I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by UI Peter » Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:07 am

After reading these last few chapters of the Moro saga and rereading the DBS manga as a whole, its dawned on me just how awful and unimaginative of a writer Toyotaro really is. Its like he has no real grasp of how to carry a plot or develop a character and often just imitates and repeats things from Z in a shallow way. When comparing his version of Super's arcs to the anime, he often starts out in a more interesting way but halfway makes things worse, especially the ToP arc. This guy is clearly not capable of carrying the franchise after Toriyama.

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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:29 am

I think it's time to admit our opinions don't really mean jackshit and the sands will continue to fall through the hourglass.

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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Xeogran » Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:34 am

I still like him for doing Vegetto Blue justice (and Final Kamehameha not ending in a smoke and literally nothing). I like him that he isn't afraid of violence in his fight and we can still see some holes and blood when it gets serious

But yeah, it's been pretty disappointing recently, especially the latest chapters where you know... he's rehashing Cell arc on our eyes...

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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:44 am

Actually I rather enjoyed the anime version of Vegito vs. Fused Zamasu. It's so, so, soooooo boring how every time the protagonists fuse in Dragon Ball, the villain always proceeds to get stomped. So cliché. I'm glad that Toei had Zamasu put up a very decent fight. You could say that is a good example of subverted expectations.
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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Cipher » Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:20 am

Not going to stop anyone from having an opinion on one version of Super or the other, but I am ... pretty baffled by propping up the anime and putting down the manga specifically on a shared criteria of "repeating things from Z in a shallow way" as a negative.

Were we watching the same Super anime?

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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Kataphrut » Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:53 am

Cipher wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:20 am
Not going to stop anyone from having an opinion on one version of Super or the other, but I am ... pretty baffled by propping up the anime and putting down the manga specifically on a shared criteria of "repeating things from Z in a shallow way" as a negative.

Were we watching the same Super anime?
Rehashing things isn't great by any means, but I only remember the anime doing it for certain scenes- Vegeta's Final Explosion in the Tournament of Power for example, which was easily the worst it got. But copying whole plot points is on a different level, and that's what Toyotaro has been doing throughout most of the Moro arc.

It's saying something that the Broly movie felt more original even though that was based off three existing movies.

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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Cipher » Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:07 am

Kataphrut wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:53 am
Rehashing things isn't great by any means, but I only remember the anime doing it for certain scenes- Vegeta's Final Explosion in the Tournament of Power for example, which was easily the worst it got. But copying whole plot points is on a different level, and that's what Toyotaro has been doing throughout most of the Moro arc.

It's saying something that the Broly movie felt more original even though that was based off three existing movies.
Vegeta's Final Flash against Magetta... Pulling out the Genki Dama for Jiren... Freeza is practically a Namek arc clipshow for the final fourth of the Tournament of Power... Kame-sennin's entire shtick at the tournament revolving around the Mafuba...

It's not worth weeding through every example in every episode, but the Super anime is littered with surface-level callbacks to the original run, in moments both big and small, where they fit and where they don't.

I certainly agree that the Moro arc is out to recapture a vintage DB feel in some rather direct ways that the Toriyama-helmed Super arcs were wholly uninterested in, but that's a conceptual difference rather than one related to anime/manga execution. In practice, Toei was certainly out to shove nostalgic references into plots unconcerned with them wherever they could. Toyotaro gets some in too, in the same arcs, but most are simply the result of panel references (excluding the few that feel like deliberate homages to big moments to be recognized).

At any rate, if the difference is clarified from being a "manga-anime" one to a "Toriyama-helmed Super arcs vs. Moro arc" one, I hear it.

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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Jiren The Alpha » Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:33 am

I knew that form the start, people defend him because he writes for Dragon Ball.
Without DB the fans would be able see how bad he is.

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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Thani » Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:01 am

Yeah, I agree with what Cipher said here. My main gripe with Toyotaro is not that he likes to pull of from other arcs, since the anime does that as well. Both have their share of problems, after all.

