My apologies, Toyotaro

[MechaTrunks]

I've been fairly critic to Toyotaro's fanservice in this last saga of the DBS manga, mostly when it came to Moro and how all the Z-fighters survived his attacks despite the disparity between their powers.
But re-reading Chapter 62, I've paid more attention to what was said and Moro stated there that he is not killing anyone on purpose, as he plans to eat them once they're defeated.

So yep, that alone fixes my main problem with the power scaling of this saga, which I thought was broken and resembled more the first DB sagas than the perfection achieved during the "Z" part when it came to that (still not at "Z" levels of perfection in my opinion, but much closer to that than I thought).

Toyotaro has proven to be a worthy successor of Toriyama (even if that's because Toriyama supervises him). Maybe it still hasn't achived the depth he managed when he really went for it (the Cell saga is one of the most brilliantly convoluted plots involving a time machine that I've read, and he made it work better than in most other fictions) but he's better when it comes to that more "sentimentalistic" approach modern shounens like to include since One Piece (scenes like Vegeta telling Trunks to heal Goku instead of him were pure Gold).

There is still a tad more of fanservice that I would like, but nothing to the point where it destroys the series. And everytime I think he's made a big mistake he "fixes" it when all it's said and done (like when Piccolo was suddenly able to tell that SSJB Goku was stronger, which was retconned a chapter later to be just Piccolo's impression but nothing he could be sure of).

All in all, the DBS manga is a worthy successor of the DBZ one, and much better than anything Toei's writters could ever hope to do (except for that day in the year when they actually become good and write chapters like DBS 94 & 95 which are pure gold).

Regards!

[Matches Malone]

I've been a very vocal supporter of both Toyotaro and this arc, and I believe that modern DB has a very bright future ahead of it if he'll be in charge moving forward. With that said, the current arc has major pacing issues that he needs to avoid in his future stories.

All in all, the DBS manga is a worthy successor of the DBZ one, and much better than anything Toei's writers could ever hope to do.

That's not much of a complement considering both Super and GT were as bottom of a barrel as sequels could get. If you're going to make a sequel to one of, if not the most influential manga of all time, both are great examples of everything not to do. How they could mess up so badly not once, but twice, is something I'll never understand.

[Trouser]

I'm a "fan" of his work since Dragon Ball AF and Dragon Ball Zero. I was really glad that he get to work on something official like Dragon Ball Heroes and later Dragon Ball Super.
I think he's doing his best and a lot of a pressure is on his shoulders. I preffer his version of Dragon Ball Super (except his Tournament of Power, where he made some really stupid and bad decisions. Yes, I'm mainly talking about Roshi...) but it's not that great either. And that's okay, it's not his fault, it's Toriyama's fault for not giving a fuck and making very stupid decisions. I mean, untill Moro arc (we don't know much about what happened behind the scenes, besides Merus being Toriyama's idea) that is.

If it comes to Moro arc... I don't have much to say. It's okay, I guess? Only thing about that arc that I really, really, reeeeally dislike is the new design for Moro. The older one is wayyyy better.

I must say, Toyotaro's big plus is that he's explaining things if they need to be explained. Not like Toei. Hmm, what more? His special/bonus chapters are really cool.

If I had to choose between Toei's writers and Toyotaro, then Toyotaro all the way! Maybe he's not the best succesor of Toriyama but he is good enough in my opinion.

edit:
It's sad that his work will probably forever be incomplete. The lack of Resurrection of F (it's the worst DB story btw) and Broly...

[Matches Malone]

It's sad that his work will probably forever be incomplete. The lack of Resurrection of F (it's the worst DB story btw) and Broly...

That may change in the future. If Super were to ever get a Kanzenban later down the road, we could end up getting an extended BOG arc, alongside the missing movie arcs. I don't know if you're a Shaman King fan, but the author had to end things abruptly for some reason, but when he got the chance to put the manga out in the higher quality Kanzenban, he included at least 10 more new chapters.

[MechaTrunks]

I've been a very vocal supporter of both Toyotaro and this arc, and I believe that modern DB has a very bright future ahead of it if he'll be in charge moving forward. With that said, the current arc has major pacing issues that he needs to avoid in his future stories.

All in all, the DBS manga is a worthy successor of the DBZ one, and much better than anything Toei's writers could ever hope to do.

That's not much of a complement considering both Super and GT were as bottom of a barrel as sequels could get. If you're going to make a sequel to one of, if not the most influential manga of all time, both are great examples of everything not to do. How they could mess up so badly not once, but twice, is something I'll never understand.

Hahahah well yeah surpassing Toei is not a big deal, but he managed to bring some of DBZ's complexity and subtlety which I don't considere an easy task either.

