I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

[SupremeKai25]

If all I'm going to get is fan service I might as well just watch the original material they're basing it off of.

I'm not saying doing ONLY fan-service is alright, but there's nothing wrong with doing fan-service once in a while, especially if it's well-written or just very fitting thematically.

I hope this doesn't have to be reminded, but Super doesn't do ONLY fan-service. It would be a grave mistake to claim that. Super has created tons of original characters that have become very iconic. Some are beloved, others are controversial (probably because the writers didn't want to cave into fans' demands), regardless they are new unique characters.

That's debatable. I'd argue that maybe Goku Black, but that's just another Goku. Jiren? Eh. And even with this "highly iconic"characters, it's still using them in familiar situations that DB has done so many times before in the past. Hey you want another Tournment arc? Oh we got you some tournament arcs. Hey wanna go back to the Future Trunk timeline? FUCK YEAH we got that too. Making 17 GOAT because why not? Dragon Ball Super's entire existence depends on your nostalgia for DBZ. As someone who dislikes a large majority of Super, there are moments that work for me. But that's only because it reminds me of moments in DBZ.

- Zamasu
- Goku Black (basically his own unique character, because Goku's personality starts to take over)
- Hit
- Jiren
- Broly (basically a new character)
- Toppo
- Caulifla
- Kale
- Kefla
- Zeno
- Beerus and Whis (Yes, I'm counting them, because BoG and RoF are basically part of Super storyline)

All of the aforementioned characters are iconic and popular. Perhaps some are more than others, regardless they are quite known in the overall anime fandom.

I'm not counting Moro and Merus because they've yet to appear on the big screen, but I'm sure they too will become very popular once the arc is animated and they are exposed to a much wider audience. Moro has a lot of power-ups and is generally "badass", that's enough for most people, so I foresee him becoming a popular villain.

[JulieYBM]

I’m not even sure what hypothetical game is being played in discussing whether a Dragon Ball Super that wasn’t a sequel to Dragon Ball would make it in weekly Jump.

The series is so wholly wrapped up in being a fluffy sequel—structurally, idealistically, tonally—that you’re essentially asking if a mystery hypothetical project by the same creative team would have hacked it. Super’s sequel status isn’t something that can be plucked out of it and leave us with even the shadow of anything concrete to discuss the merits of. The series’ terms are quite clear: This is more DB.

It’s like asking if The Shining would have succeeded if it were a comedy. What are we even discussing?

Especially since Boruto, if I'm not mistaken, is very unpopular and isn't doing well in sales, it was even dropped out of weekly jump. This is despite Boruto being the official sequel of Naruto Shippuden and supervised by Kishimoto himself. So it's not like Super had "everything handed to him" just because it's an official midquel of DBZ. Brand can only take you so far.

Boruto was only in JUMP as a temporary thing anyway. Its monthly release was always hiw it was meant to be, they simply ran it in the main magazine for the first arc--which was a remake of the film.

The cartoon is still running, too. Boruto isn't going anywhere.

[kemuri07]

I'm not saying doing ONLY fan-service is alright, but there's nothing wrong with doing fan-service once in a while, especially if it's well-written or just very fitting thematically.

I hope this doesn't have to be reminded, but Super doesn't do ONLY fan-service. It would be a grave mistake to claim that. Super has created tons of original characters that have become very iconic. Some are beloved, others are controversial (probably because the writers didn't want to cave into fans' demands), regardless they are new unique characters.

That's debatable. I'd argue that maybe Goku Black, but that's just another Goku. Jiren? Eh. And even with this "highly iconic"characters, it's still using them in familiar situations that DB has done so many times before in the past. Hey you want another Tournment arc? Oh we got you some tournament arcs. Hey wanna go back to the Future Trunk timeline? FUCK YEAH we got that too. Making 17 GOAT because why not? Dragon Ball Super's entire existence depends on your nostalgia for DBZ. As someone who dislikes a large majority of Super, there are moments that work for me. But that's only because it reminds me of moments in DBZ.

- Zamasu
- Goku Black (basically his own unique character, because Goku's personality starts to take over)
- Hit
- Jiren
- Broly (basically a new character)
- Toppo
- Caulifla
- Kale
- Kefla
- Zeno
- Beerus and Whis (Yes, I'm counting them, because BoG and RoF are basically part of Super storyline)

All of the aforementioned characters are iconic and popular. Perhaps some are more than others, regardless they are quite known in the overall anime fandom.

I'm not counting Moro and Merus because they've yet to appear on the big screen, but I'm sure they too will become very popular once the arc is animated and they are exposed to a much wider audience. Moro has a lot of power-ups and is generally "badass", that's enough for most people, so I foresee him becoming a popular villain.

