I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

[JewyB]

well, something that is confirmed is that neither toriyama nor toyotaro know how to write female characters (female warriors)

I'm sure the goat community is very happy with how they've been represented in the current arc, so there's that.

We were represented? Weren't we taught that we were just inferior and old?

[Matches Malone]

We were represented? Weren't we taught that we were just inferior and old?

Moro has shown that age is nothing more than a number. Super has also done well by the cat community and the silent muscular gray alien community.

[JewyB]

We were represented? Weren't we taught that we were just inferior and old?

Moro has shown that age is nothing more than a number. Super has also done well by the cat community and the silent muscular gray alien community.

Yes but he has also shown that the less goat you are, the more better you are, and we goat people dont appreciate that blatant goatism!

[Ziegander]

The arc finally found a narrative theme, I guess. And it's the most superficial thing I think I've ever seen.

[Hellspawn28]

Toriyama was far from being perfect too. His writing was never consistent as well.

[WittyUsername]

I just wish that Moro wasn’t such an unbelievably boring villain. Everything about him is just a rehash of past villains. There’s nothing interesting about him.

[UpFromTheSkies]

I think some people expect too much from Dragon Ball, they are remembering the original story through the eyes of their childhood selves and are imagining it to be much better than it was, when it reality it wasn't serious and was full of inconsistencies, retcons and general ridiculousness. Super isn't any different, you're just an adult now and expect more from a story.

[Matches Malone]

I think some people expect too much from Dragon Ball, they are remembering the original story through the eyes of their childhood selves and are imagining it to be much better than it was.

Never mind the fact the original was one of, if not the most influential manga in Japan. Let me know when modern DB starts influencing people to create mega hits such as Naruto and One Piece to name a few. Trying to bring down the original to justify modern's issues instead of calling it out on them is never going to work.

[UpFromTheSkies]

I think some people expect too much from Dragon Ball, they are remembering the original story through the eyes of their childhood selves and are imagining it to be much better than it was.

Never mind the fact the original was one of, if not the most influential manga in Japan. Let me know when modern DB starts influencing people to create mega hits such as Naruto and One Piece to name a few. Trying to bring down the original to justify modern's issues instead of calling it out on them is never going to work.

I'm not trying to bring it down, I LOVE the original manga and I agree it's been very influential, but it was never meant to be taken seriously, it's just a kids comic with flashy fights and cheesy jokes, and there are lots of inconsistencies and retcons in it because it was just made up on the fly by Toriyama and his editor.

It reminds of how a lot of music fans interpret their favorite bands songs way too seriously and look for meaning that's not there. I love Led Zeppelin, they were an amazing band that's been extremely influential, but Robert Plant didn't intend for his lyrics to be taken seriously with deep hidden meanings, they were just a bunch of guys having fun making rock music and singing about Lord of the Rings.

[BWri]

I think some people expect too much from Dragon Ball, they are remembering the original story through the eyes of their childhood selves and are imagining it to be much better than it was.

Never mind the fact the original was one of, if not the most influential manga in Japan. Let me know when modern DB starts influencing people to create mega hits such as Naruto and One Piece to name a few. Trying to bring down the original to justify modern's issues instead of calling it out on them is never going to work.

Amen! I think people are also forgetting that Dragon Ball did grow and mature over time as well. The tone in the first arc was not the same as the King Piccolo arc and that arcs tone was different from the Saiyan arc which was different from Namek and later Androids/Cell. DB became more complex and tragic over time to the point where it was telling mature stories like Bardock: The Father of Goku and History of Trunks. That era of DB gets so much credit because it told solid stories that resonated with all ages. Many of the stories it told, featured concepts that could only be understood by adults.

[Matches Malone]

I'm not trying to bring it down, I LOVE the original manga and I agree it's been very influential, but it was never meant to be taken seriously, it's just a kids comic with flashy fights and cheesy jokes, and there are lots of inconsistencies and retcons in it because it was just made up on the fly by Toriyama and his editor.

I don't deny the original having its own issues, but there's a clear gap in quality between it and what we're getting with modern DB. Things are improving (apart from today's chapter), so at least we seem to be moving in the right direction.

