so robust. Perhaps that's why Vegeta's just eating a fruit on this occasion. Son Goku, at the age of 12, starts out by catching giant fish in DB #1, and follows it up by roasting a Wolf and a Centipede in DB #2, eschewing bread and coffee. Son Gohan, at age 5, eventually develops a taste for berries and dinosaur tails when left to fend for himself over 6 months (in DB #209).
  • The partnership between the pair is indicative of Raditz's status. Toriyama has mentioned that Raditz and Nappa have equal status, in spite of the disdain with which Vegeta and Nappa treat Raditz, calling him a "pitiful guy" and a "weakling" - to them, I suppose, he is, but it seems that according to Saiyan social stratification, he is not. Nappa has called himself an "elite warrior" in contradistinction to Goku, a "lower-class punk", in DB #225, so this would mean that Raditz is, in Saiyan terms, also an "elite/upper-level" warrior (despite the earlier caveat that only the Vegetas are true elites, which I interpret as referring to the broader context). That Raditz is functioning as a full combatant when a child underscores his status - Vegeta mentions that Saiyan power is assessed at birth and determines their status in DB #228 (explaining why Goku was sent away due to his low power), and Toriyama expands on this to say that only those who pass a certain standard are taken on as combatant candidates, and trained in certain techniques like flight and so on - Raditz is a "proper combatant" like Nappa, even at this young age, and it is noted that he is in the same "group" as Nappa (I'm unsure whether that statement specifically means the same squad, though Dragon Ball itself implies as much, and Dragon Ball Super: Broly explicitly shows the young Raditz and Vegeta as members of Nappa's squad). It's difficult to know how strong a Saiyan child would have to be to be assigned to this status, though it's clear that the assessment is diachronic in some fashion, as Toriyama mentions that 'lower-class' status is assigned if their power remains low "even after a certain amount of time has passed", which may correspond to their 3 years of gestation, and would likely take into account how their power develops over that span of time (and so be subject to a certain amount of extrapolation). Raditz also mentions in DB #200 that child combatants are sent to weaker worlds and there is a certain amount of progression expected across "years of practice" before they become fully-fledged combatants sent to depopulate stronger worlds. Toriyama has also noted that a significant increase in power can occasion an increase in status, but since Bardock is still unable to break out of the "lower-class", one might conclude that he may well be weaker than Raditz, and so have a Battle Power of significantly less than 1500 - perhaps lower than 1000. Dragon Ball Super: Broly will see Freeza commend a Battle Power of just 2000 as outstanding, and while Freeza's elite scrubs laugh at a Battle Power of 1000 in DB #253, they are quickly annihilated when faced with Battle Powers of 3000, and DB #248 has showed Kuririn and Gohan, with Battle Powers of about 1500, dispatch two Freeza reconnaissance scouts from the same Force with one hit apiece.
    So, to summarise, it seems that we have something like the following when mapping what we might call the 'Galactic Combatant Standard' and 'Saiyan Social Stratification' onto each other:
    • 'True' Elite Combatants: Battle Powers ranging at several thousand and upwards (that ordinary, 'old-model' Scouters can't read a Battle Power above 22,000 seems suggestive of what the Freeza Force expects to see as the uppermost ceiling of power amongst most beings). The Ginyu Force, Zarbon, and Dodoria all exist here, as would Kiwi. Only King Vegeta III and Prince Vegeta occupy this tier from the Saiyans (and no doubt Broly would also - and, since Raditz considers Gohan's power of 710 totally outlandish, it suggests that we'd expect even an 'elite' child to be much weaker than this at first).
    • 'Upper-Class' Saiyans/'Mid-Level' Combatants: Battle Powers ranging in the low thousands for fully-fledged combatants, but probably not lower than 1000. The nameless Freeza Force scrubs have this sort of power, as do about 10 Saiyans - Nappa (4000) and Raditz (1500) both inhabit this bracket of power - since an older Paragus clocks 4200 in Dragon Ball Super:Broly, he's no doubt one of the 10ish Saiyans in this bracket, too. It's fearsome power in the broader context, and enough to set them apart from other Saiyans, but not 'truly' elite when compared with the upper echelons of Freeza's forces.
    • 'Lower-Class' Saiyans/'Lower-Level' Combatants: This probably represents Battle Powers for fully-fledged combatants that are lower than 1000, as Freeza is only interested in Battle Powers above 1000 when seeking to reconstitute his Force in Dragon Ball Super: Broly. Among Saiyans, Bardock probably fits in here, though at the extreme high end (so might be a little above 1000, but there's not much in it - there's no question of him being anywhere near to the 10,000 that A Final, Solitary Battle credits him with). Beets also belongs here, though as a non-combatant (Broly's Battle Power of 920 is higher than his fully-fledged adult power, though by how much is not mentioned). Kakarot also obviously belongs here; he'll "only" have a Battle Power of 416 by the time Raditz meets him, though he can concentrate his ki further, of course.
  • This is probably also a good opportunity to look at Saiyan attitudes, since we see Saiyans in the slums greet Bardock with honorifics ("Mr. Bardock" - he is addressed this way both by Leek in the first scene, and a random passerby), and we see a relationship of genuine affection between Bardock and Gine, which has occasioned adverse comment:
    • It should be noted, first of all, that Saiyans have always been represented as having some concept of "loyalty" which Vegeta in particular breaks with. Most noteworthy is when he kills Nappa, saying "What good are you if you cannot fight?!! None!!!!", in DB #227 - if this were a general Saiyan attitude rather than Vegeta's own, we wouldn't see Nappa shocked at what Vegeta is doing. It's clear that he expects some sort of comradely loyalty here, which Vegeta just isn't willing to give. Raditz also expects it as well, since he anticipates that Vegeta and Nappa will revive him with the Dragon Balls in DB #204 - again, Vegeta dismisses this option when Nappa puts it to him, saying "We're better off without him." Though Nappa doesn't object this time, it's still an indication that Vegeta is even less comradely than most Saiyans, who seem to have a vaguely-defined "comradely" concept of loyalty. It seems that in DBminus, Bardock's popularity comes from the fact that he saved his companions as a matter of habit, which has made him something of a hero to Saiyans of his own class. Rather than simply overturning what we know about Saiyans, this seems actually to sharpen and make explicit a latent attitude that most Saiyans apparently have, but which Vegeta in particular shuns.
    • But even Vegeta pays lip-service to the idea of loyalty in DB #219 (albeit in a negative sense) when he says Goku deserves to suffer in his death "Because he's a traitor to all Saiyans. A traitor deserves to see his son and friends die before his eyes...Deserves to feel how powerless he is...how much agony we can inflict...", and Nappa agrees with this sentiment. Raditz likewise expresses outrage that Goku is "Passing for one of them (Earthlings)...You, my own brother!" in DB #197, and he makes various passing statements that show he expects Goku to fall in line and "affirm your Saiyan birth", and that he will kill him as "a shame to our race" (DB #199). So, Saiyans have at least a strong "racial" concept of loyalty, and this is probably the strongest expression of the idea that we get. Even so, this is relativised by the fact that Raditz, Nappa, and Vegeta don't seem particularly to value the lives of fellow Saiyans (even each other), so the expression is essentially negative in character. It doesn't really show up either way in DBminus, other than as a rather perfunctory expression of gladness from the depot manager that Bardock is still alive.
    • They also show awareness of a familial concept of loyalty and attachment, although this is much weaker. Both Raditz (DB #197) and Vegeta (DB #308) make specific mention of the death of their parents as though it is significant (though Vegeta also claimed not to care, in DB #257), and Raditz presumes upon his status as older brother as a reason why Goku should obey him (DB #199); though he himself scoffs at the idea when no longer in trouble ("A true warrior never hesitates to kill...Not even to kill his own brother!"), he is also able to manipulate Goku's actions by appealing to brotherly feeling in DB #202 - it stands to reason that, if Raditz had no conept of filial loyalty at all, he wouldn't have been able to deploy it in these ways as it wouldn't have occurred to him. So, I'd argue that he does have this sense, but in a very limited way that is subordinated to his self-understanding as a warrior. This isn't surprising, since Toriyama has mentioned that only the Royal Family is "particular about blood relationships" (presumably for dynastic reasons) and "Saiyans don't have much of a sense of 'family'". Although Bardock shows singular attachment to Kakarot, even the gentle-hearted Gine notes that this is unusual behaviour for him, and for Saiyan men in general.
    • So, it seems the only truly "unusual" attitude Bardock shows is to have actual true attachment to any members of his own family (though he apparently isn't particularly interested in his own siblings); Toriyama concedes that his relationship with Gine is a "rare" bond, and it seems it is born from his tendency to save his comrades from danger. Gine's softness, commented on in DBminus, may well be in some way related to Goku's own (once he has suffered a blow to the head, that is), but it's worth noting that power sufficient to be a combatant is not mutually exclusive of the gentleness that makes her unsuited to the job. Perhaps this is related to the fact that "a gentle spirit" creates S-Cells. Not that this grants power in and of itself, of course, but Goku's inheritance of these is mentioned as key to his path to becoming a Super Saiyan, whereas his more warlike father, despite being an adept combatant, remains in a low tier. Even so, he sites Gine's influence in making him act to save Kakarot in the end.
    • In fairness, we don't get many other characteristically 'Saiyan' attitudes in the original manga (though Vegeta mentions "If you don't like someone, you kill him" as "the Saiyan way" in DB #350) - so as far as I can tell, the only way in which Bardock really goes against the grain of previously shown Saiyan tendency is to care about Gine personally, and his attention being drawn to bothering to save Kakarot, which is specifically mentioned as unusual of him, and pursued as an extreme measure under the threat of annihilation. While saving his companions is also something of a rarity among Saiyans, it just seems to take further an idea that really does already have some (limited, vague) currency among Saiyans generally. To be honest, I consider complaints over this depiction to be somewhat overdrawn.
    So, if anything, I consider Vegeta to be more of a characteristic outlier to Saiyan attitudes than Bardock is here, on the whole, as he seems to violate norms in an unusually cold-hearted way, even for a Saiyan, that undoes the expectations of his comrades and shocks even people who are familiar with how a Saiyan might usually be expected to act. Not to say that he's an unreliable witness when he makes a statement, or anything like that, but he isn't exactly a typical Saiyan, himself - that goes for his attitudes as much as anything.
  • Since Kakarot's incubator is in the same place as the Meat Distribution Centre where Gine works, it seems that she must live at her place of work (perhaps with the rest of the workforce and any families they might have and care about). As with most of the Saiyan slum buildings, it seems to directly open out onto the street without doors, and the architecture, of lumpen hovels with random spouts and numerous pimply windows, will likewise appear in the Saiyan architecture of Universe 6's Planet Sadala in 超 #32. Some sort of eatery/tavern is shown in this street, and a number of Saiyans are shown eating raw meat of the sort that Gine is preparing, along with large flagons of liquid (I assume some sort of alcohol), which are likewise being carted through the street.