No. Iconic? That's Vegeta or Piccolo. I'm sure all of those characters have their fans (but seriously, Zeno, Kale, Kefla? Seriously?), but no.None of them are iconic. Iconic is I can walk up to most people, utter the name Goku, and most people will have an idea who I'm talking about? Iconic is when aspects of the anime transcend that anime and even the medium to be culturally recognizable. Jiren? Zeno? Toppo? Nah. Not even close, man.

It's like Ubisoft brandishing the word iconic for its shitty games--it means nothing anymore. Just a buzzword you can throw around.

[SupremeKai25]

That's debatable. I'd argue that maybe Goku Black, but that's just another Goku. Jiren? Eh. And even with this "highly iconic"characters, it's still using them in familiar situations that DB has done so many times before in the past. Hey you want another Tournment arc? Oh we got you some tournament arcs. Hey wanna go back to the Future Trunk timeline? FUCK YEAH we got that too. Making 17 GOAT because why not? Dragon Ball Super's entire existence depends on your nostalgia for DBZ. As someone who dislikes a large majority of Super, there are moments that work for me. But that's only because it reminds me of moments in DBZ.

- Zamasu
- Goku Black (basically his own unique character, because Goku's personality starts to take over)
- Hit
- Jiren
- Broly (basically a new character)
- Toppo
- Caulifla
- Kale
- Kefla
- Zeno
- Beerus and Whis (Yes, I'm counting them, because BoG and RoF are basically part of Super storyline)

All of the aforementioned characters are iconic and popular. Perhaps some are more than others, regardless they are quite known in the overall anime fandom.

I'm not counting Moro and Merus because they've yet to appear on the big screen, but I'm sure they too will become very popular once the arc is animated and they are exposed to a much wider audience. Moro has a lot of power-ups and is generally "badass", that's enough for most people, so I foresee him becoming a popular villain.

No. Iconic? That's Vegeta or Piccolo. I'm sure all of those characters have their fans (but seriously, Zeno, Kale, Kefla? Seriously?), but no.None of them are iconic. Iconic is I can walk up to most people, utter the name Goku, and most people will have an idea who I'm talking about? Iconic is when aspects of the anime transcend aspects of the anime and even the medium to be cultural recognizable. Jiren? Zeno? Toppo? Nah. Not even close, man.

Have you ever been in a VS. battles forum? I'm not part of one, but sometimes I read some VS. battles forum for fun, and Zeno is often brought up as one of the most powerful characters in anime. You don't need 30 years of screentime to become iconic. Zeno is already iconic by virtue of the fact that he can literally erase the entire multiverse. Not many anime characters can do that, which makes him stand out. Same thing for Jiren and Toppo. Jiren in particular has tons of memes in anime fandom and the fights between him and Goku were some of the most ground-breaking episodes in the franchise. Just google any live reaction to ep. 130-131 on youtube.

Kale and Kefla are very popular, I'm not sure what's so strange here. They have tons of fanarts and recognition in the fandom. Just listen to the live reactions to Kefla's reveal in Fighterz, the crowd went crazy.

Some people have always criticized Caulifla, Kale, and Kefla, calling them "Mary Sue", but very clearly they were just a very vocal minority. This is what the fandom really thinks of the girls: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY_iXxhidUc

[LoganForkHands73]

Have you ever been in a VS. battles forum? I'm not part of one, but sometimes I read some VS. battles forum for fun, and Zeno is often brought up as one of the most powerful characters in anime. You don't need 30 years of screentime to become iconic. Zeno is already iconic by virtue of the fact that he can literally erase the entire multiverse. Not many anime characters can do that, which makes him stand out. Same thing for Jiren and Toppo. Jiren in particular has tons of memes in anime fandom and the fights between him and Goku were some of the most ground-breaking episodes in the franchise. Just google any live reaction to ep. 130-131 on youtube.

Kale and Kefla are very popular, I'm not sure what's so strange here. They have tons of fanarts and recognition in the fandom. Just listen to the live reactions to Kefla's reveal in Fighterz, the crowd went crazy.

Some people have always criticized Caulifla, Kale, and Kefla, calling them "Mary Sue", but very clearly they were just a very vocal minority. This is what the fandom really thinks of the girls: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY_iXxhidUc

I can attest to this, I live in the middle of arse-end-nowhere and I've chatted to total strangers in bars about events and characters from Super. Seen references to it on just about every corner of the internet. Like it or not, the series has had a huge cultural impact. Need I reference the countless Ultra Instinct memes, the live theatrical showings of Goku vs. Jiren, the massive amounts of fanart of just about all the new characters (the U6 Saiyans, Goku Black and Broly are of course particular favourites).

[Thani]

Ultra Instinct Shaggy, anyone?

[JewyB]

Ultra Instinct Shaggy, anyone?

