I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

Mad Swami
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 879
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:01 am

Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Mad Swami » Tue Nov 03, 2020 3:38 pm

precita wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:51 pm
I don't understand why people like Fused Zamasu splitting into multiple copies of himself in the manga climax. Not only is it something we've seen before (Cooler movie), but it's also kinda boring? In the anime it felt like Zamasu became this omnipotent energy being taking over the planet itself, there was no way to fight him anymore and the stakes were so high Zeno erasing everything felt like it had to happen. In the manga, there's just an army of Zamasu clones, and Zeno wiping everything out just doesn't have the same impact. Besides that it feels like Trunks literally does nothing in the manga, he doesn't have a single moment of victory like the anime gives him.

Besides that all the build-up stuff the anime did in the arc was much better, with Trunks meeting Gohan's family and sleeping at their house, all the kid Trunks/Future Trunks moments, the explanation of the time rings and the stuff at Bulma's place. It really felt like they spent time getting Trunks integrated with the current cast whereas the manga just stays in the future for the latter half of the arc.
I liked it because one, we never saw it in cannon and they could do creative things with it, and two, the Zeno aspect of the arc doesn't work at all.

precita
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5794
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:10 pm

Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by precita » Tue Nov 03, 2020 5:03 pm

Doesn't Zeno immediately wipe them out shortly after cloning themselves? It's just not the same impact. In the anime one of the main characters even shoots an energy beam into the sky when Zamasu takes it over and it just blows right through it. In the anime it felt like the stakes were far beyond anything the main cast could handle, Zamasu wasn't a physical being anymore so they couldn't even attack him. It was something never done in Dragonball before and Zeno wiping them out felt fitting and made Goku's last resort using the button make sense.

In the manga...it's just an army of fighters, and while Goku/Vegeta were pretty wiped out at the time, it's nothing that unusual they couldn't fight through if they came up with a strategy or whatever. In the anime it felt like the main cast pretty much lost after they thought they won, there was nothing else they could do and Trunks losing his timeline fit a lot better.

Mad Swami
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 879
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:01 am

Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Mad Swami » Tue Nov 03, 2020 5:07 pm

precita wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 5:03 pm
Doesn't Zeno immediately wipe them out shortly after cloning themselves? It's just not the same impact. In the anime one of the main characters even shoots an energy beam into the sky when Zamasu takes it over and it just blows right through it. In the anime it felt like the stakes were far beyond anything the main cast could handle, Zamasu wasn't a physical being anymore so they couldn't even attack him. It was something never done in Dragonball before and Zeno wiping them out felt fitting and made Goku's last resort using the button make sense.

In the manga...it's just an army of fighters, and while Goku/Vegeta were pretty wiped out at the time, it's nothing that unusual they couldn't fight through if they came up with a strategy or whatever. In the anime it felt like the main cast pretty much lost after they thought they won, there was nothing else they could do and Trunks losing his timeline fit a lot better.
My only point is that Zeno wiping them out in any version was bad

precita
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5794
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:10 pm

Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by precita » Tue Nov 03, 2020 5:13 pm

Well in that case sure, but for those of us who liked that climax, it fits far better with the anime version.

Paulo Gabriel
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 178
Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 3:28 am

Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Paulo Gabriel » Sun Nov 08, 2020 6:22 am

precita wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 5:03 pm
Doesn't Zeno immediately wipe them out shortly after cloning themselves? It's just not the same impact. In the anime one of the main characters even shoots an energy beam into the sky when Zamasu takes it over and it just blows right through it. In the anime it felt like the stakes were far beyond anything the main cast could handle, Zamasu wasn't a physical being anymore so they couldn't even attack him. It was something never done in Dragonball before and Zeno wiping them out felt fitting and made Goku's last resort using the button make sense.

In the manga...it's just an army of fighters, and while Goku/Vegeta were pretty wiped out at the time, it's nothing that unusual they couldn't fight through if they came up with a strategy or whatever. In the anime it felt like the main cast pretty much lost after they thought they won, there was nothing else they could do and Trunks losing his timeline fit a lot better.
But that is the point. Wiping them out immediately and right off the bat means that the situation was so desperate that Zeno had to be called in right away and destroy all the Gattai Zamasus. I liked the ending, but I have never seen the anime version to really compare.

