How Would Moro Arc Piccolo Fare In DBZ?

[theherodjl]

Piccolo goes into that filler chamber in Kami's Temple at his current battle power and has to face off against the villains of the past. How far would Piccolo make it against every DBZ villain(including movie villains) before he might be in over his head?

[Skar]

I've seen estimates for Piccolo's power vary from SSJ2 to SSJB tier. I don't think we have concrete evidence of how much stronger the secondary characters are other than "stronger than before". I'm pretty sure he was still weaker than Perfect Cell by the Buu saga so I don't know how much he could've improved in another six years. He was weaker than a Gohan in RoF who lost so much power that he wasn't confident he could still transform into SSJ. I say he might be able to defeat a Cell Jr or Cell but some fans believe he could one-shot Buuhan.

[Cipher]

This is pretty much just a Strength Thread questions, right...?

But I'll bite: I could go Cell-ish. We really have no idea, but:

In the U6 arc, he's told he has no chance of winning against, but manages to at least give some trouble to, Frost, who can nevertheless be beaten easily by Super Saiyan Goku or Vegeta. The last clear character we had who was certifiably too much for Piccolo but easy enough for Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta was Cell (-ish; so say Frost is either slightly weaker than Perfect Cell was, or Goku and Vegeta have gotten slightly stronger so as to overcome the gap). Let's assume Piccolo hasn't made any significant gains from the Cell arc onward, because there's certainly no dialogue or other evidence in either DB or Super to cause us to do so. This also squares comfortably with Resurrection "F", where, as pointed out above, he is expressly weaker than a Gohan who has reverted down from being able to access his power-up from the Elder Kaioshin into only being able to use his previous Super Saiyan forms. It all seems to indicate a Piccolo more or less where we last left him in terms of his final bits of action and confirmed strength increases in DB.

Nothing more on Piccolo's power until Goku comments that both he and Gohan have improved when he shows up in the Moro arc. So ... Cell-ish? Perhaps he'd no longer lose to Frost? It's the kind of jump to warrant a comment about substantial increase--think about how substantial, in context, the jump was from first-form Cell's level to the characters exiting the Room of Spirit and TIme--but it doesn't need to, and isn't indicated to, be anything more substantial than that.

I generally don't assume characters have gotten radically, radically stronger in the series unless expressly indicated through either dialogue or action, as the original DB tends to be pretty thorough about doing so, or, in the absence of doing so, clearly leaving characters behind/where they were.

IMO the only reason this is really even a question is because of the early Super anime, where a lack of consistency in whether or not Goku and Vegeta had kept their "F"-level base forms caused a large number of fans to read and accept other characters as being absurdly strong by virtue of shared opponents, prior to the idea of a retcon catching on. The original Dragon Ball, with the Super manga largely following suit, is pretty thorough about always sparing a line of dialogue for major strength increases, even when it might be perfectly obvious without them. When they don't, assume none have happened, because that usually turns out to be the case as well. So either Piccolo went from being between first-form Cell and the Super Saiyans to SS3/Blue/what-have-you in the span of time betwen the Universe 6 arc and Moro, after many years in-fiction of staying at around the same power, which seems ... pretty unlikely, or he's just gotten a bit stronger than he was last confirmed to have been.

[theherodjl]

Really? Only Cell-tier? I had thought that since Piccolo whipped Gohan back into Ultimate shape, that Piccolo might at least be on par with one of Boo's lower forms. I guess I could be overestimating Piccolo...

[Jack Bz]

I think Piccolo is probably super saiyan 3 tier by now. Recently the manga isn't displaying any big differences in strength between 17, 18 and Piccolo to me, and 17 seems to be super saiyan 3 tier in the manga by his fight against Goku. Though that is a stronger Goku than Z. I think him being as strong as Cell is way too weak considering he's often paired with Gohan (who is by now stronger than Kefla from the ToP), and is his training partner.

It makes sense to me that Piccolo by now could beat fat boo but would probably lose to kid boo. But really his power is probably the most ambiguous at this point in time.

