I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:38 pm

Block88 wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:08 pm

It’s quite telling people has to defend super low quality by bringing up Z flaws as if that’s supposed to make it okay
I'm just pointing out the double standard that people only have a problem with those "flaws" when they're present in Super, and they gloss over them in Z with their nostalgia goggles.

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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by UI Peter » Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:09 pm

UpFromTheSkies wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:21 pm
UI Peter wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:02 pm
How do you explain the fact that even people who didn't grow up with Z think Super is a worse series?
Maybe because it's trendy to think Super is inferior to the rest of the series? The only area of Super that I think is inferior is the quality and art style of the TV anime, the original looks a lot better, but the original story has all the same "problems" as Super
And just because something doesn't take itself seriously (nevermind that DB itself started to get somewhat more serious since the King Piccolo arc, and that Z in general is more dramatic/serious than Super on average) doesn't mean its above criticism and standards of quality. And just because something is for kids doesn't mean its okay for it to be low quality.
It's not above criticism, but it should be criticized for what it is, a kids comic.

Even Toriyama knew the story was ridiculous, look at the Gotenks chapters, they are basically Toriyama poking fun at his own managa.
- The fact that you put "problems" in quotes suggests you have no real standards for whats good or bad and are using bad faith arguments defend Super. And no, Super doesn't get that much hate compared to GT so that argument fails too.

And the main point of my argument was that folks with no attachment to the DB franchise who've watched/read both Z and Super generally see Super as being worse.

- Even if the original series has most of the same issues, its not even close to the same degree as Super has them. Pointing out flaws in the original/Z in order to defend Super doesn't help your case.

- "Even Toriyama knew the story was ridiculous, look at the Gotenks chapters, they are basically Toriyama poking fun at his own managa."

This is just another variation of the "don't take it seriously" and the "its for kids" argument in order to deflect criticism. Just because something is deliberately silly doesn't mean its above standards for quality. That's why even Toriyama was pissed off about DB Evolution.

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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by UI Peter » Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:13 pm

Block88 wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:08 pm
Hellspawn28 wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:31 pm
Toriyama was far from being perfect too. His writing was never consistent as well.
And ya pint is?
No one said AT was perfect I’ve seen folks criticize the decisions made in the Android/Cell and Buu saga way before Super was a thing
And still his writing from back then still shits on what we’re getting now
UI Peter wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:02 pm
UpFromTheSkies wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:24 pm
I think some people expect too much from Dragon Ball, they are remembering the original story through the eyes of their childhood selves and are imagining it to be much better than it was, when it reality it wasn't serious and was full of inconsistencies, retcons and general ridiculousness. Super isn't any different, you're just an adult now and expect more from a story.
This nostalgia argument has been debunked numerous times and it ignores the main point of criticism of Super: that its objectively worse (on average) in almost all ways than much of what came before.

How do you explain the fact that even people who didn't grow up with Z think Super is a worse series?

And just because something doesn't take itself seriously (nevermind that DB itself started to get somewhat more serious since the King Piccolo arc, and that Z in general is more dramatic/serious than Super on average) doesn't mean its above criticism and standards of quality. And just because something is for kids doesn't mean its okay for it to be low quality.
It’s quite telling people has to defend super low quality by bringing up Z flaws as if that’s supposed to make it okay
Exactly. In fact, it makes Super look even worse because it shows that Toriyama hasn't learned from his mistakes after all this time.

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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:25 am

UI Peter wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:09 pm
UpFromTheSkies wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:21 pm
UI Peter wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:02 pm
How do you explain the fact that even people who didn't grow up with Z think Super is a worse series?
Maybe because it's trendy to think Super is inferior to the rest of the series? The only area of Super that I think is inferior is the quality and art style of the TV anime, the original looks a lot better, but the original story has all the same "problems" as Super
And just because something doesn't take itself seriously (nevermind that DB itself started to get somewhat more serious since the King Piccolo arc, and that Z in general is more dramatic/serious than Super on average) doesn't mean its above criticism and standards of quality. And just because something is for kids doesn't mean its okay for it to be low quality.
It's not above criticism, but it should be criticized for what it is, a kids comic.