I preffer his version of Dragon Ball Super (except his Tournament of Power, where he made some really stupid and bad decisions. Yes, I'm mainly talking about Roshi...) but it's not that great either

What? I loved that Roshi scene, it's DB at it's best in my opinion. Very good tie in with Roshi's lessons and the turtle martial arts school in general (which also tied with the teachings the "gods" had been giving to Goku) and very good performance by Roshi without breaking the internal coherence of the fight... and an excellent way to introduce the UI.
In fact, I prefered it much more to the one in this saga, I still don't quite see how Goku will be able to master UI going through a rage boost (I hope it's not simply that).

It's sad that his work will probably forever be incomplete. The lack of Resurrection of F (it's the worst DB story btw) and Broly...

If the errors of this part had were fixed I would say it's good enough. It reintroduces Freeza, it develops the character in a meaningful and believable way and it also introduces the concept of the UI.
It's just that the movie only being half written by Toriyama (he just wrote the parts involving Freeza and let Toei handle the Z-warriors vs freeza's army fight) and the saga in the anime the worst animated one (despite starting with a very good level) doesn't help it.

That may change in the future. If Super were to ever get a Kanzenban later down the road, we could end up getting an extended BOG arc, alongside the missing movie arcs. I don't know if you're a Shaman King fan, but the author had to end things abruptly for some reason, but when he got the chance to put the manga out in the higher quality Kanzenban, he included at least 10 more new chapters.

That would be amazing!

Regards!

[Trouser]

It's sad that his work will probably forever be incomplete. The lack of Resurrection of F (it's the worst DB story btw) and Broly...

That may change in the future. If Super were to ever get a Kanzenban later down the road, we could end up getting an extended BOG arc, alongside the missing movie arcs. I don't know if you're a Shaman King fan, but the author had to end things abruptly for some reason, but when he got the chance to put the manga out in the higher quality Kanzenban, he included at least 10 more new chapters.

I've watched Shaman King as a kid, I don't remember much... But! That would be great!

What? I loved that Roshi scene, it's DB at it's best in my opinion. Very good tie in with Roshi's lessons and the turtle martial arts school in general (which also tied with the teachings the "gods" had been giving to Goku) and very good performance by Roshi without breaking the internal coherence of the fight... and an excellent way to introduce the UI.

The concept is great, but execution is soooo bad. Come on, Roshi dodging Jiren's fists? It's impossible even if Jiren were to use 5% of his power. Old geezer should be dead or knocked out. Hell (or HFIL hehe), in OG DB he said he was surpassed by younger warriors.
It would work, but not against Jiren. It shuld be someone wayyyy weaker than Jiren. I don't know... Maybe Vege... I mean, that flying little guy form u11? I forgot the names of these characters.

I still don't quite see how Goku will be able to master UI going through a rage boost (I hope it's not simply that).

I think Goku will be pissed off for one panel but he's eventually going to calm himself down (UI is all about calmness). Then he'll awaken Mastered Ultra Instinct (I don't really like this name...). Let's hope Moro won't gain another asspull powerup...

[BWri]

I began cutting him some slack because he is improving. He doesn't always do the things I like but I always respected that he kept things more sensible and conservative with the power scaling compared to the anime. I think in the ToP, he started doing some questionable things to the power scale and I didn't like his rushed and frenzied writing style for this arc, but I think it's here that I realized, he has more pressure on his shoulders than most people on this forum could even imagine, myself included.

He is, in many respects, a novice manga-ka. Sure, he's done his own doujin but DBS is his first official work as far as I'm aware. He's taking over from a man who is most likely the most famous manga-ka on the planet and is almost solely responsible for the production of the monthly manga version of the story which includes not only the artwork, which is a task itself, but also the bulk of the story beats. Replicating such a unique style cannot be easy, which he did, and then breathing life into it, such as what Toriyama-san used to effortlessly do is another skill entirely. You can almost feel his confidence and skill increase as you view the DBS manga art from volume to volume. And now, I think he is doing the same with the story, he is slowly gaining skill and confidence in this area. My problems with his T.O.P. stemmed from what I immediately perceived to be a "rushed" production schedule for that arc. Seeing Kale eliminate half the arena in a single chapter just gives me that feeling of someone sprinting from the finish line and I don't think that's his fault.

It's hard for me to harshly judge someone who's shackled creatively by Toriyama-san's script and Toei's mandates suggestions. I think he's doing fine for all the circumstances that surround him. I respect that he's working closely with Toriyama-san to gain his insights and approval. It shows how earnest he is about making DBS as close to the source material as he possibly can. Realistically however, he is his own person and not a copy machine, so DB will never be as when AT wrote it. As long as people come to terms with that and respect that Toyotaro is doing his best, I think any criticisms are fair and warranted.