Some people on this forum genuinely believe that's the level of writing Toyo is.

[Thani]

Ultra Instinct Shaggy, anyone?

Some people on this forum genuinely believe that's the level of writing Toyo is.

Hahaha I don't personally like Toyo's style, but that's really going too far. The day his writing skills get to the same level of self-parody (like UI Shaggy and Gohan Calvo Blanco) is the day he should really consider retiring.

[SupremeKai25]

Ultra Instinct Shaggy, anyone?

Some people on this forum genuinely believe that's the level of writing Toyo is.

Hahaha I don't personally like Toyo's style, but that's really going too far. The day his writing skills get to the same level of self-parody (like UI Shaggy and Gohan Calvo Blanco) is the day he should really consider retiring.

You're wrong. I predict that El Grande Padre will overthrow Zeno in the next arc, and only the chosen one Gohan Blanco will be able to stop him. There will also be a subplot revolving around Jiren seeking revenge against El Hermano.

I have no idea where these memes come from, but they are funny so oh well.

[Psajdak]

No one really cares about Kuririn, Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Piccolo, or even Gohan these days.

Iconic, or not, they just don't compare to the likes of Jiren, U6 girls, Goku Black, and some other DBS characters when it comes to popularity.

[Gt91]

No one really cares about Kuririn, Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Piccolo, or even Gohan these days.

Iconic, or not, they just don't compare to the likes of Jiren, U6 girls, Goku Black, and some other DBS characters when it comes to popularity.

That's your opinion, and that's fine.
I personally still like them, and i was happy to see them in action again. Of couse new characters are always welcome.


About this topic, i think there is to much hate towards Toyotaro, sometime without a good reason (people see leaks and think to know everything without reading the full chapter, that's not the best you know).
He's not perfect, i know, but every month i read the same things over and over. There are a lot of childish attitudes, even form "older" fans.
There is a lot of pressure on Toyo. We are talking about Dragon ball, not a simple manga, and he's doing his best. People always see the worst and not the best from his work. I mean, it's not trash, c'mon. There are a lot of good ideas in this arc too.
There is a pandemic as well, people should me more grateful to have a manga every month without pauses.
That's my opinion. Peace.

[kemuri07]

No one really cares about Kuririn, Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Piccolo, or even Gohan these days.

Iconic, or not, they just don't compare to the likes of Jiren, U6 girls, Goku Black, and some other DBS characters when it comes to popularity.

Yep. No one cares about them--which is why they keep bringing them back in a variety of media. I mean, shit the entire reason why people were excited about the later tournament arcs in Super was precisely because they. were bringing back legacy characters back. People give a shit about Z characters waaay more than anyone on Super.


And again, none of those characters are iconic. Sure, people like those characters and they're popular to have their fans--none of that makes them iconic. DBZ is iconic because its created moments that are not only well remembered within the anime community, but constantly replicated in other mediums. I can't count the number of western cartoons or rap songs that specifically mention or parody characters and moments from Z.

People like Super but it's not ever going to have the cultural reach of Dragon Ball or Z because it will always be known as fanservice. That's all it is.

[Kagari]

No one really cares about Kuririn, Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Piccolo, or even Gohan these days.

Iconic, or not, they just don't compare to the likes of Jiren, U6 girls, Goku Black, and some other DBS characters when it comes to popularity.

This post couldn't be more wrong. Gohan and Piccolo are in the top 3 and 4 characters spots consistently even today Kuririn and Yamcha especially are still very popular as well. You shouldn't underestimate the power of the original cast, they're here to stay.

No one introduced in Super even compares to those guys. Sure they have bubbles of fan groups but the original cast has 30 years to stand on.

[precita]

At the same time most of the older characters are popular due to being around 30+ years and nostalgia. Of course characters only around for 2 years won't be as popular. Beerus and Whis have been around since 2013 and they've definitely become pretty much as popular as the classic characters.

In a few years time if Caulifa/Kale or the others stick around, it might be the same for them. Zamasu is also pretty well received as a villain.

[Kagari]

At the same time most of the older characters are popular due to being around 30+ years and nostalgia. Of course characters only around for 2 years won't be as popular. Beerus and Whis have been around since 2013 and they've definitely become pretty much as popular as the classic characters.

In a few years time if Caulifa/Kale or the others stick around, it might be the same for them. Zamasu is also pretty well received as a villain.

Generally not, actually. And Zamasu ranked really low on a Japanese poll done in VJump a year or so ago.

[SupremeKai25]

At the same time most of the older characters are popular due to being around 30+ years and nostalgia. Of course characters only around for 2 years won't be as popular. Beerus and Whis have been around since 2013 and they've definitely become pretty much as popular as the classic characters.

In a few years time if Caulifa/Kale or the others stick around, it might be the same for them. Zamasu is also pretty well received as a villain.