Even Toriyama knew the story was ridiculous, look at the Gotenks chapters, they are basically Toriyama poking fun at his own managa.
- The fact that you put "problems" in quotes suggests you have no real standards for whats good or bad and are using bad faith arguments defend Super. And no, Super doesn't get that much hate compared to GT so that argument fails too.

And the main point of my argument was that folks with no attachment to the DB franchise who've watched/read both Z and Super generally see Super as being worse.

- Even if the original series has most of the same issues, its not even close to the same degree as Super has them. Pointing out flaws in the original/Z in order to defend Super doesn't help your case.

- "Even Toriyama knew the story was ridiculous, look at the Gotenks chapters, they are basically Toriyama poking fun at his own managa."

This is just another variation of the "don't take it seriously" and the "its for kids" argument in order to deflect criticism.
My point is that your criticizing the story by holding it to standards that it was never intended to meet. It would be like saying Toriyama's art is trash because it's not as detailed and realistic as classical art.
To judge art fairly you need to consider the intention of the artist, and the intention behind Dragon Ball is to be exciting and enjoyable to children and to sell toys, and it does those things very well. It's not intended to be a deep, well thought out story for people to pick a part and analyze.
Just because something is deliberately silly doesn't mean its above standards for quality. That's why even Toriyama was pissed off about DB Evolution.
Right, but he wasn't pissed off about Evolution because there were inconsistencies in the story, but because it was a very poor representation of Dragon Ball.

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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Ziegander » Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:15 am

Not joining whatever the above argument is, just adding my own two cents:

Oh, riiiiiight, it's not titled Goku, the Earthling because of any sort of referential, self-reflection, deeper-thinking on Goku's part, or of the series' in general... it's titled Goku, the Earthling because this mother f**ker is not literally fighting a bad guy that IS the earth. LOL! That's f**king BRILLIANT!
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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Matches Malone » Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:20 am

UpFromTheSkies wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:09 pm
I think a lot more people would enjoy Super if they would just look at it for what it is and stop having such high expectations.
If you have to lower your expectations to enjoy it, doesn't that prove people's point about how flawed it is ? I don't see anyone saying this about other shonen, including the original DB run.

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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Femme Fatale Kikaza » Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:34 am

I think they need better writers in general, like this arc is painful. Like why are they writing Goku like he has the IQ of Kid Buu? Just defuse Moro and end him immediately so we can leave. Nonsensical power ups for Moro, angelic sacrifice that accomplishes little if anything and wasn't written that well. Honestly I don't understand where Moro got this power to merge with the planet, seems like they are just giving him abilities at the drop of a hat.

Vegeta just has to defuse him and have Moro be killed afterwards so we can move on.
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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:35 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:20 am
UpFromTheSkies wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:09 pm
I think a lot more people would enjoy Super if they would just look at it for what it is and stop having such high expectations.
If you have to lower your expectations to enjoy it, doesn't that prove people's point about how flawed it is ?
If you listen to AC/DC expecting the comlpexity and depth of classical music and are disappointed, that doesn't mean AC/DC is flawed
I don't see anyone saying this about other shonen, including the original DB run.
I've said it to people who like anime but think shonen in general is trash. You have to judge it for what it is, you can't hold it to the same standards as Ghibli films.