[HulkTySSJ4]

Never disliked him.
Been watching since Day 1 of his AF days when he was still Toyble.

I really think he'll try to add Xicor/Zaiko and SSJ5's designs into the franchise when Akira passes away. Rather or not they remain what they are, or simply the designs used for new characters or forms is on him though.

[Matches Malone]

I really think he'll try to add Xicor/Zaiko and SSJ5's designs into the franchise when Akira passes away.

Why would he have to wait for Toriyama to pass away ? He already has a lot of freedom when it comes to creating new stories. When it comes to the Ssj5 design, it might be off limits due to it being taken from a Spanish artist, the original design I mean.

[mute_proxy]

I think when Toriyama passes, people will start noticing garbage content and will slow down/stop consuming it.
The very popular excuse "everything is overlooked and approved by Toriyama" will be out the window too.

[SupremeKai25]

Never disliked him.
Been watching since Day 1 of his AF days when he was still Toyble.

I really think he'll try to add Xicor/Zaiko and SSJ5's designs into the franchise when Akira passes away. Rather or not they remain what they are, or simply the designs used for new characters or forms is on him though.

Isn't Xicor basically Goku Black anyway?

- Saiyan-Kai hybrid
- Evil saiyan connected to Goku
- God complex
- Desire to rule over the entire universe

[Magnificent Ponta]

I think when Toriyama passes, people will start noticing garbage content and will slow down/stop consuming it.
The very popular excuse "everything is overlooked and approved by Toriyama" will be out the window too.

You seem to say that as though people don't already freely take it upon themselves to nitpick and bash almost every facet of the work already, irrespective of how unreasonable such views may be when closely examined.

It seems pretty clear to me that people already feel quite free to look down on Toyotarou's work and be very vocal on how little they think of it, because he's just another fan, rather than the original creator of Dragon Ball. Frankly, I've seen more instances of people 'noticing' and criticising things they don't like about the manga which aren't even there than I've seen people use Toriyama's imprimatur to overlook glaring flaws in the work.

[BWri]

I also just want to add that I think he's playing around with existing Dragon Ball concepts and archetypes to get a proper feel for them. There's a lot of replication in what he does of things Toriyama-san has previously done. In many ways, I think this is natural.

When he have heroes, we tend to emulate them and I think it's even more fitting when we're chosen to be the "heir apparent" of said hero. He has to literally learn to BE Toriyama-san if he wants to continue Dragon Ball. What a weird situation to be in! He wasn't given a new generation to work with or an alternate timeline or completely new characters. He was hired with the purpose of continuing the main timeline and hardly no time has passed between Toyotarou's first arc and Toriyama-san's last. No time for the characters to change based of how they were last depicted from a different author. INSANITY! Even moreso when you consider that he and Toriyama-san have no previous affiliation before the production of Dragon Ball Super. He had no direct insight into the way his hero made decisions.

Again, for all that intense pressure and strangeness, I think he's doing a good job. Think about it. He can't do anything completely new or radical or there will likely be outrage, he can't completely stick to old stuff because people will just call him a copycat, and even when he mixes it up and does what he thinks is interesting, if it isn't close to what people think is Toriyama-san's vision then they'll get offended. There's only a limited amount of things he can do and even when he plays it safe, he'll get criticism for being boring (which is how I've criticized him in the past). I am very curious as to what he'd do with the series after he gains full confidence and is fully unleashed.

[Kinokima]

I think when Toriyama passes, people will start noticing garbage content and will slow down/stop consuming it.
The very popular excuse "everything is overlooked and approved by Toriyama" will be out the window too.

You seem to say that as though people don't already freely take it upon themselves to nitpick and bash almost every facet of the work already, irrespective of how unreasonable such views may be when closely examined.

It seems pretty clear to me that people already feel quite free to look down on Toyotarou's work and be very vocal on how little they think of it, because he's just another fan, rather than the original creator of Dragon Ball. Frankly, I've seen more instances of people 'noticing' and criticising things they don't like about the manga which aren't even there than I've seen people use Toriyama's imprimatur to overlook glaring flaws in the work.

Exactly the hatred Toyotaro gets is ridiculous. No one is saying the manga is a flawless masterpiece but he gets unreasonable hatred

1) People calling him just a fanboy (as though other ppl working on modern Dragon Ball aren’t just as big as fans as he is)

2) Literally harassing him on his twitter and then complaining when they get blocked

3) And yes putting every decision on him when Toriyama and Toyo’s editors also look over the work/make suggestions. No one is saying that Toyo’s free of criticism the manga is his work but he also isn’t given free reign to do whatever he wants like some people act. Usually manga-ka for example don’t make the decision on their own how long or short an arc is going to be

4) Or constantly saying he loves this character/hates this character and that is why they are written that way is just unfounded silly criticism with no basis in reality. You can criticize how a character is written but just because you disagree with how Toyo writes a character doesn’t mean he has a hidden agenda for or against a certain character.