Amen! I think people are also forgetting that Dragon Ball did grow and mature over time as well.

I think the biggest issue facing modern DB is how directionless it is. I know the original wasn't written with everything planned out, but Toriyama managed to make everything seem natural as it progressed. When you look at the original manga, it works as one story with a beginning and ending. With modern DB, it's clear they're just throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks, and even looking back at it, it just doesn't seem as coherent and connected as it should be.

[UpFromTheSkies]

I think the biggest issue facing modern DB is how directionless it is. I know the original wasn't written with everything planned out, but Toriyama managed to make everything seem natural as it progressed. When you look at the original manga, it works as one story with a beginning and ending. With modern DB, it's clear they're just throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks, and even looking back at it, it just doesn't seem as coherent and connected as it should be.

Toriyama didn't plan anything out at all... If you take off the childhood nostalgia glasses and look at the series objectively you can see just how directionless it was and how Toriyama was literally making things up as he went along.
How many times were villains introduced as the most powerful in the universe only to be randomly one upped by the next villain? How many transformations and techniques were presented as being the ultimate technique when first introduced, only to have a new one randomly take it's place? Or what about Goku dying and Gohan being set up as the main hero, only to have Goku randomly return when the story wasn't doing as well without him?

[Matches Malone]

How many times were villains introduced as the most powerful in the universe only to be randomly one upped by the next villain? How many transformations and techniques were presented as being the ultimate technique when first introduced, only to have a new one randomly take it's place?

This is common in all Shonen. Take any arc in a random Shonen and chances are what comes next will surpass it. when it comes to planning, Toriyama said he was thinking about Namek while writing the 23rd Tenkaichi. He was clearly not as well organized as someone like Oda with One Piece, but he still knew where things were going. I do agree with you on Gohan, as he himself said it just didn't work out like he planned. I give him credit for course correcting instead of going through with something he didn't believe was best.

[UI Peter]

I think some people expect too much from Dragon Ball, they are remembering the original story through the eyes of their childhood selves and are imagining it to be much better than it was, when it reality it wasn't serious and was full of inconsistencies, retcons and general ridiculousness. Super isn't any different, you're just an adult now and expect more from a story.

This nostalgia argument has been debunked numerous times and it ignores the main point of criticism of Super: that its objectively worse (on average) in almost all ways than much of what came before.

How do you explain the fact that even people who didn't grow up with Z think Super is a worse series?

And just because something doesn't take itself seriously (nevermind that DB itself started to get somewhat more serious since the King Piccolo arc, and that Z in general is more dramatic/serious than Super on average) doesn't mean its above criticism and standards of quality. And just because something is for kids doesn't mean its okay for it to be low quality.

[UpFromTheSkies]

How many times were villains introduced as the most powerful in the universe only to be randomly one upped by the next villain? How many transformations and techniques were presented as being the ultimate technique when first introduced, only to have a new one randomly take it's place?

This is common in all Shonen. Take any arc in a random Shonen and chances are what comes next will surpass it. when it comes to planning, Toriyama said he was thinking about Namek while writing the 23rd Tenkaichi. He was clearly not as well organized as someone like Oda with One Piece, but he still knew where things were going. I do agree with you on Gohan, as he himself said it just didn't work out like he planned. I give him credit for course correcting instead of going through with something he didn't believe was best.

Yeah it's all very typical of shonen manga, with Oda being the exception, he's like the Shakespeare of shonen comics. I still love it though, and I think a lot more people would enjoy Super if they would just look at it for what it is and stop having such high expectations.

[JewyB]

This nostalgia argument has been debunked numerous times and it ignores the main point of criticism of Super: that its objectively worse (on average) in almost all ways than much of what came before.

How do you explain the fact that even people who didn't grow up with Z think Super is a worse series?

And just because something doesn't take itself seriously (nevermind that DB itself started to get somewhat more serious since the King Piccolo arc, and that Z in general is more dramatic/serious than Super on average) doesn't mean its above criticism and standards of quality. And just because something is for kids doesn't mean its okay for it to be low quality.

