I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

[Matches Malone]

Imagine super started today in weekly shonen jump, but it's a completely different series altogether. Yet the quality of this new startup series is the same as super, I say 9/10 it will get axed from jump.

I've always believed this as well, but the more I think about it, I don't even think it would get published. There are a lot of Mangaka who try to get into jump, and chances are just about anything presented alongside this hypothetical non-DB super would come out on top.

[JewyB]

Compare DBS to other shonen series of the past 25 or so years, One Piece, Full Metal Alchemist, Death Note, HxH, Naruto (before the war arc and all the alien bullshit), Attack on Titan, YYH, Gintama etc .FWIW, I have not seen ever show/read every manga, but can you argue DBS is really better than any of these series? In my honest opinion, no, it's not.

One Piece - Yes
Full Metal Alchemist - No
Death Note - No
HxH - Anything after the ants, yes
Naruto - Anything after like, 3/4 into the chuunin arc, yes
Attack on Titan - Jesus literally anything on any list is better yes.
YYH - Not at all
Gintama - I feel they're about on par.

Opinions are wild, and I also think its a terrible argument to say "It doesn't compare to some of the most well received series of all time how could it be a good series?"

[SupremeKai25]

Yeah I don't really like these subjective arguments. Dragon Ball never had a complex story anyway, so I'm not bothered by the fact that DBS doesn't have as intricate of a story as, for example, Naruto. I still find it more enjoyable than any title on that list.

[UpFromTheSkies]

Imagine super started today in weekly shonen jump, but it's a completely different series altogether. Yet the quality of this new startup series is the same as super, I say 9/10 it will get axed from jump.

I've always believed this as well, but the more I think about it, I don't even think it would get published. There are a lot of Mangaka who try to get into jump, and chances are just about anything presented alongside this hypothetical non-DB super would come out on top.

Why though? I haven't seen anyone mention problems with Super that Dragon Ball didn't already have... Super has the same power scaling problems, the same amount of unexplained plot holes, the same naive childish Goku, the same ass pull power ups and techniques, and it follows the same basic formula as the old Dragon Ball: a new villain appears and over powers our heroes, they train to get stronger, then they fight the villain again and win.

[Cipher]

I’m not even sure what hypothetical game is being played in discussing whether a Dragon Ball Super that wasn’t a sequel to Dragon Ball would make it in weekly Jump.

The series is so wholly wrapped up in being a fluffy sequel—structurally, idealistically, tonally—that you’re essentially asking if a mystery hypothetical project by the same creative team would have hacked it. Super’s sequel status isn’t something that can be plucked out of it and leave us with even the shadow of anything concrete to discuss the merits of. The series’ terms are quite clear: This is more DB.

It’s like asking if The Shining would have succeeded if it were a comedy. What are we even discussing?

[LoganForkHands73]

I’m not even sure what hypothetical game is being played in discussing whether a Dragon Ball Super that wasn’t a sequel to Dragon Ball would make it in weekly Jump.

The series is so wholly wrapped up in being a fluffy sequel—structurally, idealistically, tonally—that you’re essentially asking if a mystery hypothetical project by the same creative team would have hacked it. Super’s sequel status isn’t something that can be plucked out of it and leave us with even the shadow of anything concrete to discuss the merits of. The series’ terms are quite clear: This is more DB.

It’s like asking if The Shining would have succeeded if it were a comedy. What are we even discussing?

I agree, this is a bizarre topic. If Super was made today, but it was another manga entirely unrelated to Dragon Ball, it would never get published...

What?

Spoiler:

Divorced from Dragon Ball, the series is literally nothing. If the topic is about some vague writing quality standards, again, without the pre-eminence of Dragon Ball, how would these story arcs even be told? Not-Goku feeds Not-Moro a Not-Senzu Bean, Not-Dragon Ball fans outraged.

This is somehow weirder than all those debates where people ask "what if the Beatles never broke up, would they still be pumping out bangers?" Only the hypothetical-alternate-reality Beatles could possibly know their own artistic process, it's not something anyone else can predict for them. There's just no way of telling.