  • On the subject of Kakarot's incubation, it's interesting that Saiyan gestation appears to take 3 years, with a substantial period of it spent in an artificial incubator. Vegeta and Broly will be shown this way also in more advanced models (befitting their status) in Dragon Ball Super: Broly. Since Bardock knows (as per his comment in the movie, though not here) that Kakarot will be dispatched as an infiltration baby, given his low power, we might infer (as I mentioned above) that the assessment of a Saiyan's class and place in society takes place over this gestation period, even if it can be revised later in light of radical change. One wonders how this "aplacental viviparity" (if that's quite the right expression) might have taken place among the primitive Saiyans, without the crutch of technology. It's clear that the gestating infant doesn't necessarily need an airway or umbilical-style connection to receive nutrients or the diffusion of Oxygen in order to survive, either, as that's not in evidence here. Bardock comments on Kakarot's size, which seems to feed into Jaco's comment in Jaco+1 that the Saiyans of Planet Vegeta "have a very long childhood, so they can deceive the people around them as a child until they grow up. After that, their body will quickly grow into a size that is suited to fight, and they will continue to create havoc without hardly ever aging." it seems Goku doesn't grow all that much between his 3-year gestational period here and the age of about 15 years old (he is shown at 12 and 15 years of age in DB #1-165), but is very clearly a full-grown adult by the age of 18 (DB #166 onwards). That Saiyans age slowly upon reaching maturity is mentioned by Vegeta in DB #518, and 超 #7 specifies that a Saiyan's physical prime lasts into their eighties. After that, they deteriorate quickly, so their lifespan is only slightly longer than Humans (if they survive that long, of course).
  • Gine objects to Bardock's plan as "Being an infiltration baby can be very dangerous!" Toriyama notes that the survival rate for such babies is not high, which is why they are sent to weak planets like Earth (ideally planets with Moons, as Raditz intimates in DB #197).
  • I actually really like Bardock's premonition that he senses "the presence of death" - it feels like a deliberate nod to A Final, Solitary Battle where Bardock knows about the annihilation of the Saiyans thanks to Kanassan psychic power, only instead it's a premonition that he's arrived at through thinking about the situation and developing his own suspicions. I enjoy both the nod and the new depiction.
  • Also, I think there's a nice tying of things together in Bardock's characterisation as someone who makes a point of saving his comrades - since he met Gine as part of a 4-person team and forged his connection with her by saving her often, he now effectively has a '4-person' team with her, Raditz, and Kakarot, even if they've never been together at any point - it's fitting that his ultimate act in this bonus chapter is to save the last member of this "team" from death at Freeza's hands, even if he can't save himself or Gine. I think the Dragon Ball Super: Broly Movie appropriates this aspect of Bardock really well by taking the opportunity to display three contrasting images of Saiyan fatherhood as well, in King Vegeta, Paragus, and Bardock - King Vegeta has great expectations of his son, and banishes those who would threaten it; Paragus works desperately to save his son, but twists him against his nature into both a perfect Saiyan combatant and an instrument of revenge - but Bardock has no ulterior motive: he just wants his son to survive, against all odds.
  • And finally, we get the Galactic Patrol tie-in. There's a note about the Galactic Patrol's bias against Earthlings as "weak", "immature", and "sinister", which might be connected to a report mentioned in the short Toriyama-penned work Jiya (starring another eponymous Galactic Patrolman, albeit one infinitely more competent than Jaco) - Kanzenshuu wrote an editorial on this which is definitely worth your time reading.
  • And, at the end, we get the story come full-circle. After a fashion, this seems like a gag, since it serves to undercut the gravitas of the "fateful child" trope that it presents even as it presents it. While DBminus plays up the fact that Son Goku will, in time, face off against Freeza, the nemesis of the Saiyans, readers who have reached this point will know that this has only come to pass through the manifest incompetence of the Galactic Patrol in killing him while he was a child (the whole original point of Jaco's mission) - fortunately, he is found, subdued and reared by the kindly martial arts master Son Gohan instead.
    Ultimately, I don't hate DBminus, and I think the people who do are probably overreacting, in the way that fans tend to do. But it's also hard to be super-enthusiastic about it, and it's probably best to treat it as the relatively minor little addition that it seems to be presented as in Jaco the Galactic Patrolman. For me, while it's not entirely prepossessing, it's best regarded as an interesting curiosity that gives us a lot more information about Saiyans generally, and Goku's family specifically, and it's a piece of extra fluff that ties into the already fluffy, light-hearted fare that Jaco already presented us with. That said, I am grateful that this was developed further by its insertion into Dragon Ball Super: Broly, and its skilful juxtaposition with the story of Broly, which helps mutually illuminate and deepen the backstory of all the characters involved.
Chapter 42: The One Relevant 'Broly' Page (Plus Interstitial)
Chapter Notes
  • Of course, this page serves to basically acknowledge that the events of the Dragon Ball Super: Broly movie happened. Toyotarou has mentioned that he believes one day he will draw Broly, and that he'd like to adapt the movie in some way and give it his own twist. I think I'd like to see that too. If there is ever some sort of Kanzenban-style release with extra Toyotarou-drawn content, I'd like to see his presentation of the Broly Movie in a manga format.