User avatar
UpFromTheSkies
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1857
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:05 pm

Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Sun Nov 08, 2020 7:38 am

Mad Swami wrote: My only point is that Zeno wiping them out in any version was bad
I liked it because it showed how dangerous and unpredictable Zeno can be. Goku can't just summon him any time he gets in trouble because his solution might be to just erase the entire universe.

Mad Swami
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 879
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:01 am

Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Mad Swami » Sun Nov 08, 2020 2:01 pm

UpFromTheSkies wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 7:38 am
Mad Swami wrote: My only point is that Zeno wiping them out in any version was bad
I liked it because it showed how dangerous and unpredictable Zeno can be. Goku can't just summon him any time he gets in trouble because his solution might be to just erase the entire universe.
I personally don't like Zeno much as a concept from the beginning but even without that bias, I think it's remarkably unsatisfactory. While sure it shows how dangerous Zeno could be I just don't want to see the heroes solve issues by calling in some unstoppable force. It just sort of ruins everything that was built. I get the button was a checkovs gun and that killing Zamasu is the payoff. However I just didn't enjoy it as a conclusion.

User avatar
SupremeKai25
I Live Here
Posts: 2511
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Nov 08, 2020 3:21 pm

The ending of the Future Trunks arc is what TV Tropes would call a Sudden Downer Ending:
A Sudden Downer Ending is a Grand Finale in which an otherwise completely upbeat, accessible series ends on an unimaginably bleak note. Can also apply to self-contained movies, books, video games, etc. with such endings.


The episode starts with Fused Zamasu disintegrating, seemingly gone. Cue the happy music, everyone rejoices, yada yada yada, until Zamasu's soul comes back and merges with the cosmos itself, making things 100x times worse. In one episode, the arc pretty much goes from one extreme to the other. It seemed like, in classic DB fashion, Trunks vanquished his enemy and saved everyone, but instead everything he did was for nothing, and he lost everything he was fighting for.

What makes this ending "sudden" is that Dragon Ball is not a dark story. If this were a show that has a dark, gory story, then it wouldn't be a sudden ending, you'd be expecting something terrible to happen at the end. But this show is usually very cheerful, very upbeat, all arcs end in a happy way (some more than others). Which is why it's a massive twist that one arc ends in a completely tragic way. I don't think enough people appreciate this twist.

I mean, Dragon Ball is infamous as that one show where the Dragon Balls always bring everyone back, but this time nothing could be done. Everyone is dead, everything is destroyed, that's how the Future Trunks arc ends. Absolutely nothing is left of the Future timeline but 2 mortals.
My form is justice. And my form is the world. Worship me. Give praise unto me. Me, the beautiful, the sublime. Me, the invincible, the almighty and divine. All Hail Zamasu!

User avatar
TobyS
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1579
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:11 pm

Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by TobyS » Sun Nov 08, 2020 4:11 pm

It's dumb as fuck that even if his soul is still around and like his conciousness is diffused into the universe there's no reason he'd be able to gain control over it and change background image on the sky. Dumb as hell.

They had trouble with merged Zamasu, an army of them is terrifying even with the inverse ninja rule or whatever.

And yeah the fact the zeno was unpredictable and violent and his solutions might need a time machine to escape from prevents it from being a long term exploitable thing.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

User avatar
SupremeKai25
I Live Here
Posts: 2511
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Nov 08, 2020 4:27 pm

TobyS wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 4:11 pm
It's dumb as fuck that even if his soul is still around and like his conciousness is diffused into the universe there's no reason he'd be able to gain control over it and change background image on the sky. Dumb as hell.

They had trouble with merged Zamasu, an army of them is terrifying even with the inverse ninja rule or whatever.

And yeah the fact the zeno was unpredictable and violent and his solutions might need a time machine to escape from prevents it from being a long term exploitable thing.
It's not dumb at all. His soul was always immortal as it was granted by immortality by the SUPER DRAGON BALLS, the most powerful artifacts in the entire cosmos. His soul then latched onto the nearest vessel it could find: the cosmos itself.