My main gripe with Toyo is that, when I compare his execution to the anime, I feel like he misses more than often. Mostly on the side of rushing things.
  • Battle of Gods was extremely short despite getting good.
  • They skipped RoF.
  • Champa was doomed to fail in the U6 Tournament not because of the End of Z, but because even Hit would never have a chance against the god forms.
  • Black and Zamasu felt more like brutes and less like someone who would have thought of the Zero Mortal Plan, with Black being the worst of the two - and Fused Zamasu being the combination of the worst aspects of them, which thematically makes sense, but still.
  • The recruitment to the Tournament of Power was subpar, the GoD Battle Royale happened mostly offscreen when it was getting good (again, thematically appropriate with the message Toyo was trying to pass).
  • Most of the Tournament was a rushed mess with none of the expected highlights.
  • The Kefla vs Gohan fight was awful, with both Gohan and Kefla being hyped to high heaven and in the end the fight happening entirely offscreen.
  • And finally, the fight against Jiren was okay until the penultimate chapter. That's when Jiren's personality completely breaks for no reason (even before he begins getting pressured by UI Goku) in a fight that's simply badly made. Like Toyotaro just wanted to get it over with.
  • The final chapter of the ToP IS actually the best of the arc. Jiren, already battered and bruised, is understandably broken emotionally. This Jiren is the one who should be chatty and angry.
The Moro arc, on the other hand, is going on a nice pace. Toyo isn't rushing it, even if it's somewhat rough around the edges. And with it's fair share of mistakes (remember when Moro couldn't sense Merus' ki and postures that he's probably a deity? So how could he quantify how good of a meal both Goku and Vegeta could be, if he can't sense their ki in the god forms as well?)

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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by GodVegetto91 » Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:26 am

The only thing “terrible” about his writing is that he doesn’t give Vegeta Ultra Instinct...!😡

I don’t care about Goku’s character. He has perfected Ultra Instinct now. So I’m beyond happy and you won’t hear me complain about any “dumb” decision he might come up with.

We’re saved. We can breathe easy now.

Now lets just hope Vegeta gets UI aswell!🙏
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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Matches Malone » Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:26 am

Cipher wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:20 am
I am ... pretty baffled by propping up the anime and putting down the manga specifically on a shared criteria of "repeating things from Z in a shallow way" as a negative.

Were we watching the same Super anime?
I'm also surprised of people calling out the manga for things the anime also does, sometimes even worse. When it comes to Toyotaro, I've been a very vocal supporter of him, but at this point even I have to admit he's not doing a good job. With the exception of the BOG movie, Modern DB as a whole has been a train wreck, and Toyotaro isn't the only one to blame for it.

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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Kinokima » Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:30 am

I think Toyo deserves criticism for what is happening in the latest chapter and the finale of the arc has been disappointing to me to say the least. But people definitely seem to ignore the anime’s many faults when criticizing the manga. I also still think the hatred for Toyo is really overblown.

Personally I find both the Super manga and anime average. Both have had some really good moments, episodes and chapters but they all seem to flub it when it comes to bringing everything together in the end. The only arc’s ending I enjoyed was the U6 one.

Would I be interested in Super (anime or manga) if I wasn’t a Dragon Ball fan to begin with? Of course not. But both the anime and manga keep my interest enough as a Dragon Ball fan. It’s fun to spend time with the characters again. I wish Super was so much better than it is. But I also don’t think it’s as horrible as some people make out. If I really thought so I would stop watching/reading. That’s what I did with the X-Files another series I deeply loved but I just cannot stand what they did with the series when it came back.




I also agree that Battle of Gods film was the best thing to come out of Modern Dragon Ball. Well that and The Reincarnation of Yamcha manga. Also Shintani’s new character designs (but we barely got to enjoy them).

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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by FortuneSSJ » Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:13 pm

He's average.
A world without Dragon Ball is just meh.

