I really don’t understand the sheer outrage...

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I really don’t understand the sheer outrage...

Post by GodVegetto91 » Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:01 am

SPOILERS

So Goku did a dumb thing.. Okay, I agree.

Was it dumb and stupid? Yes.

Was it ignorant aswell? Yes.

But it’s not like it’s completely out of Goku’s character to do such a thing. I agree that at this point in the story that Goku should have learned his lesson by now, yet he didn’t. Is it bad writing? Yes, it is. Could Toyotaro have chosen a better way to have Moro heal himself up? Yes..

But it’s not the worst thing there is, and it’s not that out of character either. This is Goku we’re talking about here. Someone who always wants to show mercy to his opponents and wants to give them another chance. Someone who also wants to keep them around to fight against and test his powers even further. (Yes, a very selfish thing) But don’t act like this is anything new, and certainly not THE END OF THE WORLD as far as Dragon Ball is concerned. But people are really overreacting here and are somehow very surprised.

Do I like what happened? No.

Does it bother me to the point where I will give up on Dragon Ball altogether? Hell no!

As far as I’m concerned, nothing can make me quit on Dragon Ball now UNLESS they were to somehow take Goku’s Ultra Instinct or God ki away for good. Then I’d be really pissed!

I think people are too obsessed with “character development” on here. And if you are too obsessed with that, you’re setting yourself up for dissapointment!
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Re: I really don’t understand the sheer outrage...

Post by omaro34 » Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:24 am

No one is asking for complex character development in a show like this.

Is it too much to ask that Goku should learn from previous mistakes? I don't think it is. I'm not outraged at all, I'm just telling you how i see it and i understand why fans are upset.

Goku giving a senzu bean to Moro made Meerus' death scene completely useless. He sacrificed himself so you can beat him at all costs, he was willing to have himself get erased for that to happen. And Goku responds by doing this?

I don't care if Goku beats Moro anyway, its still a stupid move and there's no way around that. Old ideas and plots are being recycled too much in modern Dragonball, its so unoriginal and uncreative.

I personally don't care all that much since i never was a fan of modern Dragonball, but I think fans are just frustrated that they wait a month in anticipation and it ends up in dumb shit like this.
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Re: I really don’t understand the sheer outrage...

Post by Matches Malone » Wed Oct 14, 2020 3:30 am

I posted this in the manga's topic, and I think it fits here as well.

"What I loved in the original manga was Goku's slow evolution from being someone no one took seriously to gradually becoming the group's leader through his many achievements. You look at him now and wonder how on earth anyone can take him seriously, much less follow him as a leader. All he's done since this revival started was fail, most of the time intentionally. I think someone saw the positive reception to him losing against Beerus and decided to have that be the default outcome of all his fights, just one failure after another. The reason it worked was because it wasn't the norm, now it's just tiring and predictable".

I don't mind characters failing, as Goku did many times in the original manga, but it was balanced. I can't say that about Goku now, as he's yet to win a single major fight since this revival began. The manga took things a step further by taking away his victory against Kefla. You can't have your main character fail this many times and expect fans to be OK with it.

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Re: I really don’t understand the sheer outrage...

Post by Lionel » Wed Oct 14, 2020 4:24 am

Goku's acts of personality have seemed like a dual-personality outburst instead of a consistent facet to who he is as a person. Sure, in the early arcs of DBZ he shied away from killing whenever possible. Many fans theorise that it may have been a byproduct of his tutelage under Kami. But come the Cell arc and he seems less eager to jeapordise the security of the galaxy by allowing a threat to continue live. A senu bean being portioned out to Cell to help indulge what he feels is a foregone conclusion is a blemish to this more sobering take on Goku's rules of warfare for the villain but not an irreconcilable contradiction. Good Buu's survival is the closest he's come to exhibiting mercy in the more recent material but even then Buu had already displayed a willingness to turn away from his wanton destruction and he even proved pivotal in the fight against Kid Buu.