The "background image" on the sky is simply a visual cue that Zamasu merged with the cosmos.
My form is justice. And my form is the world. Worship me. Give praise unto me. Me, the beautiful, the sublime. Me, the invincible, the almighty and divine. All Hail Zamasu!

Mad Swami
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 879
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:01 am

Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Mad Swami » Sun Nov 08, 2020 5:12 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 4:27 pm
TobyS wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 4:11 pm
It's dumb as fuck that even if his soul is still around and like his conciousness is diffused into the universe there's no reason he'd be able to gain control over it and change background image on the sky. Dumb as hell.

They had trouble with merged Zamasu, an army of them is terrifying even with the inverse ninja rule or whatever.

And yeah the fact the zeno was unpredictable and violent and his solutions might need a time machine to escape from prevents it from being a long term exploitable thing.
It's not dumb at all. His soul was always immortal as it was granted by immortality by the SUPER DRAGON BALLS, the most powerful artifacts in the entire cosmos. His soul then latched onto the nearest vessel it could find: the cosmos itself.

The "background image" on the sky is simply a visual cue that Zamasu merged with the cosmos.
I think the silly part is that he merges with universe as a whole. Why not just the planet? I get they want Zeno to solve the issue but its odd given the universe is not a physical thing

User avatar
Dragon Wukong
Regular
Posts: 627
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:06 am

Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Dragon Wukong » Sun Nov 08, 2020 5:13 pm

I will say Zeno's intervention in the manga does feel less "negative" for Trunks and makes Goku seem like less of a jerk for it than in the anime.

For one, we're never introduced to a group of freedom fighters/children Trunks bond with who are inevitably destroyed by Zamasu. Instead we're only shown Mai as a partner to Trunks, while every other human is killed by Black/Zamasu before the final fight in the manga. This makes the final battle definitively one for the fate of the universe/timeline, rather than the Earth, and helps disconnect Trunks somewhat from the tragedy of Zeno's erasure of the Earth from the onset.

Zamasu also ends up becoming a threat for EVERY SINGLE timeline, not just the present and the future, as Fused Zamasu declares his access to a time machine that can chase Goku and co. anywhere they go, and a plan to enact his scheme to each timeline. This makes the fate that befalls Trunks' timeline in the end truly a "lesser-of-two-evils-final-option" compared to the anime, where Goku only has knowledge that Trunks' timeline is potentially doomed as he calls Zeno.

For those reasons it's my personal opinion that yes, while the end of the FT arc sucks in both versions, the way the manga handled it was better by miles.

User avatar
SupremeKai25
I Live Here
Posts: 2511
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Nov 08, 2020 5:17 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 5:12 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 4:27 pm
TobyS wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 4:11 pm
It's dumb as fuck that even if his soul is still around and like his conciousness is diffused into the universe there's no reason he'd be able to gain control over it and change background image on the sky. Dumb as hell.

They had trouble with merged Zamasu, an army of them is terrifying even with the inverse ninja rule or whatever.

And yeah the fact the zeno was unpredictable and violent and his solutions might need a time machine to escape from prevents it from being a long term exploitable thing.
It's not dumb at all. His soul was always immortal as it was granted by immortality by the SUPER DRAGON BALLS, the most powerful artifacts in the entire cosmos. His soul then latched onto the nearest vessel it could find: the cosmos itself.

The "background image" on the sky is simply a visual cue that Zamasu merged with the cosmos.
I think the silly part is that he merges with universe as a whole. Why not just the planet? I get they want Zeno to solve the issue but its odd given the universe is not a physical thing
What do you mean "It's not a physical thing"? Yes it is. There are even small projections of the various universes around Zeno's Palace. It is indeed a material thing. And like any material thing, it can serve as a potential host for an incorporeal spirit.

Image
He was cut down. But thanks to the dragon's power, his being remains. It seems he's embraced this new ethereal state. No longer confined by his divine vessel, he may be trying to become part of the very fabric of the cosmos. His own twisted idea of justice and order made manifest.
So Zamasu, who was still ALIVE because his soul was immortal, latched onto the fabric of the universe (which we know is a material thing) and became one with it. It's the same thing that Watagash (the little virus creature) does. He latches onto physical beings (like Barry Kahn) and infects them. This is what Zamasu did, but on a much larger scale.
My form is justice. And my form is the world. Worship me. Give praise unto me. Me, the beautiful, the sublime. Me, the invincible, the almighty and divine. All Hail Zamasu!

