I really don’t understand the sheer outrage...

[Shineman]

I'm just happy people aren't blaming Toriyama's supervision, the pressure and Toyo's work conditions for once. People don't think it's someone else's fault this time.

You must've felt pretty smug and self-assured after posting the above, since you felt like people had finally "validated" your irrational hatred and bias, but fortunately reality disagrees.

https://twitter.com/Cipher_db/status/13 ... 3715084289

Spoiler:

Now I'm not usually one to add crass little one-liners to the ends of my posts, but:
#commentsthatagedlikemilk

I read both of these above posts several times, and I'm not quite sure the what is the issue here. The user you responded in question seems to be glad that people aren't blaming Toriyama nor Toyotaro for once (although, that can be contested based on several replies in several threads, but much like the animated series without subs, the manga run with spoilers often have speculations and opinions run wild before getting the full context). Yet, you replied with something that really doesn't seems to suggest the opposite. Are you saying they are wrong for assuming people aren't blaming the writers or there's something more I'm missing here?

[Rebel Instinct]

I read both of these above posts several times, and I'm not quite sure the what is the issue here. The user you responded in question seems to be glad that people aren't blaming Toriyama nor Toyotaro for once (although, that can be contested based on several replies in several threads, but much like the animated series without subs, the manga run with spoilers often have speculations and opinions run wild before getting the full context). Yet, you replied with something that really doesn't seems to suggest the opposite. Are you saying they are wrong for assuming people aren't blaming the writers or there's something more I'm missing here?

The original post I quoted was expressing apparent glee that people were finally placing all the blame of recent events entirely on Toyotaro's shoulders. That despite it being common knowledge for years that the Galactic Patrol Prisoner arc has been a collaborative effort between Toyotaro, Toriyama and the editorial staff at V-Jump, any and all maladies that fans have taken issue with throughout the arc are Toyotaro's fault alone and none of the external factors surrounding the manga's development had anything to do with it.

Not only is that not true, it should be noted that this is far from an isolated incident - the OP has been very keen to singularly blame Toyotaro for most of the various "problems" people have with the manga. I took umbrage with this notion of foisting all of the responsibility onto one individual, when in reality that responsibility falls on an entire group. My admittedly uncharacteristically flippant comment is just a culmination of an ongoing false narrative being spun by members of the community to shame and slander a specific individual as a scapegoat for all of the complaints that people have been having.

Much of the community (including the OP) have been erroneously spreading the idea that the current arc is entirely Toyotaro's work and little, if anything, has been contributed by Toriyama. Not only has this idea been used for the last two years in an attempt to delegitimize the validity of the arc, it's primarily been used to unjustly pin the blame of any and all perceived shortcomings entirely on one person, when any blame should be shared by all parties involved - not just the fandom's favorite punching bag.

Like I mentioned earlier, I don't usually engage in such snippy retorts, but I'm frankly fed up with the lies and comically over-exaggerated irrational hatred the community collectively spews from all corners of the internet. It's embarrassing to watch unfold day in and day out, every month for literal years. Every chapter it's always the same inane nonsense and no one cares to get the facts straight before going off about the latest "controversy" and inevitably it always comes back to the monthly ritual of condemning Toyotaro for every perceived slight. It's exasperating.

[TheMikado]

I don't understand all of this outrage over Goku never changing. Outside of very minor changes, he's never changed in a major way ever in the series. He's a flat hero character and always has been. He's who he always was, a kind hearted but dangerously naive combat maniac. He threatened Earth by giving Piccolo a senzu, threatened Earth and many other planets in the Universe by giving Vegeta a senzu. Wanted to spare the Ginyu force who had killed countless people across the universe, spared and even gave his energy to a Freeza, a genocidal universal tyrant who had likely slaughtered billions, if not more and had subjugated countless planets across the universe. Gave Perfect Cell a senzu in the interest of fairness when he was about to fight his own son for Gods sake. Didn't put away Majin Buu with SSJ3 because he thought the kids should do it. Was going to spare Freeza again in the DBS Freeza arc after he defeated him. Reminded Zeno about the multi Universe tournament despite Beerus and everyone elses constant warnings that Zeno is an omnipotent unpredictable loose cannon and can erase the Omniverse on a whim. Promised to revive Freeza if they won the TOP, which they did, which led to Freeza re-establishing his empire, which likely led to even more people dying and planets being subjugated.

