I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Kinokima » Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:23 pm

I am not a huge Hunter X Hunter fan but whatever your personally think of it compared to Super it’s definitely held in a higher critical acclaim

I don’t think Super is a masterpiece like I said before I find it pretty average but I also think a lot of fans overrate a lot of other modern day Battle Shounen too. That’s a personal bias talking though since while I got into anime/manga through Battle Shounen it’s one of the genres I am least interested in these days.

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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:49 pm

JewyB wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:17 pm
So disabled people can't have their work judged critically? That deems a bit exclusive. He also isnt severely disabled as far as i'm aware, he suffers from back pain as a result of his career, something common in mangaka(Hell, the World Trigger artist took two years off for the same thing), and prior to that he was also well known for taking breaks due to laziness.

It would be like if we suddenly found out that Toriyama had one leg, would it suddenly devalue any criticism of his work and place him above any criticism because he's now disabled? Or should we judge their work in the same way we would anyone elses because thats the equal way to do it?

He writes and draws. We can judge his storytelling ability regardless of the mans ability to stand up, in the same way JK Rowling is perfectly physically abled, but her storytelling ability sucks. To comment on his art may be unfair, but he's an artist, its to be expected, to leave him out of valid criticism because he's disabled? Oof.

EDIT: To clarify a little further, I'm disabled, and my goal is to work in comics, so i'm speaking a little personally, but i'd hate to be left out of a discussion/treated differently in a field I'm a huge part of because of my disability.
No, I'm saying comments like "practically become a book" are stupid. Don't just skip over the 'why' of why one feels a necessity to be critical of a guy who can't shit on his own. I'm saying let things go. Don't walk down certain paths. You don't need to ask some questions. You don't need answers to some questions. It's a word of advice we all need to be more accepting of.

Laziness is not a thing. Nobody is just mentally paralyzed into not being able to accomplish things. It's a matter of health, which is every bit mental and psychological, too. Togashi has been suffering from poor health for decades, since the early 1990s as far as we know. 'Lazy' is just an incredibly upsetting and insulting term to use for a guy whose health has been destroyed by capitalism and the death cult that is productivity culture.

Context matters. Togashi's needing to rely more on text than drawing due to his poor health should not be treated as a damning element that should be treated as defining the main component of critical analysis of his work. At that point it's not being critical, it's being callous. Togashi isn't out here hurting other people, he's creating a dumb comic, we don't need to come down harshly on the poor schmuck.
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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Matches Malone » Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:58 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:49 pm
Togashi has been suffering from poor health for decades, since the early 1990s as far as we know. 'Lazy' is just an incredibly upsetting and insulting term to use for a guy whose health has been destroyed by capitalism and the death cult that is productivity culture.
The weekly method of publishing manga is mentally and physically killing these people, Jump and other magazines should've switched to publishing every other week years ago. There's nothing more insulting than calling someone who works that hard "lazy", as these mangaka are among the hardest working people you could find.

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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by JewyB » Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:04 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:49 pm
No, I'm saying comments like "practically become a book" are stupid. Don't just skip over the 'why' of why one feels a necessity to be critical of a guy who can't shit on his own. I'm saying let things go. Don't walk down certain paths. You don't need to ask some questions. You don't need answers to some questions. It's a word of advice we all need to be more accepting of.

Laziness is not a thing. Nobody is just mentally paralyzed into not being able to accomplish things. It's a matter of health, which is every bit mental and psychological, too. Togashi has been suffering from poor health for decades, since the early 1990s as far as we know. 'Lazy' is just an incredibly upsetting and insulting term to use for a guy whose health has been destroyed by capitalism and the death cult that is productivity culture.

Context matters. Togashi's needing to rely more on text than drawing due to his poor health should not be treated as a damning element that should be treated as defining the main component of critical analysis of his work. At that point it's not being critical, it's being callous. Togashi isn't out here hurting other people, he's creating a dumb comic, we don't need to come down harshly on the poor schmuck.
I'm sorry but if you feel a legitimate criticism of a piece of art that isnt framed as a personal attack is being overly critical because the man is disabled, you are part of a huger problem and i just dont see this discussion progressing any further.
Matches Malone wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:58 pm
The weekly method of publishing manga is mentally and physically killing these people, Jump and other magazines should've switched to publishing every other week years ago. There's nothing more insulting than calling someone who works that hard "lazy", as these mangaka are among the hardest working people you could find.
I agree with this, and have always said that manga should be bi-weekly instead of weekly, its unrealistic the expectations set.