Mad Swami
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 879
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:01 am

Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Mad Swami » Sun Nov 08, 2020 5:42 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 5:17 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 5:12 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 4:27 pm


It's not dumb at all. His soul was always immortal as it was granted by immortality by the SUPER DRAGON BALLS, the most powerful artifacts in the entire cosmos. His soul then latched onto the nearest vessel it could find: the cosmos itself.

The "background image" on the sky is simply a visual cue that Zamasu merged with the cosmos.
I think the silly part is that he merges with universe as a whole. Why not just the planet? I get they want Zeno to solve the issue but its odd given the universe is not a physical thing
What do you mean "It's not a physical thing"? Yes it is. There are even small projections of the various universes around Zeno's Palace. It is indeed a material thing. And like any material thing, it can serve as a potential host for an incorporeal spirit.

Image
He was cut down. But thanks to the dragon's power, his being remains. It seems he's embraced this new ethereal state. No longer confined by his divine vessel, he may be trying to become part of the very fabric of the cosmos. His own twisted idea of justice and order made manifest.
So Zamasu, who was still ALIVE because his soul was immortal, latched onto the fabric of the universe (which we know is a material thing) and became one with it. It's the same thing that Watagash (the little virus creature) does. He latches onto physical beings (like Barry Kahn) and infects them. This is what Zamasu did, but on a much larger scale.
I mean its not in a physical state. You can't just grab the cosmos. Zeno exists in a place outside of time and reality, the projections are just like holograms of the different universes. I don't know I personally think the ending is the weakest aspect of the arc.

User avatar
SupremeKai25
I Live Here
Posts: 2511
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Nov 08, 2020 6:05 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 5:42 pm
I mean its not in a physical state. You can't just grab the cosmos. Zeno exists in a place outside of time and reality, the projections are just like holograms of the different universes. I don't know I personally think the ending is the weakest aspect of the arc.
Doesn't the Grand Kai literally do that in Z? He holds a projection of the universe on the tip of his finger.

Regardless Zamasu was no longer a physical entity either. He entered an ethereal state, he was basically an astral being, hence why he interacted with the astral core of the cosmos. He then spread his energy across all universes. It is a concept similar to what Omega Shenron did in GT; with his negative energy spreading throughout the world and threatening to engulf the entire universe.

As for the holograms, every single hologram in the palace represents a physical object in space. When Zeno are playing with those planet projections at the beginning of the ToP arc, the actual planets those projections represent were clashing and falling apart. It can therefore be inferred that the projections of the universes correspond to actual physical universes.
My form is justice. And my form is the world. Worship me. Give praise unto me. Me, the beautiful, the sublime. Me, the invincible, the almighty and divine. All Hail Zamasu!

User avatar
Grimlock
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6452
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Conton City

Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Grimlock » Sun Nov 08, 2020 6:34 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 5:42 pm
Zeno exists in a place outside of time and reality, the projections are just like holograms of the different universes.
I don't remember if we have that information, but if I were to guess, those Universes above the pillars are the actual Universes. That means Zeno lives in the Megaverse. Time should still pass right there.

If it's just holograms/projections, then half the fun is gone. :( And I wouldn't know to tell where Zeno actually resides.

Mad Swami
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 879
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:01 am

Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Mad Swami » Sun Nov 08, 2020 11:55 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 6:34 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 5:42 pm
Zeno exists in a place outside of time and reality, the projections are just like holograms of the different universes.
I don't remember if we have that information, but if I were to guess, those Universes above the pillars are the actual Universes. That means Zeno lives in the Megaverse. Time should still pass right there.