This is who he is. Gokus character never changes. The role of his character is to be stable and change those around him, but he's not supposed to change. I'm shocked to see such surprise over this. He's not Piccolo, Tenshinhan, Vegeta, Gohan, etc. He's never had any character arc. That's why him and Freeza have always such a great dynamic, because Freeza is the exact same, except on the villain side of things. Goku is, always was, and will always be a kind hearted yet dangerously naive battle hungry maniac who would both sacrifice himself for his friends and humanity but is also capable of putting them in tremendous danger

You’re right, Goku always sucked as a character

[The Bastard.]

I don't understand all of this outrage over Goku never changing. Outside of very minor changes, he's never changed in a major way ever in the series. He's a flat hero character and always has been. He's who he always was, a kind hearted but dangerously naive combat maniac. He threatened Earth by giving Piccolo a senzu, threatened Earth and many other planets in the Universe by giving Vegeta a senzu. Wanted to spare the Ginyu force who had killed countless people across the universe, spared and even gave his energy to a Freeza, a genocidal universal tyrant who had likely slaughtered billions, if not more and had subjugated countless planets across the universe. Gave Perfect Cell a senzu in the interest of fairness when he was about to fight his own son for Gods sake. Didn't put away Majin Buu with SSJ3 because he thought the kids should do it. Was going to spare Freeza again in the DBS Freeza arc after he defeated him. Reminded Zeno about the multi Universe tournament despite Beerus and everyone elses constant warnings that Zeno is an omnipotent unpredictable loose cannon and can erase the Omniverse on a whim. Promised to revive Freeza if they won the TOP, which they did, which led to Freeza re-establishing his empire, which likely led to even more people dying and planets being subjugated.

This is who he is. Gokus character never changes. The role of his character is to be stable and change those around him, but he's not supposed to change. I'm shocked to see such surprise over this. He's not Piccolo, Tenshinhan, Vegeta, Gohan, etc. He's never had any character arc. That's why him and Freeza have always such a great dynamic, because Freeza is the exact same, except on the villain side of things. Goku is, always was, and will always be a kind hearted yet dangerously naive battle hungry maniac who would both sacrifice himself for his friends and humanity but is also capable of putting them in tremendous danger

You’re right, Goku always sucked as a character

And you have to be blind to not see it, this is Goku's character, he will not change, just like your old dog won't learn new tricks.

[Mike XL]

I don't understand all of this outrage over Goku never changing. Outside of very minor changes, he's never changed in a major way ever in the series. He's a flat hero character and always has been. He's who he always was, a kind hearted but dangerously naive combat maniac. He threatened Earth by giving Piccolo a senzu, threatened Earth and many other planets in the Universe by giving Vegeta a senzu. Wanted to spare the Ginyu force who had killed countless people across the universe, spared and even gave his energy to a Freeza, a genocidal universal tyrant who had likely slaughtered billions, if not more and had subjugated countless planets across the universe. Gave Perfect Cell a senzu in the interest of fairness when he was about to fight his own son for Gods sake. Didn't put away Majin Buu with SSJ3 because he thought the kids should do it. Was going to spare Freeza again in the DBS Freeza arc after he defeated him. Reminded Zeno about the multi Universe tournament despite Beerus and everyone elses constant warnings that Zeno is an omnipotent unpredictable loose cannon and can erase the Omniverse on a whim. Promised to revive Freeza if they won the TOP, which they did, which led to Freeza re-establishing his empire, which likely led to even more people dying and planets being subjugated.