However, i never called him lazy, i said he had taken breaks due to laziness, which was probably the wrong word to use but i wasn't expecting it to be taken as a majorly critical personal attack on him, but pointing out that he has taken breaks because he was kinda over the work, wanted to spend time with his family, laziness, amongst other reasons, not just because of his disability.

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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:22 pm

JewyB wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:04 pm
However, i never called him lazy, i said he had taken breaks due to laziness, which was probably the wrong word to use but i wasn't expecting it to be taken as a majorly critical personal attack on him, but pointing out that he has taken breaks because he was kinda over the work, not because of his disability.
"He took breaks due to laziness"
"I never called him lazy"

Pick one.

Jokes aside, I partly agree with some your overall points, but I'd say it's still far from laziness (or whichever word you'd now prefer to use) for an author to take a break from writing a particular work, whether it's due to creative burnout, mental burnout from the workload or complications from his disability. They're all 100% valid reasons so there's no need to be disrespectful about it.
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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by JewyB » Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:37 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:22 pm
"He took breaks due to laziness"
"I never called him lazy"

Pick one.

Jokes aside, I partly agree with some your overall points, but I'd say it's still far from laziness (or whichever word you'd now prefer to use) for an author to take a break from writing a particular work, whether it's due to creative burnout, mental burnout from the workload or complications from his disability. They're all 100% valid reasons so there's no need to be disrespectful about it.
"He ate some apples"
"He exclusively eats apples and is made of apples"

I know you were joking but i also know that people will read that as how it is. I actually edited that part while you were commenting because i realised i worded it horribly, but I'm saying he has taken breaks for many reasons, not just his disability. Laziness is one of many reasons, and something we're all capable of, even if we are... shitting ourselves excessively apparently...

But even then, i wasn't disrespectful, nor have i been. I made a comment about the final presentation of the product, that it came across more like a book than a manga. I never commented on the content, the artist, the talent or anything, just the presentation.

That was taken as an opportunity to virtue signal to a disabled artist not to judge another disabled artist. I was talking about the product, other people made it about the artist, and not jsut that, overwhelmingly about his disability. I acknowledge that he has a disability but that that doesnt exempt him from valid criticism, and i try to clarify he has other facets to his personality, but nope, his identity is disabled first, artist second. thats the progressive way i guess? Is saying "treat the disabled mans work with the same respect" that controversial opinion?

Btw just before anyone responds to this negatively, dont be overly critical, remember, i too am in chronic pain. I just find the idea of "We should hold you to lower standards because you've had it tough enough bud" condescending and offensive.

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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Oct 27, 2020 3:17 pm

It's not condescending to say that perhaps we should think as empathetic humans before we think like we're characters in a dumb fucking shounen comic where pride is everything that matters. This isn't a competition, Togashi isn't out here trying to fight to be the best in a martial arts tournament. One really isn't going to get anything out of harping on faults that exist purely as a matter of Togashi's poor health.
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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by JewyB » Tue Oct 27, 2020 3:28 pm

EDIT: Nevermind get back to me when this is about writing again jfc.

Taking initiative, we can all agree Toyo has come a long way as an artist right? He still has this weird way of drawing Necks but his art is so much smoother and easier on the eye now.

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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:19 pm

This whole thread has never been about the writing, lol. Hence why so many people have shitposted it to death. It's like the old saying goes, if you start a thread trying to stir shit, expect shit to... uh... be posted?

Regarding his art, I think the last few chapters alone prove that he's improved drastically even over the course of this very arc. The neck thing may still be an issue before (and may still be in the future) but I can't remember seeing it recently.
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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Jack Bz » Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:12 pm

I'd say his recent depictions of ultra instinct are the best it's ever looked. I really don't want to go back to ultra instinct's most prominent feature being its big CGI aura.

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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by UI Peter » Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:22 pm

Kinokima wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:07 am
UI Peter wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:22 pm
There's nothing anti-hero like about Freeza in the anime. Teaming up with your teammates to pursue your goal in thw most possible way is being smart. Just because someone does something altruistic doesn't mean there being a good person.

Your description is exactly what an anti hero is
Anti-hero is a heroic character that isnt entirely morally good. ToP Freeza is simply a villain teaming up the heroes

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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by UI Peter » Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:27 pm

The Undying wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 11:23 am
UI Peter wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:11 pm
Seriously, you sound like a biased one sided manga fanboy
Not at all surprised that you'd immediately hurl insults (as you've been doing throughout this thread you've created) in lieu of engaging in good faith.