[UI Peter]

Compare DBS to other shonen series of the past 25 or so years, One Piece, Full Metal Alchemist, Death Note, HxH, Naruto (before the war arc and all the alien bullshit), Attack on Titan, YYH, Gintama etc .FWIW, I have not seen ever show/read every manga, but can you argue DBS is really better than any of these series? In my honest opinion, no, it's not.

One Piece - Yes
Full Metal Alchemist - No
Death Note - No
HxH - Anything after the ants, yes
Naruto - Anything after like, 3/4 into the chuunin arc, yes
Attack on Titan - Jesus literally anything on any list is better yes.
YYH - Not at all
Gintama - I feel they're about on par.

Opinions are wild, and I also think its a terrible argument to say "It doesn't compare to some of the most well received series of all time how could it be a good series?"

Naruto Shippuden, Attack on Titan, Gintama and especially One Piece are all clearly better than anything in Super, in fact every show on that list is. Only the most biased DB fanboys would deny this.

[Matches Malone]

I’m not even sure what hypothetical game is being played in discussing whether a Dragon Ball Super that wasn’t a sequel to Dragon Ball would make it in weekly Jump.

I agree, this is a bizarre topic. If Super was made today, but it was another manga entirely unrelated to Dragon Ball, it would never get published... What?

I'm talking about a hypothetical new series that had the same issues Super has. I'm not talking about a literal Super without DB characters. Shonen Jump only takes the best, so chances are a series pitched with as many issues as Super has would be turned down.

Naruto Shippuden, Attack on Titan, Gintama and especially One Piece are all clearly better than anything in Super. Only the most biased DB fanboys would deny this.

I understand art is subjective, but you'd have to be a major fanboy to say Super has anything on that list.

[JulieYBM]

Personally, I think we're overthinking things by comparing Dragon Ball Super to series that are all written by people who are taking at least full control of their comic. Like, Toriyama obviously isn't the type of creator to really give a shit about the sort of things a lot of us care about. In that respect, I think we need to refrain from comparing it to something like, say, NARUTO or BLEACH, where the series was clearly being created by people who were fully invested in their comics as a personal work. Dragon Ball Super is not a personal work for Toriyama but he maintains oversight and either vetoes good ideas of others or maintains a certain mindset in its production that prevents it from truly standing on its own.

Basically, nobody's going to tell Toriyama 'no' or fight him on things, meanwhile Toriyama's not going to give a shit about producers who have a product to sell to a very squeaky-clean demographic. This environment creates almost constipated projects in some respects. Movie #20 is a product of this: certainly, you can feel the storyboard artists and animators go absolutely apeshit bonkers creating the best Dragon Ball animation and film but there are also still very clearly spots that Toriyama's influence--and the need of a producer to produce a certain type of film--come into play. A reduced runtime and less character moments, Gokuu never really sweating it out too much or at the very least bouncing back quickly--that sort of thing. It's a real shame because it really feels like there are some fascinating episodes and moments in Dragon Ball Super that need to be pushed further, not pulled back.

[Matches Malone]

Personally, I think we're overthinking things by comparing Dragon Ball Super to series that are all written by people who are taking at least full control of their comic. Like, Toriyama obviously isn't the type of creator to really give a shit about the sort of things a lot of us care about.

I agree with everything you said, but I want to comment on this part specifically because there is one product in modern DB where Toriyama did take an active role in making it his vision instead of just giving the staff and companies what they wanted, and that was the BOG movie. That movie had everything I ever wanted from a post-Buu arc Toriyama story, and that's exactly what I want to see more of. I remember leading up to its release how invested Toriyama was in the marketing as well, as he was doing interviews all the time, unlike now. I understand things were a bit different back then, as Toriyama wanted to prove himself to the Fox executives who thumbed their noses up at him, but I still wish he continued with that mindset of making something he wanted to be told, rather than helping others tell their stories.

[SupremeKai25]

I’m not even sure what hypothetical game is being played in discussing whether a Dragon Ball Super that wasn’t a sequel to Dragon Ball would make it in weekly Jump.

The series is so wholly wrapped up in being a fluffy sequel—structurally, idealistically, tonally—that you’re essentially asking if a mystery hypothetical project by the same creative team would have hacked it. Super’s sequel status isn’t something that can be plucked out of it and leave us with even the shadow of anything concrete to discuss the merits of. The series’ terms are quite clear: This is more DB.