This is who he is. Gokus character never changes. The role of his character is to be stable and change those around him, but he's not supposed to change. I'm shocked to see such surprise over this. He's not Piccolo, Tenshinhan, Vegeta, Gohan, etc. He's never had any character arc. That's why him and Freeza have always such a great dynamic, because Freeza is the exact same, except on the villain side of things. Goku is, always was, and will always be a kind hearted yet dangerously naive battle hungry maniac who would both sacrifice himself for his friends and humanity but is also capable of putting them in tremendous danger

You’re right, Goku always sucked as a character

I don't think every character needs to have development to be a good character. Some people just are who they are for better or worse. Just like in real life. However, Goku has greatly influenced massive character development from the whole cast around him, from Yamcha, to Kuririn, Tenshinhan, Piccolo, Vegeta especially, Beerus, hell even Freeza slightly. That's Gokus role in the series, to influence others.

[UI Peter]

To all those people defending Goku's actions in the current DBS manga chapter by naming examples of Goku making similar decisions in the original manga: you guys are reaching

First, not only are you completely missing the context of those acts in the OG manga, you are missing the point of the criticism smh.

Goku giving the clearly still dangerous Moro a senzu bean when the fight is far from over is easily the dumbest thing Goku has ever done, dumber than anything he ever did in 80s/90s DB. Not only is he shooting himself (and others) in the foot, he's making a complete mockery of Merus' sacrifice. Its just the newest example of how Goku is dumbed down in Modern DB.

I can already hear the excuses and bad defenses: "but Goku gave mercy to past villains too" and "tHiS iS GoKu'S ChArAcTeR". I'm going to go through all of those past examples just to debunk this argument.

In the OG manga/Z, Goku would only offer mercy AFTER the fight is 100% over and the villain was shown to no longer be a threat. And most importantly, when he did it would never lead to negative consequences.

Piccolo Jr & Vegeta: neither character ever attempted to attack the z-fighters again after Goku let them go and they both joined the heroes in the following arc.

Freeza: This was after Freeza was cut in half and lost all of his energy and elite minions. Goku wanted him to live in fear and humiliation for the rest of his life (which for Freeza is worse than death) after the Namek fight. Freeza was no longer a threat to him at that point, further proven by how Goku easily kills him and King Cold in the Trunks timeline. This isn't even a case of "I want to fight you again someday", as Goku warned him to never see him again or else.

Cell: 1st of all, Goku had no mercy for Cell, he wanted him dead. 2nd, the only reason he gave Cell a Senzu bean was because he knew that Gohan's hidden power would be enough to overwhelm Cell anyway and that nothing would be different if Cell never got the bean. Goku planned out all of his decisions in the Cell games 10 days on advance, it wasn't naive acts of recklessness.

Buu: He had no mercy for Buu either, and only decided not to kill Fat Buu with SSJ3 because he wanted the new kids to save the day for once (because you shouldn't rely on a dead man to solve your problems). Goku saw Buu as a test for Gohan, Kid Trunks & Goten to see if they can be counted on to protect the world without him. When he saw that he they couldn't, he immediately requested to jump back into the to fray. Again, this is an example of Goku making premeditated decisions and not naive recklessness.

Throughout the OG manga/Z, we never saw Goku make the same mistake twice (you don't need character development to learn from past mistakes) and whenever Goku makes a big risk he would plan it out before hand. This is in complete contrast to the pure stupidity of DBS Goku, who constantly drops his guard in the middle of a major battle (something he never did in Z and even GT), hardly ever takes serious situations seriously, is so incompetent that he forgets to bring Senzu beans to battle and important items like the Mafuba seal, and in the DBS manga even regresses as a martial artist (Toyotaro has Goku learning things he already mastered as a Kid lol).

So no, this isn't Goku's character, this is a dumbed down, badly written flanderization of Goku's character.

Being a static, flat-character arc type character is no excuse for failing to learn from your mistakes, especially when you charcater is supposed to be a combat/martial art genius that the people count on to save the day.

Classic Goku (OG,Z,GT) actually did learn from experience and didn't repeat mistakes, and when he did make mistakes he would express genuine regret and a desire not to do it again.

Modern Goku (Super) is the exact opposite smh. He's a badly written caricature.

[UI Peter]

I posted this in the manga's topic, and I think it fits here as well.

"What I loved in the original manga was Goku's slow evolution from being someone no one took seriously to gradually becoming the group's leader through his many achievements. You look at him now and wonder how on earth anyone can take him seriously, much less follow him as a leader. All he's done since this revival started was fail, most of the time intentionally. I think someone saw the positive reception to him losing against Beerus and decided to have that be the default outcome of all his fights, just one failure after another. The reason it worked was because it wasn't the norm, now it's just tiring and predictable".