Whilst its true the nostalgia argument can't be proven, neither can Super being objectively worse than Z, because it's a subjective thing.

Eg. How do you explain the fact the even people who didnt grow up with Z think Super is a better series? Because they exist.

Its not above criticism but it isn't above praise either, just because it doesnt outshine its predecessor in every aspect at all times doesnt mean its only bad aspects. Both of them are neither black or white, they are both grey, lets treat them as grey.

[UI Peter]

How many times were villains introduced as the most powerful in the universe only to be randomly one upped by the next villain? How many transformations and techniques were presented as being the ultimate technique when first introduced, only to have a new one randomly take it's place?

This is common in all Shonen. Take any arc in a random Shonen and chances are what comes next will surpass it. when it comes to planning, Toriyama said he was thinking about Namek while writing the 23rd Tenkaichi. He was clearly not as well organized as someone like Oda with One Piece, but he still knew where things were going. I do agree with you on Gohan, as he himself said it just didn't work out like he planned. I give him credit for course correcting instead of going through with something he didn't believe was best.

Yeah it's all very typical of shonen manga, with Oda being the exception, he's like the Shakespeare of shonen comics. I still love it though, and I think a lot more people would enjoy Super if they would just look at it for what it is and stop having such high expectations.

Most people are looking at it for what it is, and they are still disappointed, especially since there's plenty of Shonen nowadays that do it much better.

[UpFromTheSkies]

How do you explain the fact that even people who didn't grow up with Z think Super is a worse series?

Maybe because it's trendy to think Super is inferior to the rest of the series? The only area of Super that I think is inferior is the quality and art style of the TV anime, the original looks a lot better, but the original story has all the same "problems" as Super

And just because something doesn't take itself seriously (nevermind that DB itself started to get somewhat more serious since the King Piccolo arc, and that Z in general is more dramatic/serious than Super on average) doesn't mean its above criticism and standards of quality. And just because something is for kids doesn't mean its okay for it to be low quality.

It's not above criticism, but it should be criticized for what it is, a kids comic.

Even Toriyama knew the story was ridiculous, look at the Gotenks chapters, they are basically Toriyama poking fun at his own managa.

[Hellspawn28]

I think some people expect too much from Dragon Ball, they are remembering the original story through the eyes of their childhood selves and are imagining it to be much better than it was.

Never mind the fact the original was one of, if not the most influential manga in Japan. Let me know when modern DB starts influencing people to create mega hits such as Naruto and One Piece to name a few. Trying to bring down the original to justify modern's issues instead of calling it out on them is never going to work.

I think he means that the writing in the original DB manga was far from perfect. The DB manga does have writing flaws too such as Cell's regeneration, Buu turning to Kid Buu and not Grey Buu when Vegeta remove Fat Buu inside him, the Dragon Balls can be used every six months instead of one year, etc.

[Block88]

Toriyama was far from being perfect too. His writing was never consistent as well.

And ya pint is?
No one said AT was perfect I’ve seen folks criticize the decisions made in the Android/Cell and Buu saga way before Super was a thing
And still his writing from back then still shits on what we’re getting now

I think some people expect too much from Dragon Ball, they are remembering the original story through the eyes of their childhood selves and are imagining it to be much better than it was, when it reality it wasn't serious and was full of inconsistencies, retcons and general ridiculousness. Super isn't any different, you're just an adult now and expect more from a story.

This nostalgia argument has been debunked numerous times and it ignores the main point of criticism of Super: that its objectively worse (on average) in almost all ways than much of what came before.

How do you explain the fact that even people who didn't grow up with Z think Super is a worse series?

And just because something doesn't take itself seriously (nevermind that DB itself started to get somewhat more serious since the King Piccolo arc, and that Z in general is more dramatic/serious than Super on average) doesn't mean its above criticism and standards of quality. And just because something is for kids doesn't mean its okay for it to be low quality.

It’s quite telling people has to defend super low quality by bringing up Z flaws as if that’s supposed to make it okay