  • But of course, there are a couple of twists in this depiction already, brief though it is - firstly, Freeza is shown in his First Form rather than his Fourth form, and secondly, we see SSjB Goku and Vegeta take on SSj Broly together in what seems a relatively fresh condition on something other than a wrecked Hellscape - the movie instead has them fight individually for most of the time, teaming up only for a brief and inconsequential skirmish before fleeing the battlefield to learn Fusion from Piccolo. Toyotarou will double down on the partnership depiction in this fight, as he will again show SSjB Goku and Vegeta taking on SSj Broly together in the relevant Bonus Comic. I get the feeling that this would be an indication of one significant change in approach if he were ever to expand this into a whole chapter. Despite shifts in emphasis like this, however, it's clear that Toyotarou intends to preserve the same basic story beats from the movie unchanged.
  • It should be noted that we get our first full manga depiction of Berryblue in the first panel - she's one of Freeza's veteran advisors, and so isn't afraid to say anything to him. She didn't appear at all in the Revival of F promo manga or the tease at the end of 超 #4, so maybe she was frozen out during Sorbet's tenure? At any rate, she's pretty 'simpatico' with Freeza, as a future Bonus Comic will have them both echo the sentiment (contrary to Kikono's understanding) that their dealings are legitimate business, unlike Moro's 'criminal' activities.
  • And, of course, the depiction of the Broly fight wins the prize of Favourite Art among the Broly-related manga material - I believe it was also used for promotional purposes at the time, as Chapter 42 was published shortly before the Broly Movie's theatrical release. But I also like his promotional black-and-white image of SSj Broly published in the same V-Jump issue as Chapter 42. Toyotarou likes Broly, and I think he also enjoys drawing him - when he did DBAF as Toyble, he made sure to include Broly as a character with an important part to play (albeit, I believe, taking his design cues from the more svelte Broly of DBZ Movie 10, rather than the iconic monster hambeast of DBZ Movie 8). As he says, "Just standing there, he makes a perfect picture".
  • Finally, we have the interstitial between 超 #42 and 超 #43, where SSjB Gogeta tells Broly there's no room for their "epic battle" in the collected release. I guess the only thing of note here is that this is the first time we see Toyotarou draw Broly (albeit roughed up) in his 'Full Power' SSj form, as he has otherwise tended to draw him in his Battle Jacket.
"Extra Edition" #4 (or Bonus Chapter #5, I Suppose)
21 July 2019
Chapter Notes
  • This discussion is set as part of 超 #43, where Goku explains that "We even ran into another Saiyan recently..." and Vegeta wanders off mentally, thinking about Merus's speed - this Bonus Comic fills in the gap of what they're talking about here, with our only other manga-based depiction of Dragon Ball Super: Broly to date.
  • As noted above, the summary doesn't change anything very substantive about the storyline - it's just a really brief overview. However, Toyotarou doubles down on depicting SSjB Goku and Vegeta opposing SSj Broly together. I think I like this - since Dragon Ball Super has made a strong thematic push toward fusing Goku and Vegeta into a fighting unit, even if often against their initial instincts, it seems to fit well to have them doing this for Broly, as the standard manga depiction of them taking him on (as opposed to the rather perfunctory, swiftly-abandoned way they do it in the movie. And, of course, learning and performing Fusion to pull out the win is the latest permutation of the Teamwork theme that works throughout the whole series.
  • Goku notes that Broly's power continued to rise throughout the fight - this is of course the key thing about the encounter, in the same way as the encounter with Universe 6's Kale in 超 #37-38, where she also turns SSj and her power continues to rise. This has lately been emphasised as a Saiyan trait, as Toriyama has remarked that the longer Saiyans fight against stronger opponents, the more completely they can close the gap by becoming stronger themselves. It's clear from Goku's description that SSj Broly was too much for SSjB Goku and Vegeta fighting him together, which probably means more coming from a depiction that had the pair fight together in perfect sync against Jiren in 超 #41-42.
  • I have to say, I think the art is very effective in the use of the montage panels: the SSjBs vs. Broly, the Fusion into Gogeta (who looks very cool, by the way - there was a question as to whether he was consistently depicted in SSjB throughout this comic, but the digital colour version has answered that question in the affirmative very decisively), the wish made on Shenron to send Broly back to Vampa just as the final blow is about to be struck (with our only manga depictions of Cheelai and Lemo to date), and the montage of the original Saiyan characters involved, Toyotarou really manages to do quite a lot of depiction of the story's main elements with very little space.
  • Merus mentions he's familiar with Vampa and its conditions - it's difficult to be certain whether Merus knows this because he's a trainee Angel, or because it's in one of the 104 sectors he manages as a Galactic Patrolman. However, since planets like Yardrat and Zoon are beyond the reach of the Galactic Patrol (and Yardrat is specifically mentioned as being beyond Galactic Patrol jurisdiction, in 超 #55), one might assume the same of Vampa (I guess the Patrol just haven't got that far down the Alphabet yet).
  • In the final panel, we see King Cold, King Vegeta III, a younger Paragus, Bardock, and Gine. These are the main players in the first third of the movie, and the first depiction of Paragus in the published manga format. We also have a "Toyotarou Drew It!!" showing Paragus as he appears in the 'present day'. With that, I think Toyotarou managed to depict all of the primary actors in the storyline at some point or other. For the depiction of King Vegeta III, we see this come into line with the movie, rather than the former depiction of this character - Toriyama designed King Vegeta as basically 'normal Vegeta with a goatee', and 超 #3 depicts him this way also. Of course, it's possible that he changed his style of facial hair at some point before Freeza killed him (which, although it has never been depicted in the manga, was mentioned by Freeza himself in DB #296).
...Aaaand that's about it; this was probably waaay too long given the tiny amount of relevant material it covered, but I hope y'all enjoyed it anyway. I don't really expect you to tell me what you got out of re-reading this bit, heh...