Moro doesn't have any redeeming features -- for millions of years he's retained his gluttonous desire to see universal life consumed by him with nary a moment given on the loss of life he's inflicting on so many. It was his subordinates who came the closest to appealing to whatever empathetic bone he may have in his body and look how that's turned out. Daimou exhibited more selflessness towards his underlings than Moro. I think the "best" outcome for Moro would be him returning to prison and rotting away until he dies -- that is if you want to call solitary confinement with only a daily meal and a place to sleep a merciful outcome.

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Re: I really don’t understand the sheer outrage...

Post by GodVegetto91 » Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:07 am

I mean, I agree with the criticism.. Don’t get me wrong! I think Toyotaro deserves it. But what I am mainly addressing here is the sheer outrage from some fans claiming that it’s LITERALLY THE END OF THE WORLD! as far as Dragon Ball is concerned. And how they were going to give up on Dragon Ball ENTIRELY because of it.
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Re: I really don’t understand the sheer outrage...

Post by Psajdak » Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:14 am

The only part of Super where Goku showed some trace of having a brain was when he visited Freeza in hell.

It truly seemed like Moron Goku is just a mask.

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Re: I really don’t understand the sheer outrage...

Post by TheMikado » Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:21 am

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:07 am
I mean, I agree with the criticism.. Don’t get me wrong! I think Toyotaro deserves it. But what I am mainly addressing here is the sheer outrage from some fans claiming that it’s LITERALLY THE END OF THE WORLD! as far as Dragon Ball is concerned. And how they were going to give up on Dragon Ball ENTIRELY because of it.
I’ve already given up on Dragonball. I never likes the SSJG concept and nearly barfed about SSJB. I was down on it since Future Trunks and Goku Black and checked out during the Tournament of Power where Goku was warned, (yet again) to not go meddling in things and risking the entire multiverse. I’m done and I’m tired. The “same with a twist” isn’t working for me. There’s far far too much other entertainment out there to waste time on this.

As far as the outrage, I think people are more disappointed that this will be the legacy Dragonball leaves and helps boost the argument by detractors that DB was “never good”.

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Re: I really don’t understand the sheer outrage...

Post by mute_proxy » Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:27 am

I'm just happy people aren't blaming Toriyama's supervision, the pressure and Toyo's work conditions for once. People don't think it's someone else's fault this time.

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Re: I really don’t understand the sheer outrage...

Post by GodVegetto91 » Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:27 am

TheMikado wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:21 am
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:07 am
I mean, I agree with the criticism.. Don’t get me wrong! I think Toyotaro deserves it. But what I am mainly addressing here is the sheer outrage from some fans claiming that it’s LITERALLY THE END OF THE WORLD! as far as Dragon Ball is concerned. And how they were going to give up on Dragon Ball ENTIRELY because of it.
I’ve already given up on Dragonball. I never likes the SSJG concept and nearly barfed about SSJB. I was down on it since Future Trunks and Goku Black and checked out during the Tournament of Power where Goku was warned, (yet again) to not go meddling in things and risking the entire multiverse. I’m done and I’m tired. The “same with a twist” isn’t working for me. There’s far far too much other entertainment out there to waste time on this.

As far as the outrage, I think people are more disappointed that this will be the legacy Dragonball leaves and helps boost the argument by detractors that DB was “never good”.
I mean, you’re entitled to your opinion and actions sure. I understand some people are done with it. But what I’m actually talking about is the fact that people were SURPRISED by what happened this chapter.

Didn’t people expect at least THE POSSIBILITY of Goku doing such a thing? Especially when he’s done many stupid things in Super before, for me, at least, almost nothing surprises me anymore!
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Re: I really don’t understand the sheer outrage...