If it's just holograms/projections, then half the fun is gone. :( And I wouldn't know to tell where Zeno actually resides.
Well yeah he probably lives in the Megaverse, but I don't imagine the universes are all mashed together like that. That would imply if you go far enough in one you'd reach the other. WAIT. I just realized you guys were talking about the orbs, not the background. Those might be the universes

precita
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5794
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:10 pm

Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by precita » Mon Nov 09, 2020 12:01 am

Mad Swami wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 2:01 pm
UpFromTheSkies wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 7:38 am
Mad Swami wrote: My only point is that Zeno wiping them out in any version was bad
I liked it because it showed how dangerous and unpredictable Zeno can be. Goku can't just summon him any time he gets in trouble because his solution might be to just erase the entire universe.
I personally don't like Zeno much as a concept from the beginning but even without that bias, I think it's remarkably unsatisfactory. While sure it shows how dangerous Zeno could be I just don't want to see the heroes solve issues by calling in some unstoppable force. It just sort of ruins everything that was built. I get the button was a checkovs gun and that killing Zamasu is the payoff. However I just didn't enjoy it as a conclusion.
That's exactly why Zeno won't be overused, it was a last resort in a timeline that was going to meet its end. Zamasu essentially won and wipe out all mortals, and that along with the attachment viewers had to Future Trunks or his timeline, we saw the heroes essentially "fail" for the most part even if the last episode brought about peace and resolution to the arc. And of course it set-up Zeno's power and stakes for the tournament of power after that.

Mad Swami
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 879
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:01 am

Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Mad Swami » Mon Nov 09, 2020 12:07 am

precita wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 12:01 am
Mad Swami wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 2:01 pm
UpFromTheSkies wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 7:38 am

I liked it because it showed how dangerous and unpredictable Zeno can be. Goku can't just summon him any time he gets in trouble because his solution might be to just erase the entire universe.
I personally don't like Zeno much as a concept from the beginning but even without that bias, I think it's remarkably unsatisfactory. While sure it shows how dangerous Zeno could be I just don't want to see the heroes solve issues by calling in some unstoppable force. It just sort of ruins everything that was built. I get the button was a checkovs gun and that killing Zamasu is the payoff. However I just didn't enjoy it as a conclusion.
That's exactly why Zeno won't be overused, it was a last resort in a timeline that was going to meet its end. Zamasu essentially won and wipe out all mortals, and that along with the attachment viewers had to Future Trunks or his timeline, we saw the heroes essentially "fail" for the most part even if the last episode brought about peace and resolution to the arc. And of course it set-up Zeno's power and stakes for the tournament of power after that.
Personally it doesn't work for me. Zeno is not even a celing as he is completley untouchable. I think Dragonball has too many gods at this point. It feels as though they had Zeno save the day randomly but felt it was too abrupt and went back and placed in the Zeno button

User avatar
SupremeKai25
I Live Here
Posts: 2511
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Nov 09, 2020 5:18 am

Mad Swami wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 11:55 pm
Grimlock wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 6:34 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 5:42 pm
Zeno exists in a place outside of time and reality, the projections are just like holograms of the different universes.
I don't remember if we have that information, but if I were to guess, those Universes above the pillars are the actual Universes. That means Zeno lives in the Megaverse. Time should still pass right there.

If it's just holograms/projections, then half the fun is gone. :( And I wouldn't know to tell where Zeno actually resides.
Well yeah he probably lives in the Megaverse, but I don't imagine the universes are all mashed together like that. That would imply if you go far enough in one you'd reach the other. WAIT. I just realized you guys were talking about the orbs, not the background. Those might be the universes
Yes, the orbs would be a projection of the actual universe. Obviously it's not THE ACTUAL UNIVERSE, since it wouldn't be so small compared to Zeno's palace, but it's still a small scale replica of what the actual universe looks like. Literally an orb enclosing the various planets, galaxies, etc.

This is not even a concept of Super, as the Grand Kai in Z held a replica of the 7th Universe on his finger. The universes were always considered to be physical, material planes in Dragon Ball:

Image

As such it's not far-fetched that the universe would serve as a new host for Zamasu's soul. As with any physical thing, it has a core, and Zamasu infected it.

This is the same concept as a ghost possessing a building. There are countless horror stories in which a ghost has "merged" with an abandoned house and controls it. It's the same concept here, but on a much larger scale.
My form is justice. And my form is the world. Worship me. Give praise unto me. Me, the beautiful, the sublime. Me, the invincible, the almighty and divine. All Hail Zamasu!

Post Reply