[Hugo Boss]

It’s not really clear how strong Piccolo is, but Moro didn’t took him lightly when he was stomping Vegeta and everyone else. He didn’t even let Piccolo charge his light grenade. Perhaps that would be kind a nuisance to him? I don’t know. And Gohan wasn’t doing much against Saganbo either, honestly I can’t even tell the difference. And this was a Gohan much stronger than the one that matched Kefla.

So, personally, no DBZ villain, save for Beerus, can do him any harm. I’m a little hesitant on lumping him with the likes of Golden Freeza and Hit though. Maybe SSGod tier?

[Cipher]

Really? Only Cell-tier? I had thought that since Piccolo whipped Gohan back into Ultimate shape, that Piccolo might at least be on par with one of Boo's lower forms. I guess I could be overestimating Piccolo...

You’re certainly not alone in imagining a very strong Piccolo, as even this thread shows, but you have to find a reason for him to have made such drastic gains between U6 and Moro, after not making them for so long (very clear in RoF; backed up by U6 in the manga/assuming Goku and Vegeta do not have their super-strong base forms from the movie), as well as why he never receives the clear commentary the series always doles out for such gains in a meta-sense.

All we have is: We know Piccolo is still weaker than Boo-arc Super Saiyans in early Super; he has received one comment about a power-increase since, and no other action-based moments from which to better understand by how much. (But when it’s by *a lot*, as with ToP #17 or Gohan, the series finds ways to be quite clear about it through both action and dialogue. See also: SS2 Trunks being on par with SS3, even though that’s no longer a horribly relevant level of power.)

Edit — Of course, the next chapter could come out and show us Piccolo sparing with SS3 Goku and I’d be wrong. It’s just that as of now, I just don’t see it.

17, 18 and Piccolo to me, and 17 seems to be super saiyan 3 tier in the manga by his fight against Goku.

Probably more than SS3, as Goku says after the ToP that #17 had more or less caught up to them.

Unless #18 has mysteriously made the same leaps off-page, to no one’s commentary, even though #17 prompted plenty, I don’t assume the four of #17, 18, Piccolo and Gohan being given trouble by Moro and Saganbo mean they’re all on the same level—rather, the difference is simply so great that not even #17 and Gohan (with backup from #18 and Piccolo) can do anything.

[Thani]

In the anime: he ended the ToP weaker than Ultimate Gohan, but slightly stronger than SSj2 Gohan, since he outfought him in their training.

In the manga: it was never detailed just how Piccolo made Gohan recover his power, so I'll assume it was somewhat similar to the anime. So slightly stronger than Gohan's SSj2. By the time of Moro's arc, him and Gohan did continue training, and Goku noticed that they've got much stronger since the last time he saw them. Giving Piccolo the benefit of the doubt, I'd give him a SSj3 realm of power, a whole transformation type of increase.

One thing I noticed, tho it's off-topic, is that it was both mentioned that Gohan was weaker than Goku and Vegeta during the arc, but also the strongest fighter on Earth in their absence. Once before Goku and Vegeta go train to prepare for Moro, and once more when Piccolo states that they (Piccolo and Gohan) are still nowhere near him in power.

[UpFromTheSkies]

There's not much consistency when it comes to battle power in Dragon Ball, I dont think Toriyama considers the story serious enough to worry about details like that, but based on what he's capable of doing in the current arc I'd say he's probably strong enough to defeat perfect Cell at this point, and maybe hold his own against Buu when he first appeared

[Koitsukai]

They have been vague about it that he could be shown taking down a god level opponent or get beaten up by a SS3 level foe.

To me by the end of the Buu arc he was as strong or stronger than a Cell Jr, that is weaker than Perfect Cell but stronger than big-lipped Cell. Little gains after the Cell Games, nothing suggested otherwise. He couldn't take them back then, he should 7 years later.
RoF has him weaker than SS Gohan, who is also pretty weak, so that Cell Jr. level still stands. By the U6 arc, he made a tired Frost use cheatcodes to win, thus placing him close to DBS SS level that isn't that much stronger than Buu arc SS level.
I'm assuming the off-screen training with Gohan for the ToP went like in the anime, promoting Piccolo to the SS2 tier. And now he has become much stronger after training some more with Gohan, so with a conservative approach I think he could be comparable to SS3 Goku. I don't think he is below SS2 at all, that much I can certainly say, however I don't believe he is god level either. That kind of growth would've gotten some clear-cut statement, so I'm settling around SS3 level, like 17.