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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by UI Peter » Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:35 pm

Just so you guys know, I didn't intend this thread to be a Super anime vs Super manga debate thread (I don't think either version of Super is particularly good overall btw), just merely pointing out how bad of a writer Toyotaro is generally.

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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by theherodjl » Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:40 pm

While Toyotaro might be stretching this latest arc a little too long for my taste, his work so far has been decent for a doujin-artist-turned-Dragonball-author. He might need a character/story correction from Toriyama every now & then but even Toriyama says he's mostly happy with Toyotaro taking the reins.
Its very easy to be a critic when you're not the one who not only has to write a widely-publicated story but also draw it up and then have it all finished by a set date each month.
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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Skar » Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:50 pm

UI Peter wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:07 am
This guy is clearly not capable of carrying the franchise after Toriyama.
I would say no one would be able is carry the franchise after Toriyama. The old movies and GT had the advantage of being writing by staff who worked on the original series but not much would come close to peak Toriyama in my opinion.

I think Toriyama is past his prime and his current ideas are hit or miss but it's probably better than what we would get without him. There's an emphasis on fan service and callbacks because this is a revival but we might not get much else if Toei or Toyotaro continue on the their own.

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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:36 pm

To make it brief: I have no intention of "admitting" what I don't believe is true.

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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by In Brightest Day » Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:51 pm

Cipher wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:20 am
Not going to stop anyone from having an opinion on one version of Super or the other, but I am ... pretty baffled by propping up the anime and putting down the manga specifically on a shared criteria of "repeating things from Z in a shallow way" as a negative.

Were we watching the same Super anime?
Both are bad.

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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Dbzfan94 » Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:02 pm

It’s not so much admitting, but repeating. I’ve disliked the manga and Toyotaro’s writing for a long time

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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Kataphrut » Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:47 pm

Cipher wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:07 am
Kataphrut wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:53 am
Rehashing things isn't great by any means, but I only remember the anime doing it for certain scenes- Vegeta's Final Explosion in the Tournament of Power for example, which was easily the worst it got. But copying whole plot points is on a different level, and that's what Toyotaro has been doing throughout most of the Moro arc.

It's saying something that the Broly movie felt more original even though that was based off three existing movies.
Vegeta's Final Flash against Magetta... Pulling out the Genki Dama for Jiren... Freeza is practically a Namek arc clipshow for the final fourth of the Tournament of Power... Kame-sennin's entire shtick at the tournament revolving around the Mafuba...

It's not worth weeding through every example in every episode, but the Super anime is littered with surface-level callbacks to the original run, in moments both big and small, where they fit and where they don't.

I certainly agree that the Moro arc is out to recapture a vintage DB feel in some rather direct ways that the Toriyama-helmed Super arcs were wholly uninterested in, but that's a conceptual difference rather than one related to anime/manga execution. In practice, Toei was certainly out to shove nostalgic references into plots unconcerned with them wherever they could. Toyotaro gets some in too, in the same arcs, but most are simply the result of panel references (excluding the few that feel like deliberate homages to big moments to be recognized).

At any rate, if the difference is clarified from being a "manga-anime" one to a "Toriyama-helmed Super arcs vs. Moro arc" one, I hear it.
Again, you’re talking about moments vs entire plot points. Most of those examples are inconsequential (Vegeta vs Magetta) or were used to set up something original (the Genki Dama on Jiren triggering Ultra Instinct). Both versions indulge in nostalgia-bait moments, but the Moro arc has gone way beyond that. It started out as a rehash of Namek with a Piccolo villain and Buu backstory, it went Resurrection F for a while when Moro invaded Earth and it’s climax has been Cell/Buu levels of goalpost shifting for a while now.

I think that’s the real reason people have become so frustrated with Toyotaro- he’s just dragging out the ending while bringing very little new to the table. The Goku healing Moro thing is the latest, most egregious example of that. I personally wonder if he might be dealing with some outside pressure to keep the story going- like the higher ups don’t want him to end it until they have the next movie or TV show in the bag or something. That’s genuinely what it feels like.

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