5) Just to show an example of ridiculous criticism someone posted all the alternative covers on Twitter and people thought this was a reason to bash Toyo because the back covers were to similar to the front covers...even though that was the entire point.


I do find myself defending Toyo a lot. That’s not because I think he is the greatest manga-ka ofall time or he can’t improve. I just think some of the criticism of him is borderline awful and not constructive in the least.

[Skar]

I think when Toriyama passes, people will start noticing garbage content and will slow down/stop consuming it.
The very popular excuse "everything is overlooked and approved by Toriyama" will be out the window too.

I miss the days discussing the original manga and anime. If something didn't make sense in filler, it was usually dismissed as filler and we didn't try too hard to explain it. The manga wasn't perfect but it made discussions easier since we knew what came from Toriyama and what didn't. Nowadays, many fans assume every detail in the DBS manga and anime is approved by Toriyama and there's extra need to make sense of everything. I'm not saying all manga or anime-only scenes in DBS are bad but sometimes they might overlook something in the effort to fill out the outline and doesn't always make sense especially if they're short on time. I do think Toyotaro sometimes gets harsher criticism than Toei though.

If Toriyama does retire and they decide to continue the series, I don't think it'll last especially if it's handled the same way it is now. I don't know of many examples in Japan of a long running series continuing after the original author retires. I know about Boruto but that's far less successful than Naruto was. The DBS manga outsold Boruto manga last year but both are still far below the top 10 best selling manga of 2019. I'm not sure how well the anime is doing and if the manga sales stopped their decline this year.

[Matches Malone]

If Toriyama does retire and they decide to continue the series, I don't think it'll last especially if it's handled the same way it is now.

If DB is to continue post Toriyama, it needs to go in a completely different direction, otherwise it'll just be constantly compared to what came before, and how it would've been better if Toriyama was still on board.

[Skar]

If DB is to continue post Toriyama, it needs to go in a completely different direction, otherwise it'll just be constantly compared to what came before, and how it would've been better if Toriyama was still on board.

It would scrutinized more without Toriyama's involvement. The original author is the one who built the foundation for the story and proven themselves over their years so fans are more willing to forgive a few missteps every now and then. A new writer will inevitably be compared to Toriyama and mostly likely when he was at his best.

I was trying to think of other examples besides Boruto of an anime continuing after the manga ended or author retired. I know of some that had short spin-offs or a movie but that's it. I checked to see how long Boruto might last and it's author estimates it'll be around 120 chapters in total. It's currently at chapter 49 so it's not halfway yet. These plans could change depending if the manga sales keep declining. I know Jump cancels underperforming titles but I'm not sure how low sales have to drop before that's considered.

[Matches Malone]

I checked to see how long Boruto might last and it's author estimates it'll be around 120 chapters in total. It's currently at chapter 49 so it's not halfway yet. These plans could change depending if the manga sales keep declining. I know Jump cancels underperforming titles but I'm not sure how low sales have to drop before that's considered.

Naruto was73 volumes, and the author said he'd like to get it to 100, with 11 out, that's 84, so 16 to go. Jump does cancel series that don't sell well, but does that apply to V Jump as well ? I think Boruto might be in a different situation, as it's a multi-media franchise, so it doesn't rely on the manga alone for income.

[Skar]

Naruto was73 volumes, and the author said he'd like to get it to 100, with 11 out, that's 84, so 16 to go. Jump does cancel series that don't sell well, but does that apply to V Jump as well ? I think Boruto might be in a different situation, as it's a multi-media franchise, so it doesn't rely on the manga alone for income.

I'm not sure about V-Jump. I read that Boruto was moved from weekly to monthly but I don't know if that was due to declining sales or the author struggled with the weekly schedule. It's selling a lot worse than Naruto and I think the anime has worse ratings since it doesn't make the top 10 (in the few weeks I looked over at least). The same might happen to the DBS manga and anime once Toriyama retired and isn't credited with supervising. It probably won't get canceled but it's unlikely to perform as well.

[Matches Malone]

I'm not sure about V-Jump. I read that Boruto was moved from weekly to monthly but I don't know if that was due to declining sales or the author struggled with the weekly schedule.

Boruto was published monthly in Weekly Shonen Jump as well, so the move was probably due to sales not catching on to other franchises.