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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:59 am

Femme Fatale Kikaza wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:34 am
I think they need better writers in general, like this arc is painful. Like why are they writing Goku like he has the IQ of Kid Buu?
Goku has always been a naive idiot. He let go of Radditz tail, told Krilin to spare Vegeta, gave energy to a dying Freeza on Namek, gave Cell a senzu bean, held back against Majin Vegeta, and tried to bring out the good side of Buu when he could have easily finished him off with SS3.
Just defuse Moro and end him immediately so we can leave. Nonsensical power ups for Moro, angelic sacrifice that accomplishes little if anything and wasn't written that well. Honestly I don't understand where Moro got this power to merge with the planet, seems like they are just giving him abilities at the drop of a hat.
Literally all of Z was full of nonsensical powers ups, ass pulls and prolonged battles.

Those nostalgia goggles sure are powerful, huh?

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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Matches Malone » Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:14 am

UpFromTheSkies wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:35 am
You have to judge it for what it is, you can't hold it to the same standards as Ghibli films.
I am judging it for what it is, a Shonen, and it still doesn't live up to the standards set by the genre and its predecessors.
UpFromTheSkies wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:59 am
Literally all of Z was full of nonsensical powers ups, ass pulls and prolonged battles.

Those nostalgia goggles sure are powerful, huh?
Z and basically every other shonen have them, so that's not the issue, but rather how it's being handled in Super.

You can stop mentioning this now, we get it, we're all blinded by nostalgia. If the original was this bad it wouldn't have blown up the way it did and influenced countless mangaka to get into the profession. Is Super influencing anyone ? If the original was just a nostalgic show, why are new fans getting into it to this very day ? How many people in 20+ years are going to look back at Super as something worth getting into ?

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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:40 am

Matches Malone wrote: If the original was this bad it wouldn't have blown up the way it did and influenced countless mangaka to get into the profession.
Super has been just as successful if not more so than the original series, and you can't credit its sucess solely to having the Dragon Ball name and characters because if that's all that were needed for success then GT wouldn't have flopped.
Is Super influencing anyone ?
I dont know, I dont see any reason why it wouldn't be, but I guess we'll have to wait 15 years and see if some mangaka specifically mentions Super as being an influence on them.

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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Matches Malone » Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:52 am

UpFromTheSkies wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:40 am

You can't credit its success solely to having the Dragon Ball name and characters because if that's all that were needed for success then GT wouldn't have flopped.

Super has been just as successful if not more so than the original series.
If a new product with no name recognition was as sloppy as Super's been, it'd be lucky if it lasted a fraction of the time Super's been around. When it comes to GT, there are multiple interviews from the staff implying it was intended to be short from the start, such as Toriyama himself stating the intention was to keep DB going "for a bit longer". It obviously wasn't as successful as what came before, but it didn't outright fail either. Its dragon box and singles sales were the highest of the 3 anime, so there's that to go on.

More ? are you serious ? This is objectively false.
I dont know, I dont see any reason why it wouldn't be, but I guess we'll have to wait 15 years and see if some mangaka specifically mentions Super as being an influence on them.
I'll give you one reason why that will never happen, because whoever says it's their influence while pitching a story will see their career crash and burn before they know what happened. Attack on titan, My hero academia, Demon Slayer, etc... are what will be cited as influences for the next gen of mangaka, not this joke of a sequel.

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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:05 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:44 am
Actually I rather enjoyed the anime version of Vegito vs. Fused Zamasu. It's so, so, soooooo boring how every time the protagonists fuse in Dragon Ball, the villain always proceeds to get stomped. So cliché. I'm glad that Toei had Zamasu put up a very decent fight. You could say that is a good example of subverted expectations.
Indeed. One sided fights are simply not fun to see. Seeing Vegetto struggle was very nice.

And yes, it is known since the Black arc that Toyo is a hack. Sad times ahead if he gets more influence on the series. Hopefully Toei ignores his nonsense when they return.

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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Matches Malone » Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:13 am

ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:05 am
Sad times ahead if he gets more influence on the series. Hopefully Toei ignores his nonsense when they return.
Not only is he more or less going to be the head writer moving forward, he went as far as to say he'll be working with Toei on the anime as well. Whether or not that's a bad thing depends on not only how he concludes the current arc, but what he does with the next one as well. I've been a big supporter of him, but this latest chapter has really made me rethink that.