I don't mind characters failing, as Goku did many times in the original manga, but it was balanced. I can't say that about Goku now, as he's yet to win a single major fight since this revival began. The manga took things a step further by taking away his victory against Kefla. You can't have your main character fail this many times and expect fans to be OK with it.

This is exactly how I feel.

[UI Peter]

I mean, I agree with the criticism.. Don’t get me wrong! I think Toyotaro deserves it. But what I am mainly addressing here is the sheer outrage from some fans claiming that it’s LITERALLY THE END OF THE WORLD! as far as Dragon Ball is concerned. And how they were going to give up on Dragon Ball ENTIRELY because of it.

I’ve already given up on Dragonball. I never likes the SSJG concept and nearly barfed about SSJB. I was down on it since Future Trunks and Goku Black and checked out during the Tournament of Power where Goku was warned, (yet again) to not go meddling in things and risking the entire multiverse. I’m done and I’m tired. The “same with a twist” isn’t working for me. There’s far far too much other entertainment out there to waste time on this.

As far as the outrage, I think people are more disappointed that this will be the legacy Dragonball leaves and helps boost the argument by detractors that DB was “never good”.

If Dragonball is to be good again, they need to fire Toyotaro, heir a mangaka with proven storytelling skills that's a knowledgeable fan of the franchise (there's numerous Japanese Doujinshi artists that are WAY better than Toyotaro in both artwork and writing), and replace the Toei writing staff that worked on the Super anime with similar folks as above.

[Lord Beerus]

To all those people defending Goku's actions in the current DBS manga chapter by naming examples of Goku making similar decisions in the original manga: you guys are reaching

First, not only are you completely missing the context of those acts in the OG manga, you are missing the point of the criticism smh.

Goku giving the clearly still dangerous Moro a senzu bean when the fight is far from over is easily the dumbest thing Goku has ever done, dumber than anything he ever did in 80s/90s DB. Not only is he shooting himself (and others) in the foot, he's making a complete mockery of Merus' sacrifice. Its just the newest example of how Goku is dumbed down in Modern DB.

I can already hear the excuses and bad defenses: "but Goku gave mercy to past villains too" and "tHiS iS GoKu'S ChArAcTeR". I'm going to go through all of those past examples just to debunk this argument.

In the OG manga/Z, Goku would only offer mercy AFTER the fight is 100% over and the villain was shown to no longer be a threat. And most importantly, when he did it would never lead to negative consequences.

Piccolo Jr & Vegeta: neither character ever attempted to attack the z-fighters again after Goku let them go and they both joined the heroes in the following arc.

Freeza: This was after Freeza was cut in half and lost all of his energy and elite minions. Goku wanted him to live in fear and humiliation for the rest of his life (which for Freeza is worse than death) after the Namek fight. Freeza was no longer a threat to him at that point, further proven by how Goku easily kills him and King Cold in the Trunks timeline. This isn't even a case of "I want to fight you again someday", as Goku warned him to never see him again or else.

Cell: 1st of all, Goku had no mercy for Cell, he wanted him dead. 2nd, the only reason he gave Cell a Senzu bean was because he knew that Gohan's hidden power would be enough to overwhelm Cell anyway and that nothing would be different if Cell never got the bean. Goku planned out all of his decisions in the Cell games 10 days on advance, it wasn't naive acts of recklessness.

Buu: He had no mercy for Buu either, and only decided not to kill Fat Buu with SSJ3 because he wanted the new kids to save the day for once (because you shouldn't rely on a dead man to solve your problems). Goku saw Buu as a test for Gohan, Kid Trunks & Goten to see if they can be counted on to protect the world without him. When he saw that he they couldn't, he immediately requested to jump back into the to fray. Again, this is an example of Goku making premeditated decisions and not naive recklessness.