Anyway, that's it for the year! Hope you've enjoyed reading along, and thanks to all concerned for giving your own thoughts about the series so far. I'll be finishing off the previous instalment (超 #41-44) with the opening of the Galactic Patrol Prisoner arc in the New Year - so hopefully that should be out next Friday (New Year's Day). After that, the usual 4 Chapter-per-fortnight schedule will resume starting from Monday 11 January. So, look out for that stuff then, and keep on re-reading..!

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Yuji
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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by Yuji » Fri Dec 25, 2020 12:27 pm

The overall dissatisfaction, I feel, with Minus (and Broly's first third) comes via comparison with the TV Special. Minus appropriates much of the TV Special's setting, plot and set-pieces, while displacing (or degrading) the themes that had made the TV Special stand out from other Dragon Ball material. Castaway infiltration baby Goku's story, as presented in the original as discarded by his compatriots due to his low battle power, only now being sought out by his brother out of desperation and necessity, but once more rejected due to the kind nature he had developed, is strengthened by the fact that his father was just as ruthless, unforgiving, selfish and wicked as the Saiyans Goku would eventually come to do battle with; and the rich cosmic irony of the Earth's savior being its original, predetermined destroyer is lost in the modern retelling. Taken on its own, Minus/Broly's Bardock being selflessly caring of his son imbues the movie with a bittersweet touch, as Goku effectively cares little to none about the parents that had cared so much about him, but I still feel like the thematic embellishments that the TV Special makes to the original story trumps Toriyama's version. This isn't to say the TV Special is devoid of faults, but as a thematically rich, tonally independent, standalone tragedy, it stands on its own as an interesting and unparalleled story.