Sadala Elite did the same thing before he was banned, and before you registered. I found it curious that your posting styles, spelling/grammatical errors and thread activities were identical, so I looked up your post histories and, surely enough, found identical posts as well.

I don't think anything more needs to be said.
Who's Sadala Elite and what same post? And you haven't even bothered to addressed anything I said, you only made false claims to deflect.

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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by UI Peter » Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:32 pm

The Undying wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:57 am
"Opinions are bad, mkay?" is basically what I'm getting from this thread.

I could write essays regarding why I think Naruto is derivative drivel that stopped being decent or even thematically consistent after the Chuunin exams, why One Piece is the epitome of excessive bloat from its art/paneling down to its very story structure, and why Attack on Titan completely fails at what it sets out to achieve. I could go even further and explain why DB's modern contemporaries not only took all the wrong lessons from it, but to this day are (ironically) mocked by the very work that influenced them.

I won't, because none of it really matters. None of it matters because there's no genuine discussion to be had here. If anyone doesn't immediately concur, they're "fanboys" that need to "admit" things they obviously disagree with; that's the end of it. This is in such bad faith, and is generally the kind of discourse I'd expect from Twitter rather than Kanzenshuu.

What a pointless topic.
Your whole post here itself is example of "opinions are bad" smh, and its yet another faux-intellectual attempt to deflect criticism of Super & Toyotaro in bad faith.

Also, your opinions above about Naruto (what is so thematically inconsistent about it?), One Piece (who is the story "bloated"?) and Attack on Titan (what does it fail to attempt?) is easily objectively false (and if you could make a full essay about your views then why haven't you?) and are all objectively better than most of DB.

Most modern Shonen is better than Super, and DB on the whole isn't as self-aware nor as deconstructive as you make it sound. It's a mainly straight forward early shonen series that Toriyama himself said has no message nor major themes.

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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Kinokima » Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:42 am

UI Peter wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:22 pm
Kinokima wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:07 am
UI Peter wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:22 pm
There's nothing anti-hero like about Freeza in the anime. Teaming up with your teammates to pursue your goal in thw most possible way is being smart. Just because someone does something altruistic doesn't mean there being a good person.

Your description is exactly what an anti hero is
Anti-hero is a heroic character that isnt entirely morally good. ToP Freeza is simply a villain teaming up the heroes
A villain teaming up with the heroes for their own purposes but who helps the good guys is an anti-hero. They don’t have to be “heroic” or on the verge of redemption. An anti-hero has the opposite attributes of a traditional hero

Your definition is not the only definition of an anti hero. It’s way broader of a term than you assume.

And yes Freeza is still a villain but in the TOP arc he did not play the villain role. If he had betrayed his team he would have been the villain but his actions only helped the team even if his primary purpose was to serve himself.

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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:48 am

UI Peter wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:32 pm
Also, your opinions above about Naruto (what is so thematically inconsistent about it?), One Piece (who is the story "bloated"?) and Attack on Titan (what does it fail to attempt?) is easily objectively false (and if you could make a full essay about your views then why haven't you?) and are all objectively better than most of DB.

Most modern Shonen is better than Super, and DB on the whole isn't as self-aware nor as deconstructive as you make it sound. It's a mainly straight forward early shonen series that Toriyama himself said has no message nor major themes.
How are any of those "objectively" better than DB? By what metrics?
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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Psajdak » Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:22 am

Goku is someone one could call an antihero.

Freeza was just helping so that he could get resurrected; there was nothing heroic about him, although I do think he isn't a coward.

Just because DBS managed to make him likeable, doesn't mean he is antihero.

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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by Kinokima » Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:19 pm

Psajdak wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:22 am
Goku is someone one could call an antihero.

Freeza was just helping so that he could get resurrected; there was nothing heroic about him, although I do think he isn't a coward.

Just because DBS managed to make him likeable, doesn't mean he is antihero.

Being likable or not likable has nothing to do with being an Anti-Hero

Again being an Anti-Hero does not mean being “heroic” it’s someone who will do the right thing but often for the wrong reason and who lacks conventional heroic attributes. That’s fits Freeza to a tee in the TOP. And yes a characters role can change throughout the story so just because Freeza went back to being a villain after the TOP who opposes the heroes the fact that he worked together with Goku and Co and even helped beat Jiren in the end makes him an anti-hero for that arc. His reasons being impure don’t make him less of anti-Hero.