I believe he could take down Perfect Cell as easily as Gohan did, Fat Buu should also lose to him, but from Kid Buu onwards I think he is toasted. He kills every Broly iteration, he kills Bojack and his gang, I don't think he can take Janemba or Hirudegan.

[LoganForkHands73]

I believe current Piccolo could easily steamroll through just about everything until Buu, who would definitely give him trouble. But even then, I think Piccolo would have a strong chance of at least dealing with Fat Buu. I reckon that's more or less where he peaks. However, both the anime and manga have shown Piccolo fighting side by side with Gohan as if they're roughly on the same level, so who can really say. Gohan's unquestionably far stronger in both mediums but the fact that Piccolo can keep pace at all, and was even the reason Gohan managed to re-ascend to that level, may make me think twice.

[theherodjl]

I know that SDBH is probably one of the most inconsistent sources in determining character strength...but how about Piccolo's makankosappo drilling right through Kamioren, a fighter that is SSJB-tier? For a guy that is thought to still be within DBZ's level of power, Piccolo's strongest attack can make him somewhat relevant, even if for a moment.

[Koitsukai]

I know that SDBH is probably one of the most inconsistent sources in determining character strength...but how about Piccolo's makankosappo drilling right through Kamioren, a fighter that is SSJB-tier? For a guy that is thought to still be within DBZ's level of power, Piccolo's strongest attack can make him somewhat relevant, even if for a moment.

But isn't SDBH happening some time after DBS? I don't think it's even clear when all that takes place.

I wouldn't bring in SDBH to establish someone's strenght, trying to compare DBS to GT is already a pain in the ass, it's worse with a promotional anime that contradicts itself constantly.
Definitely wouldn't consider it when trying to understand the power of a character in the main continuity, I doubt Toyo is taking Heroes into account when coming up with Piccolo's current PL.

[theherodjl]

But isn't SDBH happening some time after DBS? I don't think it's even clear when all that takes place.

I wouldn't bring in SDBH to establish someone's strenght, trying to compare DBS to GT is already a pain in the ass, it's worse with a promotional anime that contradicts itself constantly.
Definitely wouldn't consider it when trying to understand the power of a character in the main continuity, I doubt Toyo is taking Heroes into account when coming up with Piccolo's current PL.

Piccolo's feat in SDBH isn't unbelievable though. The makankosappo is a multiplier when there is time to charge it and Piccolo had time to charge it. If Android arc Tenshinhan can knock down Semi Perfect Cell with his special technique then Piccolo could certainly use his own technique to damage a SSJB-tier character.

[Lionel]

One could draw some plausible conclusions from mutual opponents that have been seen throughout Super. One example is the the mental image sparring Goku partook in in during the first chapter of Super. What's interesting about that scene and the separate yet relevant subtext of the training is how Goku could visibly dispense with Perfect Cell, requiring little effort, and then lunge forward after Kid Buu in a confident yet determined state while regulated to the first form only. It offers some valuable credentials to the worthwhileness of solo image training if you follow the impression of Beerus arc Goku now being competitive with Buu in the SSJ form.

Further up the power ladder and two arcs later you now have a Super Saiyan who is putting Frost in his final form to shame but it's not completely one sided as Goku is having to defend and exert somewhat in order to be brought to heel. Piccolo afterwards is on the defensive and unable to really steer the course of the fight -- yet he's also causing Frost to exhaust himself in a battle of attrition which was the original intent. Fast forward to Vegeta challenging Frost and he seems to feel most comfortable putting the backstabber down with SSJ. What does that suggest about the necessity of Super Saiyan for handling this opponent whom Piccolo could at least wear down?