Throughout the OG manga/Z, we never saw Goku make the same mistake twice (you don't need character development to learn from past mistakes) and whenever Goku makes a big risk he would plan it out before hand. This is in complete contrast to the pure stupidity of DBS Goku, who constantly drops his guard in the middle of a major battle (something he never did in Z and even GT), hardly ever takes serious situations seriously, is so incompetent that he forgets to bring Senzu beans to battle and important items like the Mafuba seal, and in the DBS manga even regresses as a martial artist (Toyotaro has Goku learning things he already mastered as a Kid lol).

So no, this isn't Goku's character, this is a dumbed down, badly written flanderization of Goku's character.

Being a static, flat-character arc type character is no excuse for failing to learn from your mistakes, especially when you charcater is supposed to be a combat/martial art genius that the people count on to save the day.

Classic Goku (OG,Z,GT) actually did learn from experience and didn't repeat mistakes, and when he did make mistakes he would express genuine regret and a desire not to do it again.

Modern Goku (Super) is the exact opposite smh. He's a badly written caricature.

Couldn't have summed it up any better.

[Matches Malone]

If Dragonball is to be good again, they need to fire Toyotaro, heir a mangaka with proven storytelling skills that's a knowledgeable fan of the franchise (there's numerous Japanese Doujinshi artists that are WAY better than Toyotaro in both artwork and writing), and replace the Toei writing staff that worked on the Super anime with similar folks as above.

Toriyama also needs to go, as he's got all the power to make things right, yet he refuses to do so. The thing is, I know for a fact that Toriyama knows better, but I think at this point he just doesn't care.

Your long post above is great, it says everything I want to say on the matter and more.

[precita]

I assume if the Moro arc gets an anime adaption they may change this anyway, since the Super manga is very different to the anime

[Matches Malone]

I assume if the Moro arc gets an anime adaption they may change this anyway, since the Super manga is very different to the anime

The reason things were different is because both were working with Toriyama's outlines, now though, the anime will more than likely just adapt the manga as is (with some additions here and there).

[TheMikado]

To all those people defending Goku's actions in the current DBS manga chapter by naming examples of Goku making similar decisions in the original manga: you guys are reaching

First, not only are you completely missing the context of those acts in the OG manga, you are missing the point of the criticism smh.

Goku giving the clearly still dangerous Moro a senzu bean when the fight is far from over is easily the dumbest thing Goku has ever done, dumber than anything he ever did in 80s/90s DB. Not only is he shooting himself (and others) in the foot, he's making a complete mockery of Merus' sacrifice. Its just the newest example of how Goku is dumbed down in Modern DB.

I can already hear the excuses and bad defenses: "but Goku gave mercy to past villains too" and "tHiS iS GoKu'S ChArAcTeR". I'm going to go through all of those past examples just to debunk this argument.

In the OG manga/Z, Goku would only offer mercy AFTER the fight is 100% over and the villain was shown to no longer be a threat. And most importantly, when he did it would never lead to negative consequences.

Piccolo Jr & Vegeta: neither character ever attempted to attack the z-fighters again after Goku let them go and they both joined the heroes in the following arc.

Freeza: This was after Freeza was cut in half and lost all of his energy and elite minions. Goku wanted him to live in fear and humiliation for the rest of his life (which for Freeza is worse than death) after the Namek fight. Freeza was no longer a threat to him at that point, further proven by how Goku easily kills him and King Cold in the Trunks timeline. This isn't even a case of "I want to fight you again someday", as Goku warned him to never see him again or else.

Cell: 1st of all, Goku had no mercy for Cell, he wanted him dead. 2nd, the only reason he gave Cell a Senzu bean was because he knew that Gohan's hidden power would be enough to overwhelm Cell anyway and that nothing would be different if Cell never got the bean. Goku planned out all of his decisions in the Cell games 10 days on advance, it wasn't naive acts of recklessness.

Buu: He had no mercy for Buu either, and only decided not to kill Fat Buu with SSJ3 because he wanted the new kids to save the day for once (because you shouldn't rely on a dead man to solve your problems). Goku saw Buu as a test for Gohan, Kid Trunks & Goten to see if they can be counted on to protect the world without him. When he saw that he they couldn't, he immediately requested to jump back into the to fray. Again, this is an example of Goku making premeditated decisions and not naive recklessness.