It’s like asking if The Shining would have succeeded if it were a comedy. What are we even discussing?

Especially since Boruto, if I'm not mistaken, is very unpopular and isn't doing well in sales, it was even dropped out of weekly jump. This is despite Boruto being the official sequel of Naruto Shippuden and supervised by Kishimoto himself. So it's not like Super had "everything handed to him" just because it's an official midquel of DBZ. Brand can only take you so far.

[Skar]

Especially since Boruto, if I'm not mistaken, is very unpopular and isn't doing well in sales, it was even dropped out of weekly jump. This is despite Boruto being the official sequel of Naruto Shippuden and supervised by Kishimoto himself. So it's not like Super had "everything handed to him" just because it's an official midquel of DBZ. Brand can only take you so far.

GT might be more of a fair comparison to Boruto since it's a continuation with minor involvement from the original author. From what I've read, Kishimoto isn't involved in the manga and only minor supervision of the anime. While Toei and Toyotaro add to the outlines, the main plot is still provided by Toriyama and the movies are mostly written by him at least.

If the series continues after Toriyama retires, I would say it'll go the same route as Boruto and decline with each release. There might be some evidence to the contrary that I'm not aware of but Boruto is the only example I have to go on. Boruto manga still sells more than the DBS manga despite its decline, is watched more in certain regions according to some streaming sites, and TV Tokyo's second highest earning anime.

[Cipher]

I'm talking about a hypothetical new series that had the same issues Super has. I'm not talking about a literal Super without DB characters. Shonen Jump only takes the best, so chances are a series pitched with as many issues as Super has would be turned down.

The only potential issues Super has that you can uncouple from it being a DB sequel are art-related though, since its writing every step of the way would have to be entirely different were it not that?

Weekly JUMP is cutthroat so the answer is probably that ... most series, no matter how good, wouldn’t survive in it. Sometimes things that also aren’t very good hang on by circumstance. I don’t know; it’s not in me to imagine what completely imagined series would or would not make it. Toyotarō’s visual craft isn’t on the level of most series that run in it, but that doesn’t seem like what the thread is about?

There’s plenty of room to critique the series‘ writing, but this line of hypotheticals doesn’t lead anywhere meaningful. Whatever one wants to bring up as its writing flaws, it’s entirely possible they wouldn’t be there in the first place, or different ones would replace them, were it not the specific kind of sequel it is. Like, nothing about the way it works can be peeled away from what it is and promises. No one would write a new series the way Super is written, but a sequel also doesn’t need to act like a new series, so ...?

Again, it’s like asking us to imagine if a flawed horror film would have succeeded as a comedy with the same flaws. Would ... would it even have the same issues if we have to imagine it reconceptialized as an entirely different genre? What does that hypothetical leave us to meaningfully comment on?

[Skar]

Again, it’s like asking us to imagine if a flawed horror film would have succeeded as a comedy with the same flaws. Would ... would it even have the same issues if we have to imagine it reconceptialized as an entirely different genre? What does that hypothetical leave us to meaningfully comment on?

I don't think that's what he's asking and it's a little more straightforward. Could a brand new shonen series be successful with the same rough start that DBS had? The anime had shorter than average pre-production time so could a new anime get away with a few cours of that quality before it improved? Could a new manga start as promotional manga and last long enough to work its way up to a full monthly release?

In this case, I think brand recognition helps because fans know what the franchise is capable of in the past so there's a reason to wait and hope it could improve. I don't know of any new series that had the same start and lasted long or considered successful . Maybe there are examples of new series that I'm not aware of which is why I ask. We're all DB fans here so no one has an incentive to criticism its sequel if they didn't feel it had the potential to be better. It's because you're a huge fan that you would feel disappointed knowing you were given a product that may not qualify as average by today's standards aside from a few instances.

[Cipher]

I suppose I got hung up in the exact wording of the hypothetical. I can understand the sentiment of underlying disappointment in Super not at least attempting to be kind of trend-setter in its context that DB was in its, which is in the realm of possibility even for sequels.

It could have been "DB is back, and it's still breaking new ground!," but it wound up not even setting out to do that. I think what it is is fine, with caveats and meeting it on its own terms, but I can definitely understand being disappointed or frustrated with what those terms are.