Post by Matches Malone » Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:50 am

TheMikado wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:21 am
I’ve already given up on Dragon ball. There’s far far too much other entertainment out there to waste time on this.
Same here, I keep up with it but I haven't invested in anything outside of the 3 new movies. I never thought the day would come when I wouldn't buy new DB content, but it's here, they made it possible somehow.
TheMikado wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:21 am
I think people are more disappointed that this will be the legacy Dragonball leaves and helps boost the argument by detractors that DB was “never good”.
Definitely. Definitely. A lot of people like to point to GT, and to a lesser extent the Buu arc as to when DB went downhill, but both got nothing on modern DB when it comes to shitting the bed. The amount of mistakes terrible decisions made in nearly every story is just mind blowing to me. It's like they're trying to see how bad they can get before fans push back.
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:27 am
Didn’t people expect at least THE POSSIBILITY of Goku doing such a thing? Especially when he’s done many stupid things in Super before, for me, at least, almost nothing surprises me anymore!
I expected the writers to do better, and this is coming from someone who has the least expectations from them, yet they still somehow managed to surprise me.

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Re: I really don’t understand the sheer outrage...

Post by Rebel Instinct » Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:09 am

mute_proxy wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:27 am
I'm just happy people aren't blaming Toriyama's supervision, the pressure and Toyo's work conditions for once. People don't think it's someone else's fault this time.
You must've felt pretty smug and self-assured after posting the above, since you felt like people had finally "validated" your irrational hatred and bias, but fortunately reality disagrees.

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It's people riveting on their chance to feel validated in their opinion; to attack the "manga fans" (whatever that means) to prove themselves. My assumption is that everyone here is a Dragon Ball fan, capable of having discussions as equals and not segregate ourselves into little sectors trying to be the "superior faction", ignoring arguments, politeness and even common sense (like having all the information at hand).

Clearly I am mistaken.

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Re: I really don’t understand the sheer outrage...

Post by mute_proxy » Wed Oct 14, 2020 11:58 am

Rebel Instinct wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:09 am
You must've felt pretty smug and self-assured after posting the above, since you felt like people had finally "validated" your irrational hatred and bias, but fortunately reality disagrees.
I didn't feel much of anything really, even though I'm not a big fan of the manga, I was making an observation on all the reactions around here. Your attempt at rustling my jimmies has not gone unnoticed though, so good on you I guess?

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Re: I really don’t understand the sheer outrage...

Post by TheMikado » Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:30 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:27 am
TheMikado wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:21 am
GodVegetto91 wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:07 am
I mean, I agree with the criticism.. Don’t get me wrong! I think Toyotaro deserves it. But what I am mainly addressing here is the sheer outrage from some fans claiming that it’s LITERALLY THE END OF THE WORLD! as far as Dragon Ball is concerned. And how they were going to give up on Dragon Ball ENTIRELY because of it.
I’ve already given up on Dragonball. I never likes the SSJG concept and nearly barfed about SSJB. I was down on it since Future Trunks and Goku Black and checked out during the Tournament of Power where Goku was warned, (yet again) to not go meddling in things and risking the entire multiverse. I’m done and I’m tired. The “same with a twist” isn’t working for me. There’s far far too much other entertainment out there to waste time on this.

As far as the outrage, I think people are more disappointed that this will be the legacy Dragonball leaves and helps boost the argument by detractors that DB was “never good”.
I mean, you’re entitled to your opinion and actions sure. I understand some people are done with it. But what I’m actually talking about is the fact that people were SURPRISED by what happened this chapter.

Didn’t people expect at least THE POSSIBILITY of Goku doing such a thing? Especially when he’s done many stupid things in Super before, for me, at least, almost nothing surprises me anymore!
The surprise is everyone involved being stupid enough to do the same stupid thing all over again and that Goku is being written like an idiot.

Surprised Goku didn’t learn his lesson last time
Surprised no one straight up stopped him based on last time
Surprised the writer would rehash the same plot points
Surprised Toriyama would allow the rehash
Surprised the fandom would defend it

So yeah lots of surprises there from everyone involved in and out of universe

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Re: I really don’t understand the sheer outrage...