Throughout the OG manga/Z, we never saw Goku make the same mistake twice (you don't need character development to learn from past mistakes) and whenever Goku makes a big risk he would plan it out before hand. This is in complete contrast to the pure stupidity of DBS Goku, who constantly drops his guard in the middle of a major battle (something he never did in Z and even GT), hardly ever takes serious situations seriously, is so incompetent that he forgets to bring Senzu beans to battle and important items like the Mafuba seal, and in the DBS manga even regresses as a martial artist (Toyotaro has Goku learning things he already mastered as a Kid lol).

So no, this isn't Goku's character, this is a dumbed down, badly written flanderization of Goku's character.

Being a static, flat-character arc type character is no excuse for failing to learn from your mistakes, especially when you charcater is supposed to be a combat/martial art genius that the people count on to save the day.

Classic Goku (OG,Z,GT) actually did learn from experience and didn't repeat mistakes, and when he did make mistakes he would express genuine regret and a desire not to do it again.

Modern Goku (Super) is the exact opposite smh. He's a badly written caricature.

Just to be clear I feel exactly the same, my comment about Goku never being a good character was tongue in cheek, especially for the crowd who think GT somehow is less consistent with its characters than Super.

[Matches Malone]

Just to be clear I feel exactly the same, my comment about Goku never being a good character was tongue in cheek, especially for the crowd who think GT somehow is less consistent with its characters than Super.

GT is pure gold compared to this nonsense. GT never, ever wrote a character as bad as Goku is currently being written. The more I look at the 2 (GT and modern DB), the more I realize that GT isn't that bad. It has issues for sure, but I think if I were to put together a list that details everything wrong with both, GT would come out with less problems. You know that somewhere in Japan GT's writers are celebrating their work finally not being looked at as the worst part of the franchise.

It will be very interesting to see how this development impacts things within the fan community moving forward, as there's a near unanimous agreement about the quality just not being there. This week's chapter will be in volume 15, so I wonder if it will impact its sales or not.

[UI Peter]

I assume if the Moro arc gets an anime adaption they may change this anyway, since the Super manga is very different to the anime

This is the best we can hope for at this point, because the manga is beyond salvation at this point smh.

[Matches Malone]

This is the best we can hope for at this point, because the manga is beyond salvation at this point smh.

I think the best we can hope for is additional material to flesh things out, but the plot points in the manga will be left the same.

[TheMikado]

Just to be clear I feel exactly the same, my comment about Goku never being a good character was tongue in cheek, especially for the crowd who think GT somehow is less consistent with its characters than Super.

GT is pure gold compared to this nonsense. GT never, ever wrote a character as bad as Goku is currently being written. The more I look at the 2 (GT and modern DB), the more I realize that GT isn't that bad. It has issues for sure, but I think if I were to put together a list that details everything wrong with both, GT would come out with less problems. You know that somewhere in Japan GT's writers are celebrating their work finally not being looked at as the worst part of the franchise.

It will be very interesting to see how this development impacts things within the fan community moving forward, as there's a near unanimous agreement about the quality just not being there. This week's chapter will be in volume 15, so I wonder if it will impact its sales or not.

Thank you, Super is so bad.....
Honestly episode 1 killed it for me. I remember distinctly, When Goku was offered the briefcase full of money and couldn’t seem to understand how much money or to do basic counting. I was like, what is this crap???? They don’t understand Goku at all.

Goku fully understood the distance of snake way and also understood mathematics and time and evidenced when he could calculate in his head the amount of time before matches so when they had him struggle with basic math I nearly kicked the screen. Super is completely unwatchable because they don’t understand the characters.

https://youtu.be/FfEKb_1BWlQ

https://youtu.be/RfvZ9rKKPqg

Coming from attempting to literally do the same thing with this( count sit-ups):

https://youtu.be/oeB_BoAXYqU

[EGonzo]

What I don't understand is people comparing this to the Cell thing. With Cell, Goku knew Gohan was strong enough to kill the android (and Goku wanted him to die). His mistake was believing Gohan loved fighting as much as Goku himself did. He gave Cell the senzu so Gohan could have a fun battle before killing him. Had he known his son hated fighting, he wouldn't have healed the android.