I wouldn’t call Goku an Anti-Hero. He’s not a Super Hero who fights for justice but he still has all the qualities of someone you would call a Hero. He still has courage and noble qualities and still fights to save his friends when they are in danger. Just because he doesn’t set out to specifically right the all the wrongs of the world doesn’t mean he isn’t a Hero. And yes he’s a bit flawed and can sometimes make the wrong decision but I don’t think a flawed hero is necessarily an anti-hero but Its an interesting thought.

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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by The Undying » Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:38 pm

UI Peter wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:27 pm
Who's Sadala Elite and what same post?
Good one. I don't know why you're feigning, but this took me maybe 5 minutes:

Sadala Elite wrote: Android 21 is overall the best Modern DB character (aka anyone introduced since Yo Son Goku & Friends in 2008), and is more likeable than 90% of the classic cast.
UI Peter wrote: Shallot & Android 21 are better characters than 99% of the canon modern characters (anyone introduced since Battle of Gods) and 90% of the classic cast.

Sadala Elite wrote: 2 Base Theory is a debunked myth. Its nothing more than just a headcanon excuse to downplay certain characters
UI Peter wrote: 2 Base Theory is nothing more than an excuse to downplay certain characters

Sadala Elite wrote: Mr. Satan (from a writing standpoint) is the most underrated character in the franchise, and ties with Vegeta as the best writen character of the Buu Saga
UI Peter wrote: Buu Saga Vegeta is easily the greatest written character in the whole franchise.

But know I see Mr. Satan as the 2nd best written character of the Buu saga

That's just in addition to both of you having an overreliance on putting your responses inside quotes (in bold) when you're replying to longer posts instead of outside as is normal, both of you using "smh" constantly at the end of sentences, both of you frequenting the same few threads, and both of you posting the exact same image links.

But again, I don't play this game with people who can't conduct themselves on a forum and regularly insult other users with ad hominem attacks. I'm putting you on mute so I don't have to interact with you anymore.

If anyone else needs me to elaborate further on DB-related posts I've made, I'd be more than happy to do so.
Last edited by The Undying on Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by UI Peter » Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:04 pm

The Undying wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:38 pm
UI Peter wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:27 pm
Who's Sadala Elite and what same post?
Good one. I don't know why you're feigning, but this took me maybe 5 minutes:

Sadala Elite wrote: Android 21 is overall the best Modern DB character (aka anyone introduced since Yo Son Goku & Friends in 2008), and is more likeable than 90% of the classic cast.
UI Peter wrote: Shallot & Android 21 are better characters than 99% of the canon modern characters (anyone introduced since Battle of Gods) and 90% of the classic cast.

Sadala Elite wrote: 2 Base Theory is a debunked myth. Its nothing more than just a headcanon excuse to downplay certain characters
UI Peter wrote: 2 Base Theory is nothing more than an excuse to downplay certain characters

Sadala Elite wrote: Mr. Satan (from a writing standpoint) is the most underrated character in the franchise, and ties with Vegeta as the best writen character of the Buu Saga
UI Peter wrote: Buu Saga Vegeta is easily the greatest written character in the whole franchise.

But know I see Mr. Satan as the 2nd best written character of the Buu saga

That's just in addition to your overreliance on putting your responses inside quotes (in bold) when you're replying to longer posts instead of outside as is normal, using "smh" constantly at the end of sentences, frequenting the same few threads, and posting the exact same image links.

But again, I don't play this game with people who can't conduct themselves on a forum and regularly insult other users with ad hominem attacks. I'm putting you on mute so I don't have to interact with you anymore.

If anyone else needs me to elaborate further on DB-related posts I've made, I'd be more than happy to do so.
Those quotes you used are common opinions, and again, you dodged my arguments because you can't refute them and admit you're wrong. Muting someone because you disagree with them is pathetic, and I never made any insults.

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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a terrible writer.

Post by UI Peter » Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:08 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:48 am
UI Peter wrote:
Tue Oct 27, 2020 10:32 pm
Also, your opinions above about Naruto (what is so thematically inconsistent about it?), One Piece (who is the story "bloated"?) and Attack on Titan (what does it fail to attempt?) is easily objectively false (and if you could make a full essay about your views then why haven't you?) and are all objectively better than most of DB.

Most modern Shonen is better than Super, and DB on the whole isn't as self-aware nor as deconstructive as you make it sound. It's a mainly straight forward early shonen series that Toriyama himself said has no message nor major themes.
How are any of those "objectively" better than DB? By what metrics?
General storytelling, character writing, worldbuilding and in the case of AoT and Naruto, better artwork on average.

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