[JewyB]

Naruto Shippuden, Attack on Titan, Gintama and especially One Piece are all clearly better than anything in Super, in fact every show on that list is. Only the most biased DB fanboys would deny this.

Or... now hear me out because this is a crazy thought... People can like or dislike different things regardless of what they are a fan of. I can tell you what i dislike about all four series but instead you'll write it off as "lol DB fan boy" so instead i'll just say "why would i argue with a narutard?" Or you can accept that people have the potential to like different things and willing to have an open discussion on that point, because the second you write off someone elses opinion you've failed at discussion.

I understand art is subjective, but you'd have to be a major fanboy to say Super has anything on that list.

Again, why would you have to be a fanboy, its like saying "Man if you dont like chocolate its because you're obsessed with strawberrys". It makes no sense. You can't say "it's subjective" then make an objective judgement, its contradictory af.

[Matches Malone]

I don't think that's what he's asking and it's a little more straightforward.

Thanks for clearing it up.

We're all DB fans here so no one has an incentive to criticism its sequel if they didn't feel it had the potential to be better. It's because you're a huge fan that you would feel disappointed knowing you were given a product that may not qualify as average by today's standards aside from a few instances.

This is exactly why I'm as hard on modern DB as I am, I know for a fact it can be better. I'm not even talking about it in relation to the original, but rather the BOG movie, what kicked started this revival. Everything about it was new and fresh, which is what I wanted this entire revival to be, instead it took a step back in favor of nostalgia focused elements and bare bone stories.

Again, why would you have to be a fanboy, its like saying "Man if you don't like chocolate its because you're obsessed with strawberrys".

You don't like Chocolate ? I understand Strawberries are good and all, but you'd pick them over glorious Chocolate ? forget about DB, we need to clear this up instead.

[JewyB]

Again, why would you have to be a fanboy, its like saying "Man if you don't like chocolate its because you're obsessed with strawberrys".

You don't like Chocolate ? I understand Strawberries are good and all, but you'd pick them over glorious Chocolate ? forget about DB, we need to clear this up instead.

I actually dont like Strawberries, i like strawberry flavouring but the texture of actual strawberries puts me off, chocolate depends, white chocolate > milk chocolate > dark chocolate > chocolate flavouring.

[kemuri07]

Ah yes, because fiction needs original ideas to be entertaining and enjoyable.

If all I'm going to get is fan service I might as well just watch the original material they're basing it off of.

I'm not saying doing ONLY fan-service is alright, but there's nothing wrong with doing fan-service once in a while, especially if it's well-written or just very fitting thematically.

I hope this doesn't have to be reminded, but Super doesn't do ONLY fan-service. It would be a grave mistake to claim that. Super has created tons of original characters that have become very iconic. Some are beloved, others are controversial (probably because the writers didn't want to cave into fans' demands), regardless they are new unique characters.

That's debatable. I'd argue that maybe Goku Black, but that's just another Goku. Jiren? Eh. And even with this "highly iconic"characters, it's still using them in familiar situations that DB has done so many times before in the past. Hey you want another Tournment arc? Oh we got you some tournament arcs. Hey wanna go back to the Future Trunk timeline? FUCK YEAH we got that too. Making 17 GOAT because why not? Dragon Ball Super's entire existence depends on your nostalgia for DBZ. As someone who dislikes a large majority of Super, there are moments that work for me. But that's only because it reminds me of moments in DBZ.

[The Undying]

"Opinions are bad, mkay?" is basically what I'm getting from this thread.

I could write essays regarding why I think Naruto is derivative drivel that stopped being decent or even thematically consistent after the Chuunin exams, why One Piece is the epitome of excessive bloat from its art/paneling down to its very story structure, and why Attack on Titan completely fails at what it sets out to achieve. I could go even further and explain why DB's modern contemporaries not only took all the wrong lessons from it, but to this day are (ironically) mocked by the very work that influenced them.

I won't, because none of it really matters. None of it matters because there's no genuine discussion to be had here. If anyone doesn't immediately concur, they're "fanboys" that need to "admit" things they obviously disagree with; that's the end of it. This is in such bad faith, and is generally the kind of discourse I'd expect from Twitter rather than Kanzenshuu.

What a pointless topic.