We don't have anything to entirely clarify just how much stronger Goku became between the Beerus and Universe 6 tournament arcs. Personally, I'm willing to go out on a limb and say that Piccolo may have at least equalled that same SSJ Goku from the Beerus arc. I'm inclined to thinking that he's stronger but the minimal interpretation is fine. Now with a more clear-cut benchmark we could say that U6 tournament arc Piccolo is on a level strong enough to challenge Kid Buu; that is if you take at face value SSJ Goku challenging the Majin in the image training.

Now cut away to the Tournament of Power arc. Our best common denominators are Frost and Hyssop. Piccolo was butting arms with the latter early on during the event. In the same chapter Frost also engages this opponent and is visibly under a great deal of exertion in withstanding Hyssop's attack. It should be noted that he had started to go all out at Freeza's encouragement. By the same chapter there was a brief interaction where SSJ Goku and Frost stood poised to fight. You would think that Frost might express some hesitation knowing this was the same form that trounced him in the previous tournament. Doesn't appear to be that way, though, right? Maybe Frost didn't have enough time to fully weigh in on his prospects. Freeza did quickly intervene and admit to Frost that he stood no chance against Goku. The tyrant is far more aware of Goku's abilities than Frost so that assessment doesn't surprise me.

With more or less similar reactions to the same opponent, I think Piccolo may have become a contender against Frost as of the TOP arc. If Frost wasn't quivering in his nonexistent shoes at the idea of fighting the same opponent who humiliated him before then we might be able to assume that the dreadful adversary was surpassed. Could it be argued that Piccolo did the same by proxy?

The Moro arc has the best and most thoroughly elaborated evidence for Piccolo. We see how after training for some time with Gohan that he's now rubbing shoulders with the Saiyan hybrid, charging Moro's right hand man in tandem, unleashing attacks of what could be presumed as being comparably charged attacks. Later on Piccolo seems to harbour some confidence in his ability to take Moro down with him in a kamikaze attack. You make of that what you will.

#17 -- the vaunted black horse fighter of the TOP who surprised everyone with his inexplicable progress (startling SSJ3 Goku) -- seemed to be left in the dust and was looking on in frustration as Piccolo and Gohan fought Saganbo. You have a lot of implications with this scene and broader cooperative viability of Piccolo with Gohan.

Has Piccolo surpassed most of the TOP characters? I don't believe most of them could take him as he is now except the blue and possibly red tier fighters. Everyone's opinion is going to be different, though.

[BWri]

Piccolo stomps everything in Z. It's not even close. He himself estimated that his own self destruct was enough to if not outright kill Moro inside his barrier was at least enough to harm him. Piccolo rarely ever overestimates himself, but especially not to this degree so I find his words to be valid. Even being able to do that to a 10th of Moro makes him untouchable in Z.

Then there's the fact that he knows his power better than everyone else, proving Goku wrong both in the anime and manga as in both versions he gave Frost a lot of trouble and Frost was deemed strong enough to warrant an automatic SSJ transformation from both Goku and Vegeta. The Piccolo downplay is pretty tiresome at this point but its to be expected.

My lowball for Piccolo is SSJ3 tier for current Goku and Vegeta which should be higher than Buu arc Vegetto IIRC, and SSG tier circa BoG and RoF. Feats and comparative scaling helps out a lot. He's grown a lot.

[Cipher]

The Moro arc has the best and most thoroughly elaborated evidence for Piccolo. We see how after training for some time with Gohan that he's now rubbing shoulders with the Saiyan hybrid, charging Moro's right hand man in tandem, unleashing attacks of what could be presumed as being comparably charged attacks. Later on Piccolo seems to harbour some confidence in his ability to take Moro down with him in a kamikaze attack. You make of that what you will.

#17 -- the vaunted black horse fighter of the TOP who surprised everyone with his inexplicable progress (startling SSJ3 Goku) -- seemed to be left in the dust and was looking on in frustration as Piccolo and Gohan fought Saganbo. You have a lot of implications with this scene and broader cooperative viability of Piccolo with Gohan.