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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:15 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:13 am
he went as far as to say he'll be working with Toei on the anime as well.
Source?

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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Matches Malone » Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:23 am

ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:15 am
Source?
It was said in one of the volumes that released around the time the anime was ending. He said although the anime was ahead and he answered to them, things would be reversed in the future. I'm paraphrasing but that's more or less what was said.

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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Skar » Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:42 am

UpFromTheSkies wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:40 am
I dont know, I dont see any reason why it wouldn't be, but I guess we'll have to wait 15 years and see if some mangaka specifically mentions Super as being an influence on them.
To be honest, I don't see that happening. A revival is to celebrate a popular series which is why we get so much fan service and callbacks and many of them feel derivative of the original work. Arguing about nostalgia is kind of a moot point because nostalgia is a major reason why a studio would consider reviving a classic series in the first place. Toei was pretty honest about wanting the series to help sales and only proceeding with Toriyama since it's obvious it wouldn't perform as well without the original author involved.

I haven't seen DBS rank highly among modern anime. Even if we only consider DB inspired shonen titles, it wouldn't compare to most of them. I haven't watched many of them but from general anime fans I've heard that series like that One Piece, Naruto, HxH, etc were inspired by DB but tried to avoid some of its problems. DBS kinda goes in the opposite direction of continuing the same problems and sometimes taking them to more ridiculous extremes. The most common argument I hear for DBS is "well the original did something similar so it's only as bad as the absolute worst writing the series has ever had". You don't hear this argument for good sequels because they try to overcome issues that don't benefit the story not look for excuses to keep repeating them. DBS is "good enough" for me as a huge DB fan but I can't argue with a straight face that it compares to any above average anime I've seen in the last few years.

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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Lord Frieza » Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:31 am

My personal problem with the franchise in its current state is that it doesn’t change in the ways that matter.

Super’s story arcs have mean fun and interesting ideas, characters etc, but the core story telling is starting to get boring. At their cores the Black and Moro arcs Feel similar to the Cell and Buu arcs and suffer from many of the same problems. The two tournament arcs are restricted by the self imposed limits of Dragon Ball story telling as they are not willing to take real risks or branch out.

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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Lord Frieza » Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:33 am

The only things Super has done that’s of any real note, I.e. has stayed with me long after the fact are the Black arc and Frieza’s inclusion for the Tournament of Power.

For all it’s Flaws the Black arc had a great mystery and great villains. Zamasu’s near victory and the complete destruction of Trunks’ timeline is by far the most note worth plot point in the series for me. As much as many hate it, it’s got a lasting gut punch that most of super lacks and it one of the free times Dragon Ball breaks its long and over used safety net of just fixing everything with Dragon Balls.

Frieza’s inclusion in the Tournament of Power was in the end the one of the few unpredictable aspect of that story, and his team up with Goku at the end was truly great.

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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:51 am

Lord Frieza wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:33 am
The only things Super has done that’s of any real note, I.e. has stayed with me long after the fact are the Black arc and Frieza’s inclusion for the Tournament of Power.

For all it’s Flaws the Black arc had a great mystery and great villains. Zamasu’s near victory and the complete destruction of Trunks’ timeline is by far the most note worth plot point in the series for me. As much as many hate it, it’s got a lasting gut punch that most of super lacks and it one of the free times Dragon Ball breaks its long and over used safety net of just fixing everything with Dragon Balls.

Frieza’s inclusion in the Tournament of Power was in the end the one of the few unpredictable aspect of that story, and his team up with Goku at the end was truly great.
Fans of this show are used to happy endings where the Dragon Balls bring back everyone, so I understand why many would be angry that an arc ends in a bleak and tragic way. This is one of if not the most underrated ending in the franchise, not enough people appreciate how the villain technically won for once.
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