Post by Matches Malone » Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:15 am

TheMikado wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 12:30 pm
Surprised the writer would rehash the same plot points
Surprised the fandom would defend it
Modern DB, with rare exceptions, has just been one big rehash of what came before it. The only way that changes is for a complete new team of writers taking over the franchise who can actually tell new stories.

To be fair, the people defending it are in the minority, thankfully.

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Re: I really don’t understand the sheer outrage...

Post by Cursed Lemon » Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:50 am

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:01 am
As far as I’m concerned, nothing can make me quit on Dragon Ball now UNLESS they were to somehow take Goku’s Ultra Instinct or God ki brain away for good. Then I’d be really pissed!
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Re: I really don’t understand the sheer outrage...

Post by Mike XL » Thu Oct 15, 2020 12:10 pm

Goku doing ridiculous stuff is something he has always done in the series. Giving Piccolo a senzu during the 23rd World Tournament, letting Vegeta live, letting Freeza live and even giving him some of his ki, giving Cell a senzu, etc. Par for the course with this guy.

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Re: I really don’t understand the sheer outrage...

Post by coola » Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:38 pm

I'm so glad i dropped Super, Goku is downright retard, TFS understood that character much more than Toyotaro and Toriyama. Making same mistake is not just terrible, it's boring, what's the point of watching or reading, if you know characters don't change and stay same as they did?
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Re: I really don’t understand the sheer outrage...

Post by Matches Malone » Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:08 pm

coola wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:38 pm
What's the point of watching or reading, if you know characters don't change and stay same as they did?
DB is unfortunately becoming more like Superhero comics where things more or less remain unchanged. This is why I believe DB should've either remained as a complete series with the occasional movie or OVA here and there, or for the entire writing team to be changed, including Toriyama.

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Re: I really don’t understand the sheer outrage...

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:33 pm

For me personally, what's actually really disappointing is that this is the writer that Toriyama is grooming as his successor.

Toyotaro is a good artist, no denying that, and he's getting noticeably better.

But the writing and plotting he does just doesn't sit right with me; I much prefer the anime writing staff for the most part, mainly because there's some real charm and emotion to it by comparison.

This is more just a bad omen of things to come for fans who are worried; we don't really want this kind of stuff from Toyotaro to continue happening, especially if he's supposed to be the guy to take over from Toriyama.

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Re: I really don’t understand the sheer outrage...

Post by Mike XL » Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:30 pm

I don't understand all of this outrage over Goku never changing. Outside of very minor changes, he's never changed in a major way ever in the series. He's a flat hero character and always has been. He's who he always was, a kind hearted but dangerously naive combat maniac. He threatened Earth by giving Piccolo a senzu, threatened Earth and many other planets in the Universe by giving Vegeta a senzu. Wanted to spare the Ginyu force who had killed countless people across the universe, spared and even gave his energy to a Freeza, a genocidal universal tyrant who had likely slaughtered billions, if not more and had subjugated countless planets across the universe. Gave Perfect Cell a senzu in the interest of fairness when he was about to fight his own son for Gods sake. Didn't put away Majin Buu with SSJ3 because he thought the kids should do it. Was going to spare Freeza again in the DBS Freeza arc after he defeated him. Reminded Zeno about the multi Universe tournament despite Beerus and everyone elses constant warnings that Zeno is an omnipotent unpredictable loose cannon and can erase the Omniverse on a whim. Promised to revive Freeza if they won the TOP, which they did, which led to Freeza re-establishing his empire, which likely led to even more people dying and planets being subjugated.

This is who he is. Gokus character never changes. The role of his character is to be stable and change those around him, but he's not supposed to change. I'm shocked to see such surprise over this. He's not Piccolo, Tenshinhan, Vegeta, Gohan, etc. He's never had any character arc. That's why him and Freeza have always such a great dynamic, because Freeza is the exact same, except on the villain side of things. Goku is, always was, and will always be a kind hearted yet dangerously naive battle hungry maniac who would both sacrifice himself for his friends and humanity but is also capable of putting them in tremendous danger

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