If the depictions of partnered fighters during the battles against Saganbo and Moro are that meaningful, though, #18 should have caught up to #17, which seems like a ludicrous case to make.

Sometimes it's just being flashy, and in-universe, even with a large difference in power, two fighters in sync ought to be better than one.

[Psajdak]

Cell Jr. level.

[BWri]

The Moro arc has the best and most thoroughly elaborated evidence for Piccolo. We see how after training for some time with Gohan that he's now rubbing shoulders with the Saiyan hybrid, charging Moro's right hand man in tandem, unleashing attacks of what could be presumed as being comparably charged attacks. Later on Piccolo seems to harbour some confidence in his ability to take Moro down with him in a kamikaze attack. You make of that what you will.

#17 -- the vaunted black horse fighter of the TOP who surprised everyone with his inexplicable progress (startling SSJ3 Goku) -- seemed to be left in the dust and was looking on in frustration as Piccolo and Gohan fought Saganbo. You have a lot of implications with this scene and broader cooperative viability of Piccolo with Gohan.

If the depictions of partnered fighters during the battles against Saganbo and Moro are that meaningful, though, #18 should have caught up to #17, which seems like a ludicrous case to make.

Sometimes it's just being flashy, and in-universe, even with a large difference in power, two fighters in sync ought to be better than one.

You have a point, as Jaco was also temporarily fighting alongside them, but Jaco was never depicted as having taken direct attacks from Saganbo or Moro, while #17, #18, Gohan and Piccolo have. And the fight itself has plenty of depictions of the overall power scaling amongst these 4 such as Piccolo and Gohan lasting far longer despite the Androids having infinite stamina while #17 and #18 were immobilized, and Shimo calling Gohan stronger than Piccolo. #18 is indeed fighting on par with #17 which would imply a massive power boost. Once in my life, I would have qualified this as a ridiculous jump in power, but we live in a post Dragon Ball Super world where any power boost is a valid power boost and #18's would actually be moderate by DBS standards.

What's more, combat partnerships only work well in DB when the partners are close in power, otherwise the weaker one is always considered "in the way" when it comes to head to head fighting. The partnership of Piccolo and Gohan during the anime version of the T.O.P. works how you described. Piccolo, being too outclassed to compete against the FP Namekians was relegated to charging his SBC while Gohan took to the frontlines himself. Manga Piccolo is not treated the same way, indicating that he is very close to Gohan in power and likely superior to both Androids at this current point. I think that last point is the only one that's debateable.

[Lionel]

The Moro arc has the best and most thoroughly elaborated evidence for Piccolo. We see how after training for some time with Gohan that he's now rubbing shoulders with the Saiyan hybrid, charging Moro's right hand man in tandem, unleashing attacks of what could be presumed as being comparably charged attacks. Later on Piccolo seems to harbour some confidence in his ability to take Moro down with him in a kamikaze attack. You make of that what you will.

#17 -- the vaunted black horse fighter of the TOP who surprised everyone with his inexplicable progress (startling SSJ3 Goku) -- seemed to be left in the dust and was looking on in frustration as Piccolo and Gohan fought Saganbo. You have a lot of implications with this scene and broader cooperative viability of Piccolo with Gohan.

If the depictions of partnered fighters during the battles against Saganbo and Moro are that meaningful, though, #18 should have caught up to #17, which seems like a ludicrous case to make.

Sometimes it's just being flashy, and in-universe, even with a large difference in power, two fighters in sync ought to be better than one.

BWri offers a good point about the parallel pain tolerances of Gohan and Piccolo when struck. A fighter has their limits depending on their strength and, to an extent, their physiology. Piccolo definitely seemed to be moving with punches that were affecting Gohan.

Relating to #18 -- in theory she should be able to equal #17. Both of them were genetically modified and have the same components implemented by Gero. How #17 became so powerful is a point of criticism to this day. What? Did he bench press the poachers' jeeps or something? #18 at least has a sparring partner in the form of her husband. I'm not particularly averse to them becoming equals in power.