Generally not, actually. And Zamasu ranked really low on a Japanese poll done in VJump a year or so ago.

Do you mean this poll from 2018?

The most popular antagonists per V-Jump's poll.[1]

Frieza: 19.8%
Broly: 15.4%
Jiren: 13.2%
Goku Black: 10.5%
Majin Buu: 6.9%
Hit: 6.7%
King Piccolo: 6.3%
Cell: 5.6%
Fused Zamasu: 2.7%
Syn Shenron: 1.9%
Cooler: 1.6%
Turles: 1.5%
Baby: 0.7%
Zamasu: 0.5%
Bojack: 0.4%

Other antagonists made up 6.2% of the poll's total.

In that case, Zamasu would actually rank very high. The thing about Zamasu is that we might distinguish between Goku Black, Immortal Zamasu, and Fused Zamasu, but ultimately they are the same character, the same person. So, if that list only had one version of Zamasu (as with every other villain there), in total he would've gotten 13.7% of the votes in that poll, which would put him in third place between Broly and Jiren, and above all original villains except Frieza and Broly.

[Kagari]

At the same time most of the older characters are popular due to being around 30+ years and nostalgia. Of course characters only around for 2 years won't be as popular. Beerus and Whis have been around since 2013 and they've definitely become pretty much as popular as the classic characters.

In a few years time if Caulifa/Kale or the others stick around, it might be the same for them. Zamasu is also pretty well received as a villain.

Generally not, actually. And Zamasu ranked really low on a Japanese poll done in VJump a year or so ago.

Do you mean this poll from 2018?

The most popular antagonists per V-Jump's poll.[1]

Frieza: 19.8%
Broly: 15.4%
Jiren: 13.2%
Goku Black: 10.5%
Majin Buu: 6.9%
Hit: 6.7%
King Piccolo: 6.3%
Cell: 5.6%
Fused Zamasu: 2.7%
Syn Shenron: 1.9%
Cooler: 1.6%
Turles: 1.5%
Baby: 0.7%
Zamasu: 0.5%
Bojack: 0.4%

Other antagonists made up 6.2% of the poll's total.

In that case, Zamasu would actually rank very high. The thing about Zamasu is that we might distinguish between Goku Black, Immortal Zamasu, and Fused Zamasu, but ultimately they are the same character, the same person. So, if that list only had one version of Zamasu (as with every other villain there), in total he would've gotten 13.7% of the votes in that poll, which would put him in third place between Broly and Jiren, and above all original villains except Frieza and Broly.

Most people look at Goku Black as a separate character and totally detached from "Zamasu" despite him being the body snatcher. The Goku Black version is popular, Zamasu in his original or merged version is not.

[SupremeKai25]

Most people look at Goku Black as a separate character and totally detached from "Zamasu" despite him being the body snatcher. The Goku Black version is popular, Zamasu in his original or merged version is not.

Again, that doesn't mean anything. The people who voted Black most likely loved Zamasu too, since they have the same ideals, goal, and backstory (Black even refers to himself as Zamasu), they simply chose their favourite form of the character. Likewise, the people who voted for the other forms of Zamasu most likely loved Black as well.

Do you think Cell or Frieza would have that many votes if the poll split them amongst forms?

It's logic. If a villain is split between 3 different incarnations, then naturally the total number of votes he got will be split in 3.

Regardless, I don't trust that poll. Cooler is so low on the list, yet he's very popular. He's often brought up as one of the villains who should be rebooted for Super, and plenty of people were very vocal to have him in Fighterz.

[LoganForkHands73]

Damn, surprised (though not dismayed) that Jiren ranked as high as he did on that poll.

[Skar]

In that case, Zamasu would actually rank very high. The thing about Zamasu is that we might distinguish between Goku Black, Immortal Zamasu, and Fused Zamasu, but ultimately they are the same character, the same person. So, if that list only had one version of Zamasu (as with every other villain there), in total he would've gotten 13.7% of the votes in that poll, which would put him in third place between Broly and Jiren, and above all original villains except Frieza and Broly.

Is there a more recent poll? Being popular shortly after their arc ends isn't the same as being iconic years later. There's also a difference between being popular among DB fans and among the overall anime community since I'm pretty sure only the original villains show up on popularity polls that include other major shonen titles. After the initial hype dies down, it's common for fans to revisit something and not considering it aging that well or not as good as they originally thought. I'm not saying this only applies to DBS but literally any new product. To be considered iconic or a classic, they have to stand the test of time.

I'm not sure why popularity should matter in this thread though. Does it validate liking a certain character if a bunch of other people also like them? Two of my favorite Z movies were Dead Zone and The World's Strongest. Garlic Jr and Dr. Wheelo aren't showing up on any popularity poll so should my opinion about them change?