Personally, I do believe that taken on its own, Minus/Broly's Saiyan backstory is largely acceptable fluff, but when confronted with the already pre-existing alternative that the modern retelling clearly borrows from to tell its own inferior story, it comes across as unnecessary and, to some, insulting (though I wouldn't take it that far, myself).

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The Undying
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Re: The Super Re-Read

Post by The Undying » Fri Dec 25, 2020 1:23 pm

Personally, I completely agree with Magnificent Ponta on Minus. If I have any distaste for that chapter, it's purely because it's background fluff rather than a concisely told story. Its depiction of Bardock doesn't make him more "special" than the original TV outing, in my view; he thinks more critically than most other Saiyans and appears to have more of an altruistic streak than expected, but he's certainly not as physically out-of-the-ordinary as originally portrayed. He does stand out psychologically, but I'm fine with that, and I feel that his TV special arguably infringes on the Saiyan arc's themes more than Minus since it highlights Goku's genetic potential over his individual talents and hard work. But I understand why some of the audience might feel differently. As Yuji puts it, de-emphasizing the irony of Goku's purpose in conquering the planet he considers home is an understandable critique. I'd argue that neither one of them ultimately enhances the original manga, and both thus feel unnecessary as stand-alones, but you can enjoy them if they resonate.

However, as the re-read has noted, and as I've said many many times, the Minus material works perfectly in the Broly film. I love the movie upholding its primary theme of fatherhood and generational ripple effects through its juxtaposition of Goku, Vegeta and Broly. I'm surprised you didn't mention the bonus chapter's final panel deliberately only showing the parents of DBS Broly's principal cast, although I suppose the narration box spells it out well enough on its own.

While Toyotaro does take a few artistic liberties in drawing Broly's events, I really don't get the impression that he's trying to change anything about the film. Note that Goku and Vegeta's clothes are intact (with absolutely no battle damage) when they use the fusion dance, which is honestly unlikely if they're supposed to be doing that as a last resort. The manga takes these liberties as a way of compressing the film to get its points across, but I don't think the intention was to imply it happened differently at all. It skips it because it's essentially asking its readers to watch it.

Merry Christmas, y'all!
Formerly Marlowe89.

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